Stadium Consultation Forum Report (4 Viewers)

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
He's saying that if we had a 10mill loan with the bank each month we'd have to give them 200k (for example), but with a 10mill loan with avro we don't give them the 200k, it just gets added onto what we owe them.

Weather or not that is true I don't know. I'd suspect the investors wouldn't be happy with that, so I'd guess (and I am guessing) that something in the middle is true, where the investors get money each month and the amount we owe arvo grows.

So two questions: won't that mean higher repayment terms overall due to compound interest? Aren't we just building up a time bomb if Sisu don't realise value in the club making it more likely we get a catastrophic liquidation rather than a smooth transition to sustainable ownership?
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
Garlick seems to hate the Ricoh.

Doesn't really come as a surprise, was not going to run by anyone who likes the Ricoh was it!

CBRE lady seemed to be reading prewritten script and looked shit scared.

Architect guy seemed confident.

Surprised these two were here, makes it even more depressing that noone questioned them on the FOI revalations. CBRE are the ones supposed to be sorting out the land purchase, who better to ask? Plus if it was someone not used to spinning BS and feeling nervous you've got more chance of a slip up and something being revealed that SISU would rather we didn't know.

Architect says plan is modular, 12>15>20-25k but site allows further expansion to say 30k by enlarging the envelope. Highways planning for final capacity would need granting at first stage so no hitches. Capacity upgrade would take roughly 6-9 months with that stadium "still playable".

Was there any mention of cost for expansion? I'm interested to know how much of a premium there is for doing this in stages rather than building it big enough from day 1. Also be interested to know how the expansion will be funded, will the funds for expansion be part of the initial costings with the money somehow ringfenced or are SISU going to build a small stadium and leave it up to someone else to expand it (which probably won't happen as a new owner will move us back to the Ricoh).

Someone needs to push the point at them that if we really only need a 12K stadium it shows they've destroyed the club as that would have been nowhere near big enough when they took over.

We will get input on interior decoration, what we want in the "fans zone" (And here was me thinking the whole stadium was a fans zone) in terms of which pie and pint stands we want. Kept going on about how we were never consulted about the Ricoh.

Questions were either unanswerable or drivel about wanting the tunnel to come out near the fans.

Suspected it would be this sort of thing. Frankly I have very little interest in that at this stage of things. There are things I'd like to see different to the Ricoh but in all honest most of the things are achievable at the Ricoh. It seems to me the idea is to try and highlight every tiny little thing that can be seen as a negative at the Ricoh and promise it will be different in the new ground.

Garlick claims it's her forum and the club will be invited in later , though a CCFC employee seemed to be checking names on the door, she wet to great lengths to say he has no current commercial relationship with the club. There as a fan.

She certainly was involved in a commercial relationship with the club earlier this season. Gives the impression those ties have been severed so the claim of being indpendent can be made. Did anyone ask why she was no longer in a commercial relationship with the club?

Might have different colour seats to Sky blue as apparently the players complain they can't see each other when the Ricoh is empty.

What a load of bollocks, have you ever heard any player or manager give this any mention and if it was a problem surely its very easy to fix, just cover up empty rows / blocks with a different colour. Did she mention where she got this information from if she has nothing to do with the club?

will have community features ("you know for the youngsters and um...the community") not sure what yet.

What the hell are community features? There's already stuff for the kids at the Ricoh isn't there so that's hardly a revelation. Is there even much point having anything for the community, nobody will be visiting a stadium in the middle of nowhere on non matchdays.

lots of car parking will be available. Wants consultation on other transport links.

How can they know this when they don't know where it will be? They can't know the size of the land they will buy or what green travel plan restrictions will apply.

corporate seats not behind glass, part of the action.

You've got both options at the Ricoh, will there now only be the option to be outside? That seems like a backwards step and not one all the corporate types will like.
 

Specs WT-R75

Well-Known Member
So two questions: won't that mean higher repayment terms overall due to compound interest? Aren't we just building up a time bomb if Sisu don't realise value in the club making it more likely we get a catastrophic liquidation rather than a smooth transition to sustainable ownership?

