thaiskyblue
New Member
acl, why ?
Coventry City boss admits 'errors' after leak of confidential players' documents (22 Viewers)
- Thread starter FRY-CCFC
- Start date
thaiskyblue
New Member
club get 225k, crooks in the caymen islands get i.5m, more like.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
what is the importance of the documents being pre fisher?
tim fisher comment, "As the club has consistently maintained, the players contracts have been registered by CCFC (Holdings) Ltd and registered by the Football League in the name of Holdings" this is now proven to be a lie.
so whether they were pre fisher or not he is involved in a cover up. is this really someone you want to be defending?
one other question, if the contracts are proven to have been transferred under fishers rule will you have an excuse for him then and if so what will that be?
like i said to you earlier even if acl are 90% to blame for the whole mess and shitsu 10%, we still deserve better than shitsu. i wouldn't wish them on the vile.
tim fisher comment, "As the club has consistently maintained, the players contracts have been registered by CCFC (Holdings) Ltd and registered by the Football League in the name of Holdings" this is now proven to be a lie.
so whether they were pre fisher or not he is involved in a cover up. is this really someone you want to be defending?
one other question, if the contracts are proven to have been transferred under fishers rule will you have an excuse for him then and if so what will that be?
like i said to you earlier even if acl are 90% to blame for the whole mess and shitsu 10%, we still deserve better than shitsu. i wouldn't wish them on the vile.
Because the witholding of rent was unlawful.
Astute
Well-Known Member
It is quite different though Paxman. OK try this one.
You have a business. It is called Paxmans Dildo's. Your premises are too big for you but good in every other way. They were built for you when you hit hard times. There was a deal you had made where you could have the leasehold cheap. Then have the whole building when you could afford it. It was built for you as your landlord knew how much pleasure local people got from your product
You are in it for the money and not pleasure though and want to get out of the dildo market. Your landlord won't sell it to you for peanuts. You stop paying the rent for 18 months. your landlord is unhappy but still don't kick you out. So you have another plan you had prepared.....
You had started up other sections of your company. Paxmans Black Dildo's, Paxmans Pink Dildo's and Paxmans Blue Dildo's. You transfer all the things that you want to keep into these groups. You then get someone you know to put Paxmans Dildo's into administration. You leave the unpaid rent, tax bill and contract for the dildo factory. You put a bid in from a new company called Optimum. You move everything miles away to another dildo factory and pay rent. Not a problem as they are not as good quality as yours. ....yet. You lose a lot of customers as you can't deliver on the days you used to. But you might get the property on the cheap.
they wouldnt be creating the same situation at all.. as i said, THEY would be able to gift the club the turnover of the stadium ( for FFP ), as they own the stadium.. so that solves that problem which we have now... and as THEY own the stadium, they would also be able to charge the club rent at whatever rate they liked.. so instead of them paying a 3rd party ( ACL ) rent.. they would be paying themselves a rent & still making that money. Its a millions miles away from the situation they are in now..
err.. so you heard him admit they hadnt decided which comopany would actually own the stadium.. and you admit he rambled on , giving no actual answer.. yet you imply that im exaggerating when i say he 'skirted' round the question. id actually say you just confirmed that he skirted round the question!!
For a start how on earth can you have plans / funding map in place for stadium, and not actually know who will own the stadium.. come on!
GaryPendrysEyes
Well-Known Member
This is very likely to end in court. The admin process was clearly misinformed and flawed. It wasted bidders time and money and potentially offered creditors less than they were entitled to.
I fact it needs to go to court where it will hopefully flush out what Sisu have done and some of the goings on before Sisu.
Can't see why any fan would oppose that.
I fact it needs to go to court where it will hopefully flush out what Sisu have done and some of the goings on before Sisu.
Can't see why any fan would oppose that.
GaryPendrysEyes
Well-Known Member
It will be interesting to see Appletons report - I'm sure he's editing it at this very moment. Can he really use the 'beneficial ownership' line to cover all these goings on?
He needs to be pressured to declare what players were registered where and when, and if and when they were moved between companies.
More pressure needs to be applied by MPs and the Telegraph.
He needs to be pressured to declare what players were registered where and when, and if and when they were moved between companies.
More pressure needs to be applied by MPs and the Telegraph.
Astute
Well-Known Member
A SISU fan?
thaiskyblue
New Member
yes but some fools still back them, sisu out...............
thaiskyblue
New Member
how did Appleton not notice this and the FL, OH I FORGOT IT'S ACL 'S FAULT.
SISU MUST GO.
SISU MUST GO.
