ACL isn't letting this drop (10 Viewers)

[Mucca Mad Boys]

But no one was worse off from the council building the stadium.

I think CCFC are worse off now because of the RICOH.

I'd rather own our own basic 23k stadium (Highfield Road) than rent a 'top notch' facility that isn't ours, get no revenues and we have to pay 1.28m (effectively c. 1.5m if you add the missed revenues) for the privilege of playing there.

 

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[fernandopartridge]

And one way to do that would be for ACL to inform the Football League that under no circumstances will the club be allowed to play at the Ricoh under SISU (after administration). That will force SISU to actually provide detailed plans and proof of funding for their new stadium, something I am sure they would rather avoid.

That wouldn't reflect back well on ACL.

 

[shropshirecov]

I think CCFC are worse off now because of the RICOH.

I'd rather own our own basic 23k stadium (Highfield Road) than rent a 'top notch' facility that isn't ours, get no revenues and we have to pay 1.28m (effectively c. 1.5m if you add the missed revenues) for the privilege of playing there.

Worse off! We're nearly out of business because of the bastard place. Take me home highfield road.

 

[shropshirecov]

That wouldn't reflect back well on ACL.

And they would go bust

 

[Sky Blues]

I think Fisher initially said something along the lines of "If we don't sort this our we could be looking at liquidation" which I think at the time was blindingly obvious.

Coventry City near administration as Ricoh Arena row rumbles on

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2013/mar/11/coventry-city-administration-ricoh-arena

James Riach
The Guardian, Monday, 11 March 2013*

Coventry City face a serious risk of entering administration next week as the saga involving rent and matchday revenue at the Ricoh Arena threatens to reach breaking point, despite only appointing a new manager last Friday.

The club's owners, Sisu, and Arena Coventry Limited, the company that owns the stadium, are still embroiled in a bitter dispute regarding revenue from the ground although ACL has made an offer that would reduce the annual rent from £1.3m to £400,000.

Coventry have agreed to that reduction although want to sign an agreement that would see the Sky Blues retain matchday revenue from the Ricoh, which currently falls into the hands of ACL, joint-owned by Coventry city council and the Higgs Trust.

Tim Fisher, the chief executive of the League One club, has warned that if negotiations are not re-established then there will be no option but to file for administration. However, ACL insists that their offer is generous and is "take it or leave it".

"ACL have been robust in their external statements that they are not in negotiations with us anymore and that negotiations have stopped," Fisher said. "We are at a tipping point and insolvent liquidation cannot be reasonably avoided.

"They need to re-enter negotiations pronto or we file. We'll have no option because there would not be reasonable probability of avoiding insolvency liquidation. We entered the twilight zone on the 22 February [when ACL said negotiations were off] and the twilight zone will become the dead of night very soon unless negotiations are re-entered. We have to show our lawyers that negotiations are ongoing."

City have been dogged by off-field problems since an ill-fated move to the Ricoh Arena from Highfield Road in 2005. The club appointed their third permanent manager of the season on Friday when their former midfielder Steven Pressley signed a three-and-a-half-year deal from Falkirk, winning his first match in charge against Sc-unithorpe United on Saturday.

Pressley follows Mark Robins and Andy Thorn but a potential push to finish in the play-off positions this season is expected to be overshadowed by serious problems off the pitch.

"We just want to be like a normal football club. A normal football club keeps all the revenues it generates on matchday. That is catering, beverages and parking revenue," Fisher added. "When somebody puts a gun in your mouth, it is no longer a negotiation, it's an execution. You either accept the deal or get out of town. The council have gone on record and said 'get out of town'. We may have to take that invitation."

 

[Sky Blues]

Natch. While I was copying and pasting that across (laborious on an iPad) MMM put it up! :facepalm:

 

[Delboycov]

Odd that is the one statement from "uncle tim", "timmy" "nice but dim Tim" that everyone says he is being honest about.

Do you still think he should resign Grendel or do you think as some do that he's playing a 'blinder'? I personally think if he steps aside then the chance of an amicable agreement to play at the Ricoh is more likely...Or have things gone too far now?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

That's how I remembered it MMM....it was a direct threat to pull the plug and whether he meant it or not ACL had no choice but to act. As TF says himself, he doesn't bluster...when he says he's going to do something he means it ;-)

Well... tbf they could have re-entered negotiations, rather than filed for administration.