The paper debt is currently 60m? I know there were plans to write off 32m if the CVA was accepted but with the liquidation I am not entirely sure what that does to the paper debt. The asset (golden share, player contracts, club name/rights) is worth perhaps 5m currently and that is probably a generous valuation given Otium bought the asset for 1.5m. I don't see how a liquidation could be any more catastrophic with another 20-30m added on top than it would be today...

Now what is really concerning is if the club manages to get finance on a new stadium as that debt could bring the club down if not manageable...
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
don't get hung up on comments in the press or from the owners how the individual companies seem to owe this or that. In terms of finance SISU have provided then you need to look at the group situation in total

At 31/05/12 the Group owed.....

SISU £28,554,706
ARVO £ 8,025,814

£36,580,520 in total .............. still a huge sum but not £60m

There have been amendments to that since 31/05/12 but it will not have grown by 24m. A guess is that there were losses £3.5m to 31/05/13 plus losses to date say 1.5m. I doubt the overall debt is more than £42m still too much obviously
 

Skybluesuffolk

New Member
Well her only explanation/evidence she was willing to say (per the Telegraph) was why would they go to all this trouble if they weren't serious. That's a bit like when my girlfriend comes home and asks why I've gone to the trouble of clearing my Internet history. Maybe we're both hiding something.

:claping hands:
 

Specs WT-R75

Well-Known Member
don't get hung up on comments in the press or from the owners how the individual companies seem to owe this or that. In terms of finance SISU have provided then you need to look at the group situation in total

At 31/05/12 the Group owed.....

SISU £28,554,706
ARVO £ 8,025,814

£36,580,520 in total .............. still a huge sum but not £60m

There have been amendments to that since 31/05/12 but it will not have grown by 24m. A guess is that there were losses £3.5m to 31/05/13 plus losses to date say 1.5m. I doubt the overall debt is more than £42m still too much obviously

How much of that debt was in Ltd before they bought Ltd for 1.5m? Obviously the 1.5m will be added to the overall debt, but the losses in Ltd are liquidated at approx 0.5 pence in the pound I believe?
 

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
Actually the 2012 SBS&L Group accounts show that £980,737 interest was actually paid out and in 2011 £465,112. I do not think the interest due to ARVO and any very short term lender is being rolled up, it looks like it is being paid over

Interesting...I wonder how much was paid during the period when we couldn't afford to pay the rent !
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
How much of that debt was in Ltd before they bought Ltd for 1.5m? Obviously the 1.5m will be added to the overall debt, but the losses in Ltd are liquidated at approx 0.5 pence in the pound I believe?

Don t think you understand how a group situation works. None of that debt was in CCFC Ltd. The debt in CCFC Ltd was paper transactions and old debt that was discounted when SISU took over but never taken out of CCFC Ltd accs.

The real money transactions were the amounts that the SISU investors put in to SBS&L (the head of the Group) and the loans that ARVO put in to CCFC H and Otium. The CCFC H debt being swept up on reorganisation and repaid to be lent again but this time to Otium. The 5p in the £ has no relevance at all.

You have to look at the finance that has come from external sources not the debt between the group members which is internal
 

Specs WT-R75

Well-Known Member
Don t think you understand how a group situation works. None of that debt was in CCFC Ltd. The debt in CCFC Ltd was paper transactions and old debt that was discounted when SISU took over but never taken out of CCFC Ltd accs.

The real money transactions were the amounts that the SISU investors put in to SBS&L (the head of the Group) and the loans that ARVO put in to CCFC H and Otium. The CCFC H debt being swept up on reorganisation and repaid to be lent again but this time to Otium. The 5p in the £ has no relevance at all.

You have to look at the finance that has come from external sources not the debt between the group members which is internal

Got it - that makes sense now. That is where my 60m figure was coming from...
 

Captain Dart

Well-Known Member
So have I got this right..

~ARVO £8M loans on which about £1M p.a. interest is paid
~ SISU £28.5M investment on which no interest is paid and a return is 'hoped' for
~ SISU own all the assets of the club and have a charge against them and 'future' profits

In summary the club's assets are ..
~ Golden Share
~ Player Contracts
~ Ryton
~ Miscellaneous, like club shop stock.
If the Ricoh is worth £6M, then what is this worth, £1 or £2M being generous?
 

