Nick
Administrator
So why is he being moronic? I don't know if he right or wrong that's why I'm asking
The Official Petition Thread (7 Viewers)
- Thread starter Skyblueweeman
- Start date
So why is he being moronic? I don't know if he right or wrong that's why I'm asking
Utter Politeness? That's your opinion. Point is, he seems to be under the mis-understanding that I believed contacting Fifa had even a fair chance of working! I did say about 5-10% and that was being ultra generous!
Point is Lobbying is how things are done in the real world - not the rarified venue of a forum! But of course you have far more experience of dealing with politicians and decision makers don't you!
You have one letter of support from one MP. How influencial do you think Mr Collins is? Is he a front bench MP? How much sway does he have over the PM? I could call on 100 MPs today, if I so choose and get them to write a strongly worded letter - point is this alone is meaningless. WHY? Simple - these MPs alone have very little true power!
Here's a thought
WRITE TO EVERY SINGLE MP IN THE COUNTRY!!!!!!
WHY wasn't this the very first thing you did before you started the ePetition?
This is why I do not ever rely on ePetitions! It assumes you might get support from MPs, and because your ePetition is for a year, they do not have to act until 2015 if it even reaches the goal!
I assumed you want this done as a matter of urgency - so WHY go through a process that puts off the decision until 2015 at the earliest?
Did you ever consider WHYMr Collins responded? It was announced in national media and he saw an opportunity to gain media attention! Truly have you ever met an MP or understand how they work?
I met Andy Burnham personally last year. I spoke for about an hour an various topics and he was very open friendly and promised he would adopt my cause. Sure enough that was the last I ever heard from him! Point is they will do anything to get votes! I cannot be bothered to check, but I am guessing this fantastic letter was posted within a couple of days of national media coverage - am I correct?
Had you ever even heard of Mr Collins Before he wrote that letter? He achieved recognition with virtually no effort. If the campaign fails, he loses nothing, and will gain Kudos if it succeeds!
Really I shouldn't be, but I am continually amazed how naive some of the general public can be!
I apologise for bolding certain words, but sometimes I want to make key points stand out. And as there is so much you seem to not appreciate when dealing with politicians it is alarming. There is nothing wrong with this of course - indeed it can be utterly soul destroying when you meet some of these MPs. Sadly you have chosen to go down the political route. This means you have to deal with the reality of dealing with politicians.
Throwing Hissy fits on forums is fine, but you think sisu are sharks. Try dealing with front bench MPs !!!! Honestly sometimes I feel I need to shower after meeting some of those men and women!
I am not saying the cause is not valid, but the execution is naive. Maybe you will get the signatures, maybe you won't. But from your responses, a lot of you seem to still be under the impression just getting the signatures is a guarantee this is going to happen!
Oh and I don't buy the notion if you don't try you will never know. Why waste energy time and money on a method that only achieves 100k about once every 10,000 petitions!
Fell free to look into the reality of ePetitions. Look at the fact that they are only held once a fortnight. Look at how MPs are moaning not enough parliamentary time is being allowed for these.
If they worked, surely big organisations like Amnesty or the red cross or the legio would use them wouldn't they?
Point is ePetitions were designed to allow the public to vent and to give the impression the politicians would listen to them more. How many times have you heard sisu say they have listened to the fans? How many times have you heard politicians say pretty much the same (we have listened to the voters and heard their message)? Sound familiar?
It is easy to listen! Really the naivety of grown ups never ceases to amaze me!!
WRITE TO EVERY MP IN THE COUNTRY!! At the least you will know how much support you might get, and it will be in the back of the minds of every MP in the country!!
Of course if you have more experience of getting MPs to do your will please enlighten me!
Point is Lobbying is how things are done in the real world - not the rarified venue of a forum! But of course you have far more experience of dealing with politicians and decision makers don't you!
You have one letter of support from one MP. How influencial do you think Mr Collins is? Is he a front bench MP? How much sway does he have over the PM? I could call on 100 MPs today, if I so choose and get them to write a strongly worded letter - point is this alone is meaningless. WHY? Simple - these MPs alone have very little true power!
Here's a thought
WRITE TO EVERY SINGLE MP IN THE COUNTRY!!!!!!
WHY wasn't this the very first thing you did before you started the ePetition?
This is why I do not ever rely on ePetitions! It assumes you might get support from MPs, and because your ePetition is for a year, they do not have to act until 2015 if it even reaches the goal!
I assumed you want this done as a matter of urgency - so WHY go through a process that puts off the decision until 2015 at the earliest?
Did you ever consider WHYMr Collins responded? It was announced in national media and he saw an opportunity to gain media attention! Truly have you ever met an MP or understand how they work?