 

[The Prefect]

I think ACLs tactic would be to concentrate on the 'Fit and Proper' test on ownership of a football club.

The bottom line of this sorry affair is that SISU refused to pay a lawfully owed rent. Whether the rent was too high or not it does't matter. The very fact they paid it for years is proof that the accepted it as being lawfully owed.

From the administrator's report it APPEARS that CCFC Ltd was stripped of assets and conveniently left a debt owing to ACL and SISU. In taking the club out of administration SISU can settle the debts without increasing their liability at all.

My question would be whether it is right for the Football League and FA (or whoever) to sanction ownership to owners that will pick and chose which debts they pay and then 'manufacture' an administration in order to leave ACL high a dry. Their distorted version of events regarding the accounts (lack of proper record keeping) should make a strong case IMHO. SISU's record is abysmal and the way they handled the administration appalling. Giving this club back to them seems to be the wrong thing to do.

I'm not convinced this is over. If the football league approve SISU as 'new' owners after they were responsible for this mess then that will tell you all there is to know about the Football League. I heard they have been unhappy about SISU's lack of transparency about who owns the club so I'm interested in their reaction.

SISU haven't had any money from me since the took my shares and didn't pay for them (many other shareholders actually received cheques). I have done away games when I can.

IF the club ends up with SISU - it's finished.

 

[shropshirecov]

I think ACLs tactic would be to concentrate on the 'Fit and Proper' test on ownership of a football club.

The bottom line of this sorry affair is that SISU refused to pay a lawfully owed rent. Whether the rent was too high or not it does't matter. The very fact they paid it for years is proof that the accepted it as being lawfully owed.

From the administrator's report it APPEARS that CCFC Ltd was stripped of assets and conveniently left a debt owing to ACL and SISU. In taking the club out of administration SISU can settle the debts without increasing their liability at all.

My question would be whether it is right for the Football League and FA (or whoever) to sanction ownership to owners that will pick and chose which debts they pay and then 'manufacture' an administration in order to leave ACL high a dry. Their distorted version of events regarding the accounts (lack of proper record keeping) should make a strong case IMHO. SISU's record is abysmal and the way they handled the administration appalling. Giving this club back to them seems to be the wrong thing to do.

I'm not convinced this is over. If the football league approve SISU as 'new' owners after they were responsible for this mess then that will tell you all there is to know about the Football League. I heard they have been unhappy about SISU's lack of transparency about who owns the club so I'm interested in their reaction.

SISU haven't had any money from me since the took my shares and didn't pay for them (many other shareholders actually received cheques). I have done away games when I can.

IF the club ends up with SISU - it's finished.

I agree if sisu stay its finished....also if the football club under whatever owner is forced to pay the lawfully owed rent then we're also finished

 

[Grendel]

Do you still think he should resign Grendel or do you think as some do that he's playing a 'blinder'? I personally think if he steps aside then the chance of an amicable agreement to play at the Ricoh is more likely...Or have things gone too far now?

I think he will probably be gone by the start of the season in truth.

 

[Delboycov]

Well... tbf they could have re-entered negotiations, rather than filed for administration.

They could've done NW but I'm starting to think that his widely reported inflamatory statement was all part of the great plan...a big move in this game of chess which ACL responded to in the way they expected. I think neither party give 2 craps about the fans or the club, being used by both and who are the real victims in this farce.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Well... tbf they could have re-entered negotiations, rather than filed for administration.

Stop being pedantic. No they couldn't. The directors have to act in the best interests on their business. With a threat like that, they have no choice other than to file. Whats so hard to understand?

 

[Delboycov]

I think he will probably be gone by the start of the season in truth.

I hope you're right because if we are stuck with SISU for any length of time...and I sincerely hope we won't be... I think the involvement of a man who has alienated fans and stakeholders alike can only do great harm to any chance of future progress.

 

[italiahorse]

wrong it was ACL/PWKH who first mentioned liquidation not that he will now admit to it.