Specs WT-R75

Well-Known Member
So have I got this right..

~ARVO £8M loans on which about £1M p.a. interest is paid
~ SISU £28.5M investment on which no interest is paid and a return is 'hoped' for
~ SISU own all the assets of the club and have a charge against them and 'future' profits

In summary the club's assets are ..
~ Golden Share
~ Player Contracts
~ Ryton
~ Miscellaneous, like club shop stock.
If the Ricoh is worth £6M, then what is this worth, £1 or £2M being generous?

This figure that ML & TF float around is very misleading. This is the paper value of ACL which has an approx 40yr lease. ACL mortgage is 14m and hence why Sisu were trying to get it on the cheap and why we are in this mess.

The bricks and mortar of the Ricoh are effectively part of the freehold, which is worth? Who knows they won't have an independent valuation done :)
 

Rusty Trombone

Well-Known Member
This figure that ML & TF float around is very misleading. This is the paper value of ACL which has an approx 40yr lease. ACL mortgage is 14m and hence why Sisu were trying to get it on the cheap and why we are in this mess.

The bricks and mortar of the Ricoh are effectively part of the freehold, which is worth? Who knows they won't have an independent valuation done :)

Who says this is the paper value of ACL?
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
Who says this is the paper value of ACL?

it is the distressed security value for Yorkshire Bank of ACL excluding any income from football as at December 2012. It is nothing like a going concern value or even a current value.
 

skybluefred

New Member
Yes

We were heading for third tier long before SISU arrived. Did we ever look like getting into the Playoffs in the 10 years of Championship football - No. After a couple of seasons we were back in familier territory of being near the bottom, we applauded ourselves in saving ourselves from relegation when Southampton and Norwich were relegated instead. Look where we are now relative to them.
Why - The debt was a noose around our necks - Now we have got rid of the original debt, the supporters have decided not to support the Club so it is now building up a new debt - that will need to be paid off in the future.

The future has to be a sustainable Club and at least we now have the owners who realise now how to run the Club and make it sustainable
Yes a typical fan will not like sustainability but prefer some rich guy to bankroll the club - those days are now over.
Its upto the supporters to ensure the Club receives an income that give the Club a fighting chance of promotion.
Going back to the RICOH with its heavy overhead charges from ACL, even when its claimed to be rent free, will not help us in the long term.

Why are the majority of City supporters wanting promotion but not willing to support them financially, how can that work.

Another sisu plant--time to get the weed killer out me thinks.
 

skybluefred

New Member
Actually the 2012 SBS&L Group accounts show that £980,737 interest was actually paid out and in 2011 £465,112. I do not think the interest due to ARVO and any very short term lender is being rolled up, it looks like it is being paid over

Wouldn't disagree with that, But where does the money come from to pay that amount of interest. This season they will be lucky to take that amount of money.
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
I would guess that would depend on the time of year that the interest falls due to be paid :thinking about: ,................... unless there is an agreement to roll some of it up
 

letsallsingtogether

Well-Known Member
But we did support them for all the time they were at the Ricoh and what did it get us.:thinking about:

Oh yes I remember 3 tier football no home ground and a cardboard cut out of how a ground could look.....

Yes

We were heading for third tier long before SISU arrived. Did we ever look like getting into the Playoffs in the 10 years of Championship football - No. After a couple of seasons we were back in familier territory of being near the bottom, we applauded ourselves in saving ourselves from relegation when Southampton and Norwich were relegated instead. Look where we are now relative to them.
Why - The debt was a noose around our necks - Now we have got rid of the original debt, the supporters have decided not to support the Club so it is now building up a new debt - that will need to be paid off in the future.

The future has to be a sustainable Club and at least we now have the owners who realise now how to run the Club and make it sustainable
Yes a typical fan will not like sustainability but prefer some rich guy to bankroll the club - those days are now over.
Its upto the supporters to ensure the Club receives an income that give the Club a fighting chance of promotion.
Going back to the RICOH with its heavy overhead charges from ACL, even when its claimed to be rent free, will not help us in the long term.

Why are the majority of City supporters wanting promotion but not willing to support them financially, how can that work.
 

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