Sub
Well-Known Member
not notice or totally ignore ?
James Smith
Well-Known Member
I think you'll find SISU have already started that one.
GaryPendrysEyes
Well-Known Member
Hard to see how the FL, FA will give a shit unless this goes to court and they are implicated. Maybe then a national paper may pick it up.
For now I guess we wait on Appleton's report- which no doubt will have more than an amount of covering his own backside.
For now I guess we wait on Appleton's report- which no doubt will have more than an amount of covering his own backside.
Sub
Well-Known Member
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
how hard do you think the shitsu's shreader's are working at the moment?
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James Smith
Well-Known Member
We'd better hope that they do because I can't see us back at the Ricoh anytime soon given all the statements. We need to see the plans Tim and you need to get the planning application in now.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
he needs to buy some ground 1st. this is the longest 2weeks in history, which reminds me has anyone seen ground hog day
jesus-wept
New Member
Certain to end in the courts IMO. I think ACL are waiting for the administrators report on September 19th and will then act. Remember sisu/Fisher know the whole truth and full facts and I suspect ACL/CCC know a lot more than has so far been said. As for the football authorities be it the FL or the FA they will know most the facts too. Remember Hoffman is a big fish at the Premier League and will certainly have influence and the ear of people in the FA. So roll on September the 19th, the clock is ticking.
Mary_Mungo_Midge
Well-Known Member
SISU bought CCFC in December 2007; and completed Due Diligence in doing so. For Fisher, or any of the company's officials some 6 years later, to still be talking in terms of 'a mess', or blaming other administrations for the misappropriation of assets and liabilities simply isn't good enough.
He claims that 'Holdings' should have held the player registrations, and it was the silly old FL who incorrectly registered them to 'Limited'. But the Golden Share did sit with 'Limited' and that's where the registrations should have been. This is also consistent with the leaked documents - which do sit within SISU's tenure, and assets in accounts signed and filed by Fisher.
The last set of accounts was filed for 'Limited' to 16/05/2012 according to Companies House; and Fisher joined as managing Director in - what - December 2011? These accounts show trading and playing assets. He is responsible for their accuracy. But he now seemingly contradicts that which he took authority for.
So, you can't simply put this down to events being 'pre-Fisher'.
And what about his statements in March 2013 - the time of administration - in which he claimed that Limited was "merely a non-trading property subsidiary"; which he then counters in yesterday's Telegraph - only when leaked documents come to light which surely he must have been party to - with the diametric opposite "In these instances, the documentation clearly shows Limited as the registering company".
You may be anxious about this being raised a fourth time; but I'm sorry it deserves it as it shows glaring contradictions; and to cast it all asunder under the auspices of poor administration, or being pre-Fisher simply don't wash.
And for him to have the temerity - given the above - to state in the Preston programme notes: "One of the reason's given by the council for rejecting the CVA that caused the ten point loss was they wanted an investigation into where players contracts sat but, the truth is, they have known all along and have chosen to act as if it is some kind of mystery. The Football League, finally confirmed last week that they have been registering players in 'Holdings' rather than 'Ltd' and as we have maintained for months, this has been going on since way before SISU took over" - well, that's astonishing
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oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
Just a few thoughts really
There have been comments about how the split of "The Coventry City Football Club Ltd" was done in 1995. That things like the golden share were put in the wrong company. Just to be clear in order for the Hive down to happen there had to be written approval of the process from both the Football League and the FA. Clearly the club, FA & FL were fully aware of where the share, football club trade and players were following the split in to CCFC Ltd and CCFC H Ltd.