I met Andy Burnham personally last year. I spoke for about an hour an various topics and he was very open friendly and promised he would adopt my cause. Sure enough that was the last I ever heard from him! Point is they will do anything to get votes! I cannot be bothered to check, but I am guessing this fantastic letter was posted within a couple of days of national media coverage - am I correct?
Had you ever even heard of Mr Collins Before he wrote that letter? He achieved recognition with virtually no effort. If the campaign fails, he loses nothing, and will gain Kudos if it succeeds!
Really I shouldn't be, but I am continually amazed how naive some of the general public can be!
I apologise for bolding certain words, but sometimes I want to make key points stand out. And as there is so much you seem to not appreciate when dealing with politicians it is alarming. There is nothing wrong with this of course - indeed it can be utterly soul destroying when you meet some of these MPs. Sadly you have chosen to go down the political route. This means you have to deal with the reality of dealing with politicians.
Throwing Hissy fits on forums is fine, but you think sisu are sharks. Try dealing with front bench MPs !!!! Honestly sometimes I feel I need to shower after meeting some of those men and women!
I am not saying the cause is not valid, but the execution is naive. Maybe you will get the signatures, maybe you won't. But from your responses, a lot of you seem to still be under the impression just getting the signatures is a guarantee this is going to happen!
Oh and I don't buy the notion if you don't try you will never know. Why waste energy time and money on a method that only achieves 100k about once every 10,000 petitions!
Fell free to look into the reality of ePetitions. Look at the fact that they are only held once a fortnight. Look at how MPs are moaning not enough parliamentary time is being allowed for these.
If they worked, surely big organisations like Amnesty or the red cross or the legio would use them wouldn't they?
Point is ePetitions were designed to allow the public to vent and to give the impression the politicians would listen to them more. How many times have you heard sisu say they have listened to the fans? How many times have you heard politicians say pretty much the same (we have listened to the voters and heard their message)? Sound familiar?
It is easy to listen! Really the naivety of grown ups never ceases to amaze me!!
WRITE TO EVERY MP IN THE COUNTRY!! At the least you will know how much support you might get, and it will be in the back of the minds of every MP in the country!!
Of course if you have more experience of getting MPs to do your will please enlighten me!
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J
Jack Griffin
Guest
Cheltenham, waiting approval http://www.robinsnestforum.co.uk/
MichaelCCFC
New Member
Nick, it's you who says "he does ask some good questions and some good points and does seem to know how things work". List and provide evidence to support this and I'll respond to each point.
Nick
Administrator
Well the way it works is you reply to him to say why his points are false and factually incorrect to show that you do know what you are talking about / doing.
You are asking me to provide evidence he is right, I don't know, I am not the one saying he is wrong am I?
skyblueinBaku
Well-Known Member
I may be misreading his posts, but sbvet seems to only point out what he considers to be the futility of the epetition, and that comes across to me as a thinly disguised attempt to deter peoplle from signing. If that is the case, why does he not want the petition to reach the 100,00 target? He claims vast experience in petitions, camaigns etc., and the ability to garner help from a huge number of MPs. Adding a little detail to those claims would give him more credibility.
MichaelCCFC
New Member
Don't think so. kcic has kept the ccfc issue in the spotlight for a long time. Arsenal attracted incredible coverage for our plight. The epetition is going really well. Anyone can come on here, be anonymous and spout off with claims, assertions etc etc but the onus really is on those critical of the kcic campaign to explain factually (not just make assertions and claims) where it is going wrong and suggest a feasible, practical better way forward.
Nick
Administrator
What is your obsession with being anonymous on here? You said earlier you wouldn't take him seriously unless you knew who he was? Why does it matter his name, inside leg measurement and postcode? Not everybody wants to be in the limelight, that is the good thing (sometimes) about forums.
To people who know nothing about how things work (like most) he is making points and you aren't explaining why he is wrong about what he is saying or his claims.
When people make suggestions, they get brushed aside unless they want to go for a pint with you. I have made suggestions many a time which have just been ignored or I have been abused because of it.
I am not saying he is right in everything he is saying as to be honest I am not claiming to know the ins and outs of petitions and what will happen but surely if he has doubts it is nice to know his doubts are wrong and why.
Please explain to me what questions aren't reasonable?
I asked if you expect 100% that this ePetition will get the desired result !!
I said you were getting around 1k/day before the transmission, and you achieved around the same after - so how did it boost ?
What I am observing is that people are getting sucked in and looking at the numbers. And with the misleading way the ePetition has been promoted (as if it is guaranteed the ePetition will result in an inquiry) has raised false optimism in the entire process of ePetitions.
Sure there are successes (west coast mainline & Hillsborough Inquiry), but they affect people in the real world!!! This is an obscure procedural change that doesn't directly affect real people.