It was TF, you have to own the business to liquidate it. TF bluff meant that ACL had to protect their losses and in effectively stop the liquidation. I guess SISU could just liquidate but administration gives an option for others to buy.

 

[edgy]

Surely you mean our precious football club? Who cares about SISU, or ACL for that matter.

What is weird is the sense of loyalty people feel toward a completely separate 3rd party corporate entity like ACL. It is very odd. Somebody on here once said they sided with ACL in the dispute because SISU had a 'moral and legal obligation to pay them'. Well, Pompey had a legal and moral obligation to pay the taxman but I didn't see many Pompey fans siding with HMRC and urging them to force the club they supported out of business. That would be ludicrous wouldn't it? Only at Coventry City would that happen. And it did.

The most baffling part of this whole sorry shitfest was how so many sided with ACL during the rent dispute - perhaps if we'd been a bit more united at that point we'd be looking forward to a season at the Ricoh, and on much better financial terms.

Even now people are urging ACL to go after the club. Unbelievable. Here's an idea, why don't we suggest they TALK to SISU and we can get back to being a normal football club? Perhaps then somebody might actually think about trying to fecking buy it eh?

But no, let's destabalise the club even further. feck-wits.

Best post on here in many a moon. Just wish more would consider what they are saying & doing.

 

[Grendel]

I hope you're right because if we are stuck with SISU for any length of time...and I sincerely hope we won't be... I think the involvement of a man who has alienated fans and stakeholders alike can only do great harm to any chance of future progress.

He will have been given a mission this year to amalgamate ACL with SISU and then walk. That's why he has been firing bullets for months. OSB may be right - Waggott could fill the breach.

 

[edgy]

He will have been given a mission this year to amalgamate ACL with SISU and then walk. That's why he has been firing bullets for months. OSB may be right - Waggott could fill the breach.

Would be happy with that outcome. Football club gets its stadium & a seemingly impressive Waggott takes the mantle.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Stop being pedantic. No they couldn't. The directors have to act in the best interests on their business. With a threat like that, they have no choice other than to file. Whats so hard to understand?

Well they could. It's not being pedantic to point out there was more than one option.

It's closed minded to refuse to acknowledge that.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

He will have been given a mission this year to amalgamate ACL with SISU and then walk. That's why he has been firing bullets for months. OSB may be right - Waggott could fill the breach.

It does seem rational. Well, as rational as anything is here. Am assuming he doesn't fancy another job in football mind you!

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Well they could. It's not being pedantic to point out there was more than one option.

It's closed minded to refuse to acknowledge that.

It's evident your screen name must be ironic with regard your command of business law. You're evidently a fan. You tell us so. Stick to football related fare, as when you stray away, you're often floundering dear chap

 

[Deleted member 5849]

It's evident your screen name must be ironic with regard your command of business law. You're evidently a fan. You tell us so. Stick to football related fare, as when you stray away, you're often floundering dear chap

No need to be quite so hectoring and smug eh? Those who think they know more than others, usually end up knowing less.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It's evident your screen name must be ironic with regard your command of business law. You're evidently a fan. You tell us so. Stick to football related fare, as when you stray away, you're often floundering dear chap

With respect MMM I doubt many fans of other teams have to pass a finance and accounting exam to follow their clubs.

 

[fernandopartridge]

It's evident your screen name must be ironic with regard your command of business law. You're evidently a fan. You tell us so. Stick to football related fare, as when you stray away, you're often floundering dear chap

Yet another one of your cringeworthy patronising posts. ACL filing for administration may not have made that much difference, they'd still be a comparatively small creditor.

There would still be a distinct possibility that they'd get next to fuck all in the administration.

They'd be an even greater possibility that the club would be wound up.

 

[Florence1898]

Now the fun begins, the web of financial movements between countries, legal entities, and individuals will begin to unravel, there are many connections and they all lead back to the debt market. The investigators are starting to break through this tangled organised industry, it will not be too long before names start being exposed.

 

[Skybluesquirrel]

With respect MMM I doubt many fans of other teams have to pass a finance and accounting exam to follow their clubs.