The process on relegation is to exchange the share the club has with the share a promoted club has. In order to exchange that share you must have your name attached to it. So when relegated from the Premiership CCFC Ltd exchanged that share for a Championship one no other entity could exchange shares on behalf of CCFC. Similarly on relegation to L1
Annual returns submitted to Company House by the Football League including the one in June 2013 show Coventry City Football Club Limited (including company number) as the share holder. Therefore the Football League were well aware of where the share was so were the club. It was public record
Only the Football League member can register and contract players to play in the Football League competition, a point backed up by the "audit" of registrations at all 71 other clubs to make sure cross company registration did not occur any where else (tacit admission that the CCFC situation was wrong?). The implication of that is not that the share was in the wrong place or that it should be moved to where the contracts were - remember transfer of the share requires written permission from the FA & FL and there has been none. It is that the contracts/registrations that should have been transferred to the member club had an administrative error been made by either club or FL. The correction was to move the contracts/registrations that were in the wrong place (clearly not all were)
What we know
- the rules of CCFC Ltd say the players & trade should be in CCFC Ltd
- minutes of directors meeting in 2008 under SISU ownership say that player contracts and registration should be in CCFC Ltd
- Copies of contracts so far seen indicate that all player dealings were in CCFC Ltd
- Third parties understood they were dealing with CCFC Ltd
- Accounts since 1996 through to 2011 show player contracts and registrations were in CCFC Ltd
- successive and different directors including TF signed off accounts that included all player transactions in CCFC Ltd
- Due diligence carried out by SISU in 2008 showed the players & trade were in CCFC Ltd
- all player transactions from 1995 to 2011 were detailed in CCFC Ltd
- The first administrators report indicated there were registrations in CCFC Ltd (info provided to PA by TF)
- the share was confirmed by FA and FL as in CCFC Ltd
against this we have been told at various times by TF
- CCFC never had or paid any employees
- that the registrations were in CCFC Ltd and contracts in CCFC H Ltd
- that players have always been in CCFC H Ltd
- that the financials are a mess
- no players were registered in CCFC Ltd
- that past directors had got it wrong (but also must include him because he was using the same basis to give PA information in March 2013)
- all players now registered with Otium Entertainment Group
- that contracts on a third party letterhead were not valid as CCFC Ltd because the CCFC Ltd company number was not on it, and that it should have been CCFC H Ltd (whose name nor number does not appear at all)
- its all the fault of the FL
- no one knows where the share is
- CCFC H has the rights to the share
- the share is confirmed in CCFC Ltd
all of his statements are pretty contradictory at best.
Where is the evidence that the points we know from published documents are all incorrect - the word of TF is simply not good enough. How hard should it be to disprove things once and for all?
Final thought - is there not a responsibility on the part of not only the FL but also the Club to ensure that contracts and player registrations are in the correct place with the golden share. If the Club had completed the registrations/contracts clearly and unambiguously then the FL could not have made a mistake in the first place. It is the Club presenting the forms not the FL. Between 2006 and 2010 it would seem that transfers etc were being registered by CCFC Ltd as yet there is no evidence to show anything different to that.
That all said, I do not expect the FL to back track and to correct the registration errors, I do not expect SISU/TF to permit any back tracking they will hit the FL with huge legal bills if FL tried, I do not expect PA to change his process, I do not expect ACL to fight this directly in the courts. CCFC will now remain with Otium Entertainment Group (SISU), The FL will come under increasing pressure regarding their governance, CCFC will remain for this season at Sixfields unless there is some sort of game changer regarding SISU stadium ambitions.
There have been comments about how the split of "The Coventry City Football Club Ltd" was done in 1995. That things like the golden share were put in the wrong company. Just to be clear in order for the Hive down to happen there had to be written approval of the process from both the Football League and the FA. Clearly the club, FA & FL were fully aware of where the share, football club trade and players were following the split in to CCFC Ltd and CCFC H Ltd.
The process on relegation is to exchange the share the club has with the share a promoted club has. In order to exchange that share you must have your name attached to it. So when relegated from the Premiership CCFC Ltd exchanged that share for a Championship one no other entity could exchange shares on behalf of CCFC. Similarly on relegation to L1
Annual returns submitted to Company House by the Football League including the one in June 2013 show Coventry City Football Club Limited (including company number) as the share holder. Therefore the Football League were well aware of where the share was so were the club. It was public record
Only the Football League member can register and contract players to play in the Football League competition, a point backed up by the "audit" of registrations at all 71 other clubs to make sure cross company registration did not occur any where else (tacit admission that the CCFC situation was wrong?). The implication of that is not that the share was in the wrong place or that it should be moved to where the contracts were - remember transfer of the share requires written permission from the FA & FL and there has been none. It is that the contracts/registrations that should have been transferred to the member club had an administrative error been made by either club or FL. The correction was to move the contracts/registrations that were in the wrong place (clearly not all were)
What we know
- the rules of CCFC Ltd say the players & trade should be in CCFC Ltd
- minutes of directors meeting in 2008 under SISU ownership say that player contracts and registration should be in CCFC Ltd
- Copies of contracts so far seen indicate that all player dealings were in CCFC Ltd
- Third parties understood they were dealing with CCFC Ltd
- Accounts since 1996 through to 2011 show player contracts and registrations were in CCFC Ltd
- successive and different directors including TF signed off accounts that included all player transactions in CCFC Ltd
- Due diligence carried out by SISU in 2008 showed the players & trade were in CCFC Ltd
- all player transactions from 1995 to 2011 were detailed in CCFC Ltd
- The first administrators report indicated there were registrations in CCFC Ltd (info provided to PA by TF)
- the share was confirmed by FA and FL as in CCFC Ltd
against this we have been told at various times by TF
- CCFC never had or paid any employees
- that the registrations were in CCFC Ltd and contracts in CCFC H Ltd
- that players have always been in CCFC H Ltd
- that the financials are a mess
- no players were registered in CCFC Ltd
- that past directors had got it wrong (but also must include him because he was using the same basis to give PA information in March 2013)
- all players now registered with Otium Entertainment Group
- that contracts on a third party letterhead were not valid as CCFC Ltd because the CCFC Ltd company number was not on it, and that it should have been CCFC H Ltd (whose name nor number does not appear at all)
- its all the fault of the FL
- no one knows where the share is
- CCFC H has the rights to the share
- the share is confirmed in CCFC Ltd
all of his statements are pretty contradictory at best.
Where is the evidence that the points we know from published documents are all incorrect - the word of TF is simply not good enough. How hard should it be to disprove things once and for all?
Final thought - is there not a responsibility on the part of not only the FL but also the Club to ensure that contracts and player registrations are in the correct place with the golden share. If the Club had completed the registrations/contracts clearly and unambiguously then the FL could not have made a mistake in the first place. It is the Club presenting the forms not the FL. Between 2006 and 2010 it would seem that transfers etc were being registered by CCFC Ltd as yet there is no evidence to show anything different to that.
That all said, I do not expect the FL to back track and to correct the registration errors, I do not expect SISU/TF to permit any back tracking they will hit the FL with huge legal bills if FL tried, I do not expect PA to change his process, I do not expect ACL to fight this directly in the courts. CCFC will now remain with Otium Entertainment Group (SISU), The FL will come under increasing pressure regarding their governance, CCFC will remain for this season at Sixfields unless there is some sort of game changer regarding SISU stadium ambitions.
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Hobo
Well-Known Member
I think once the Football League accepted the preferred binder as Otium (conveniently getting them out of a hole through poor admin reuniting contracts and golden share, no SISU legal battle) Appleton moved the sale through. This left ACL little bargaining power except to reject the CVA and pursue the administration process has not been done fairly.
Lets be honest, which ever side you were on, the conflict over where the golden share and contracts lay were a key issue for prospective buyers. Appleton had the power to get the answers from SISU and the FL to make the bidding process fair....I say he didn't and allowed SISU to continue to muddy the waters to their advantage and allowed the FL to bury their head in the sand in embarrassment!
SISU have been in charge for 6 years they have responsibility for those six years and the accounts signed off as correct.
Lets be honest, which ever side you were on, the conflict over where the golden share and contracts lay were a key issue for prospective buyers. Appleton had the power to get the answers from SISU and the FL to make the bidding process fair....I say he didn't and allowed SISU to continue to muddy the waters to their advantage and allowed the FL to bury their head in the sand in embarrassment!
SISU have been in charge for 6 years they have responsibility for those six years and the accounts signed off as correct.
thaiskyblue
New Member
do you honestly believe fisher ?
RoboCCFC90
Well-Known Member
Quote
“One of the reason’s given by the council for rejecting the CVA that caused the ten point loss was they wanted an investigation into where players contracts sat but, the truth is, they have known all along and have chosen to act as if it is some kind of mystery.
“The Football League, finally confirmed last week that they have been registering players in ‘Holdings’ rather than ‘Ltd’ and as we have maintained for months, this has been going on since way before SISU took over.
“That is significant because there is a myth that somehow SISU have set up this structure because they have something to hide when, in fact, it was a structure they inherited.
T. Fisher, CCFC v Preston NE programme notes, 25 August 2013
4th September 2013
Quote
Tim Fisher admits some players were registered to Coventry City Football Club Limited despite repeatedly insisting they were registered to another company, Coventry City boss Tim Fisher has today accepted some players were registered in Coventry City Football Club Limited - despite repeatedly insisting players were registered in another company. Mr Fisher told us: “In these instances, the documentation clearly shows Limited as the registering company.”
I think that could be the end of Mr Fisher,epic epic epic fail, Sisu have now lost all credibility that's what little they had before.
I highlighted a key part of that quote..
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
it was also a structure they endorsed when they carried out the review in 2008 - see directors minutes published
sky blue john
Well-Known Member
Still at the end of the the day there will still be 10% of our fan base including a few on here will defend the indefensible until the end !!!
A shame really because if the 10% were to join the rest of us this mess would be over a lot quicker with Sisu selling up or at the least be back at the Ricoh.