That, in my view, is one very good reason to intensely dislike the whole process. Its a shite state of affairs, (and a shite profession) but in order to understand modern football, we are forced as fans to engage with the economics and the finance of football.

Elite sport is all about money. TV rights, sponsorship, product endorsement etc etc. How did that happen? It used to be enjoyable.

The first club to ever charge an entrance fee was Aston sodding Villa. Thats where it all starts.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

That, in my view, is one very good reason to intensely dislike the whole process. Its a shite state of affairs, (and a shite profession) but in order to understand modern football, we are forced as fans to engage with the economics and the finance of football.

Elite sport is all about money. TV rights, sponsorship, product endorsement etc etc. How did that happen? It used to be enjoyable.

The first club to ever charge an entrance fee was Aston sodding Villa. Thats where it all starts.

I feel for the likes of OSB who like all of us just want a half decent team to support without having his day job become part of the equation. Thankfully Timmy is yet to resort to chemical warfare so I should be safe on that

 

[georgehudson]

in terms of product, what would any prospective investor, sponsorship, or otherwise,
put their money into ?
who is likely to be the shirt sponsor for the coming season ?
the owners have continually shamed themselves with silence, untruths, etc., etc.,
& manipulated the legal system to suit their own aims,
fans have been treated like ****,
yet some bleat on about giving them another chance,
& TF gives out guff to the effect that this is all part of a 10 yr plan,
so, 6yrs in, with a ground share for 3yrs to come,
whilst a new ground is built = 9yrs, not a long time to get back to the 'prem' left then,
still the administrator has done a great job, £600,000 for 8wks work,
over to the FA for a reasoned explanation

 

[Paxman II]

I see ferret has save me a lot of writing.

 

[letsallsingtogether]

Sisu and ACL hate each other doesn't matter where your loyalties lie. If ACL give in to SISU where does it stop. Give them a even cheaper rent give them half of the takings for something they don't own/can't afford to buy!
So in 6 months time when they are still loosing money and they say they are being crippled by the rent you give them another discount?

Sorry but they have done this to themselves they have treated the council the Trust and ACL the same as they have treated the Fans with utter contempt give them fuck all except the boot

:blue::blue:

Surely you mean our precious football club? Who cares about SISU, or ACL for that matter.

What is weird is the sense of loyalty people feel toward a completely separate 3rd party corporate entity like ACL. It is very odd. Somebody on here once said they sided with ACL in the dispute because SISU had a 'moral and legal obligation to pay them'. Well, Pompey had a legal and moral obligation to pay the taxman but I didn't see many Pompey fans siding with HMRC and urging them to force the club they supported out of business. That would be ludicrous wouldn't it? Only at Coventry City would that happen. And it did.

The most baffling part of this whole sorry shitfest was how so many sided with ACL during the rent dispute - perhaps if we'd been a bit more united at that point we'd be looking forward to a season at the Ricoh, and on much better financial terms.

Even now people are urging ACL to go after the club. Unbelievable. Here's an idea, why don't we suggest they TALK to SISU and we can get back to being a normal football club? Perhaps then somebody might actually think about trying to fucking buy it eh?

But no, let's destabalise the club even further. Fuck-wits.

 

[James Smith]

wrong it was ACL/PWKH who first mentioned liquidation not that he will now admit to it.

I've looked into this because I did remember that there was a statement from ACL/the council on here which mentioned liquidation. PWKH made a post on here on the 15th of January 2013 which was basically that statement.

It has been difficult keeping quiet, having information and not being able to share it. The Coventry Telegraph will have more I am sure about what has happened this afternoon.

We have been working hard to do what any business should do when faced with such a serious challenge as ACL has faced with Sisu’s rent strike. I am sure that many of you will have heard the news that Coventry City Council has made an agreement with Yorkshire Bank for the Council to pay off the debt Arena Coventry Limited previously owed to the Bank. The Council will now make a loan to ACL of £14.4m, which will make repayments to the Council at an interest rate much more affordable for ACL as a business.

You will have other questions about how much, how long, what rate of interest etc, at the moment I am unable to answer as they remain under commercial confidentiality.
The agreement gives ACL’s already strong business even more stability. It means that the Board of Directors can plan for the long term with more confidence than ever. The people of Coventry will also benefit as the interest on the repayments made by ACL will be available to the Council to spend on goods and services.

This is a decisive move by the Council to secure the long-term future of the Ricoh Arena as an asset for the City of Coventry and a decision which ought to be welcomed and applauded by everyone posting on this forum.

I am already receiving calls and messages asking me what this means with regard to the situation with Coventry City Football Club. The short answer is that nothing has changed. CCFC, under the ownership of Joy Seppala and her Sisu staff including Tim Fisher, has a legal obligation to pay its stadium rent.

The Board of ACL has already issued a Statutory Demand for payment, the deadline for which has long since passed, and is now looking at its legal options. These legal options include petitioning the courts to grant an order to wind up CCFC and starting off the process of placing the Club into compulsory liquidation.

Nobody wants this to be the outcome, but the clock is ticking and now is the time when Joy Seppala and her colleagues need finally to take responsibility for their actions, pay the rent which is lawfully owed, and come to the table with the Board of ACL to present a realistic business and financing plan which will safeguard the future of CCFC.
And why wouldn’t they want to do this? The City Council has just presented them with an opportunity to build a better business relationship with an outstanding business which is in an enviable and sustainable financial position. Everyone at ACL is absolutely committed to seeing the Sky Blues play at the Ricoh Arena for many years to come.

My appeal to Sisu is therefore a simple one; please come and have a sensible conversation. And please stop trying to blame all the Club’s financial problems on the stadium rent, while drawing misleading and inaccurate comparisons between the rent paid by CCFC and that paid by other Football League One clubs, none of whom enjoy the benefits of a facility comparable to the Ricoh Arena.

From the Higgs Charity’s perspective as a shareholder, we are completely in support of the Council’s move today. I am sure there will be speculation also about the Charity’s intentions in relation to holding on to its stake holding in ACL. Some of you may even feel that this would be a sensible time for Sisu to make a realistic offer to assume the Charity’s share.

Again our position is unchanged. The trustees are proud to be part of ACL and we’re committed to the Arena for as long as it takes. We won’t be bullied or harassed by anyone trying to take our share in the business for less than its true value. But, if any third party makes a sensible and realistic offer, then we will of course give it the consideration it merits.

Once again I apologise for the length of this update. I would of course have preferred to share this sooner but I am bound by the obligations of the law and of confidentiality on this hugely sensitive matter. As ever, I am happy to answer questions where I am able to do so.

So yes they mentioned it but the fact that they mentioned it was only as an option and not something they were actively considering.

Now PWKH then went on to explain this in another post after being accused of threatening to liquidate the club

PWKH on here said they have started the process to put CCFC into compulsory liquidation. There's no argument here, they are his words, not mine!

As Torch said, admin is the first stage which COULD escalate to liquidation, therefore, the process of liquidation has begun, and was initiated by ACL. Again, there's no argument here, it is fact, not opinion!

That is not what I said. The fact is that ACL have started a process that could lead to Administration. Should no buyer be found, or should the secured creditors resist every attempt of an Administrator then it would probably lead to liquidation. That is usually unlikely. I agree with Torch and others that in this case where the secured creditor is Sisu that it is much more likely. But please read back when you think that you are quoting me to see that you actually are...

Now contrast this with the comments the leader of our beloved football club said (as has been mentioned before) quoted here in the Guardian from Monday 11 March 2013

"ACL have been robust in their external statements that they are not in negotiations with us anymore and that negotiations have stopped," Fisher said. "We are at a tipping point and insolvent liquidation cannot be reasonably avoided.
"They need to re-enter negotiations pronto or we file. We'll have no option because there would not be reasonable probability of avoiding insolvency liquidation. We entered the twilight zone on the 22 February [when ACL said negotiations were off] and the twilight zone will become the dead of night very soon unless negotiations are re-entered. We have to show our lawyers that negotiations are ongoing."