A shame really because if the 10% were to join the rest of us this mess would be over a lot quicker with Sisu selling up or at the least be back at the Ricoh.
thaiskyblue
New Member
chickentikkamasala
Well-Known Member
Quote “One of the reason’s given by the council for rejecting the CVA that caused the ten point loss was they wanted an investigation into where players contracts sat but, the truth is, they have known all along and have chosen to act as if it is some kind of mystery.
“The Football League, finally confirmed last week that they have been registering players in ‘Holdings’ rather than ‘Ltd’ and as we have maintained for months, this has been going on since way before SISU took over.
“That is significant because there is a myth that somehow SISU have set up this structure because they have something to hide when, in fact, it was a structure they inherited.
T. Fisher, CCFC v Preston NE programme notes, 25 August 2013
4th September 2013
Quote Tim Fisher admits some players were registered to Coventry City Football Club Limited despite repeatedly insisting they were registered to another company, Coventry City boss Tim Fisher has today accepted some players were registered in Coventry City Football Club Limited - despite repeatedly insisting players were registered in another company. Mr Fisher told us: “In these instances, the documentation clearly shows Limited as the registering company.”
I think that could be the end of Mr Fisher,epic epic epic fail, Sisu have now lost all credibility that's what little they had before.
Did you poach that from GMK? exactly the same post on there half way down ?
http://www.gmkonline.com/?page=forum&forum_id=6&thread_id=34507&selpage=0
RoboCCFC90
Well-Known Member
Exactly OSB, they inherited a structure which they probably thought instead of fixing, play ignorant and continue to use, however Fisher has at least tried to sort this mess out, despite the belief of his motives..
Karl87
New Member
I've emailed this to the Football League ([email protected]) and FA ([email protected]) and CC'd in Paul Appleton and his PA ([email protected] and [email protected]).
I doubt I'll get a serious response, but you've got to try!
Dear Sir/Madam,
I would like to direct your attention to the information contained in an article in today's Coventry Evening Telegraph newspaper:
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/football/football-news/coventry-city-fc-boss-tim-5839657
Documents received by the newspaper confirm that Coventry City's players contracts were registered with Coventry City Limited - the company which went into administration this summer - and not Coventry City Holdings.
Administrator Paul Appleton's judgement that (Sisu owned) Otium Entertainment Group were the best bidders to buy the assets of Coventry City Limited was based upon the information that the player's registrations were already owned by Coventry City Holdings.
Can you please explain how - in light of this information - this summer's administration process and Paul Appleton's choice of bidder was acceptable?
Kind regards,
Karl
I doubt I'll get a serious response, but you've got to try!
Dear Sir/Madam,
I would like to direct your attention to the information contained in an article in today's Coventry Evening Telegraph newspaper:
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/football/football-news/coventry-city-fc-boss-tim-5839657
Documents received by the newspaper confirm that Coventry City's players contracts were registered with Coventry City Limited - the company which went into administration this summer - and not Coventry City Holdings.
Administrator Paul Appleton's judgement that (Sisu owned) Otium Entertainment Group were the best bidders to buy the assets of Coventry City Limited was based upon the information that the player's registrations were already owned by Coventry City Holdings.
Can you please explain how - in light of this information - this summer's administration process and Paul Appleton's choice of bidder was acceptable?
Kind regards,
Karl
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
If sorting the structure out to help administration had been the driving factor it could have been done without all of this grief...... in fact we would never have known most probably. Also if siorting it out was so essential they should have done years ago but didnt. In deed the whole mis registration could have been corrected very easily without all the palava that has gone on but it became a tool in a means to an end rather than an administrative error. I dont think TF deserves too much credit for sorting out a two company group structure............. by moving to a two company group structure.
leads to one conclusion really in my opinion..... the administration at the club became a tool to achieve one aim...... to break the lease. SISU have made choices in how they run the club some of which I agree with others I certainly do not, but they have created huge losses in doing so that did not have to be incurred. The club is a tool in their hands nothing more.
leads to one conclusion really in my opinion..... the administration at the club became a tool to achieve one aim...... to break the lease. SISU have made choices in how they run the club some of which I agree with others I certainly do not, but they have created huge losses in doing so that did not have to be incurred. The club is a tool in their hands nothing more.
DazzleTommyDazzle
Well-Known Member
I have to say that in my opinion that is a very charitable interpretation of events.
RoboCCFC90
Well-Known Member
I agree 100% OSB. As you said it could have been sorted from Day 1 or even before then had SISU looked into the the company properly on purchase.. The administration process has been a farse
RoboCCFC90
Well-Known Member
I am a charitable guy.