(My Bolding)

So to my mind at any rate PWKH is saying at the start of the year that they have and are considering the legal options open to them which include but are not limited to liquidation and Tim in March is saying "insolvent liquidation cannot be reasonably avoided". If I was a company director (I'd earn a hell of a lot more for starters ) I couldn't take a statment like that as being a joke, the shareholders who are the ultimate owners in any business would kill me. There would also probably be legal action and that's not something I'd want hanging over me.

Tim may have been shouting his mouth off again without much thought to what he was saying, or he knew precisely what he was saying which got us to the situation we are in now. Either way I do wish he and SISU would disappear pronto and let someone else who know what they're doing own our club.

 

[Hobo]

Originally Posted by Mary_Mungo_Midge:
No. You're wrong. Fisher in the Guardian:

"ACL have been robust in their external statements that they are not in negotiations with us anymore and that negotiations have stopped," Fisher said. "We are at a tipping point and insolvent liquidation cannot be reasonably avoided.

"They need to re-enter negotiations pronto or we file. We'll have no option because there would not be reasonable probability of avoiding insolvency liquidation. We entered the twilight zone on the 22 February [when ACL said negotiations were off] and the twilight zone will become the dead of night very soon unless negotiations are re-entered. We have to show our lawyers that negotiations are ongoing."
Odd that is the one statement from "uncle tim", "timmy" "nice but dim Tim" that everyone says he is being honest about.

You might be right Grendel, it may have been more Fisher bullshit. But as ACL said at the time, they could not take the chance. If it wasn't a bluff and they did liquidate the club was gone for good, no going back. They felt, and I don't think they could think anything else, they had to act and file for administration. They weren't really chasing debt they were trying to safe guard the clubs future.

I can't see how anyone can have faith in Sisu if they research their history. Yes the previous running of the club was far from perfect. But Sisu have been here sometime now they have to take responsibility for their watch. They can't keep issuing reactive statements blaming everyone else.

A successful future will only dawn when they go.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Originally Posted by Mary_Mungo_Midge:
No. You're wrong. Fisher in the Guardian:

"ACL have been robust in their external statements that they are not in negotiations with us anymore and that negotiations have stopped," Fisher said. "We are at a tipping point and insolvent liquidation cannot be reasonably avoided.

"They need to re-enter negotiations pronto or we file. We'll have no option because there would not be reasonable probability of avoiding insolvency liquidation. We entered the twilight zone on the 22 February [when ACL said negotiations were off] and the twilight zone will become the dead of night very soon unless negotiations are re-entered. We have to show our lawyers that negotiations are ongoing."
Odd that is the one statement from "uncle tim", "timmy" "nice but dim Tim" that everyone says he is being honest about.

You might be right Grendel, it may have been more Fisher bullshit. But as ACL said at the time, they could not take the chance. If it wasn't a bluff and they did liquidate the club was gone for good, no going back. They felt, and I don't think they could think anything else, they had to act and file for administration. They weren't really chasing debt they were trying to safe guard the clubs future.

I can't see how anyone can have faith in Sisu if they research their history. Yes the previous running of the club was far from perfect. But Sisu have been here sometime now they have to take responsibility for their watch. They can't keep issuing reactive statements blaming everyone else.

A successful future will only dawn when they go.

I think that's absolutely balanced and correct

 

[James Smith]

I seen one of my posts has been highlighted...

I quoted PWKH exactly, as I said, they are his words, not mine.

"The Board of ACL has already issued a Statutory Demand for payment, the deadline for which has long since passed, and is now looking at its legal options. These legal options include petitioning the courts to grant an order to wind up CCFC and starting off the process of placing the Club into compulsory liquidation."

http://www.coventrycity-mad.co.uk/n...or_acl__knatchbullhugessen_779242/index.shtml

Yup as I pointed out he did mention liquidation first it's just that what he said and what Tim said are worlds apart. PWKH said that they have the choice of legal things they can do in order to recover the money they were (and still are owed) which include liquidation as a last resort (I assume if all other options failed). He didn't say that they were going to do that, merely that they had those options available to them should the need arise. Tim on the other hand said that insolvent liquidation cannot be reasonably avoided and that to me implies something quite different.

 

[Hobo]

Re James above
Fisher also on record as saying we can't keep kicking an empty can down the road, again suggesting the end is near!!