Will people spend more if this inquiry happens? Will it help people overcome an injustice that cost the lives of loved ones? Will an inquiry stop ticket prices increasing?
It is shocking how naive those supporting this truly are. Take a look at the two that have just succeeded. Can you say asking for a second inquiry is more relevant to the public than preventing Female Genital Mutilation? They are basically asking to legalise marijuana.
If you were an MP, where do you think the votes are? Especially when you localised it to Coventry City - that was the fatal flaw. But the campaign is NOT dead, and it doesn't need to fail even if you don't get the signatures!
But what you DO need to do is get over the petulant abuse if someone doesn't think your ePetition is the way forward. That is just childish. I'm assuming you are adults so start acting like it!
Can anything I have said be impossible to change? Is everything you are doing set in stone? Must everyone be obediently in line and express no differing opinion? You are asking politicians to push your argument.
Surely it doesn't take much to realise that when dealing with politicians you have to dance with the devil! Your argument must be able to stand scrutiny. If your argument cannot stand scrutiny from someone who would like to see a change in football, how do you expect it to stand scrutiny from people who do not give a shit?
Grow up guys. ePetitions have a horrendous record, and are not seen as credible in the westminster bubble. You need to have a plan B. Be it managers, company directors or campaign organisers, relying on one plan to work is highly highly risky.
BTW I apologise for having to write so large comments, but when you deal with MPs so often you have to get used to expressing everything you do and your reasoning in great detail. I mean have you ever seen a white paper? Reports can be 1000's of pages and say nothing!
This is why lobby groups exist. This is why Lobby groups are paid so well. You need to get this into your mindset if you want any chance of success. Calling people names and trying to belittle people's arguments in the playground or in a forum or at a match is fine. But the "real" world of politics is a shark infested pool of backstabbing two-faced men and women who would jump on any opportunity to gain fame (Nikki Sinclaire anybody?) and will drop you in the brown stuff without thinking twice if they think it will get them ahead.
Sisu fit into this world quite nicely. If you swim with the sharks you need a shark cage and a harpoon. Right now you are in there with bermuda shorts, flippers, and a bucket and spade!
But hey if you have a different experience of MPs please share with the group!!!
I asked if you expect 100% that this ePetition will get the desired result !!
I said you were getting around 1k/day before the transmission, and you achieved around the same after - so how did it boost ?
What I am observing is that people are getting sucked in and looking at the numbers. And with the misleading way the ePetition has been promoted (as if it is guaranteed the ePetition will result in an inquiry) has raised false optimism in the entire process of ePetitions.
Sure there are successes (west coast mainline & Hillsborough Inquiry), but they affect people in the real world!!! This is an obscure procedural change that doesn't directly affect real people.
Will people spend more if this inquiry happens? Will it help people overcome an injustice that cost the lives of loved ones? Will an inquiry stop ticket prices increasing?
It is shocking how naive those supporting this truly are. Take a look at the two that have just succeeded. Can you say asking for a second inquiry is more relevant to the public than preventing Female Genital Mutilation? They are basically asking to legalise marijuana.
If you were an MP, where do you think the votes are? Especially when you localised it to Coventry City - that was the fatal flaw. But the campaign is NOT dead, and it doesn't need to fail even if you don't get the signatures!
But what you DO need to do is get over the petulant abuse if someone doesn't think your ePetition is the way forward. That is just childish. I'm assuming you are adults so start acting like it!
Can anything I have said be impossible to change? Is everything you are doing set in stone? Must everyone be obediently in line and express no differing opinion? You are asking politicians to push your argument.
Surely it doesn't take much to realise that when dealing with politicians you have to dance with the devil! Your argument must be able to stand scrutiny. If your argument cannot stand scrutiny from someone who would like to see a change in football, how do you expect it to stand scrutiny from people who do not give a shit?
Grow up guys. ePetitions have a horrendous record, and are not seen as credible in the westminster bubble. You need to have a plan B. Be it managers, company directors or campaign organisers, relying on one plan to work is highly highly risky.
BTW I apologise for having to write so large comments, but when you deal with MPs so often you have to get used to expressing everything you do and your reasoning in great detail. I mean have you ever seen a white paper? Reports can be 1000's of pages and say nothing!
This is why lobby groups exist. This is why Lobby groups are paid so well. You need to get this into your mindset if you want any chance of success. Calling people names and trying to belittle people's arguments in the playground or in a forum or at a match is fine. But the "real" world of politics is a shark infested pool of backstabbing two-faced men and women who would jump on any opportunity to gain fame (Nikki Sinclaire anybody?) and will drop you in the brown stuff without thinking twice if they think it will get them ahead.
Sisu fit into this world quite nicely. If you swim with the sharks you need a shark cage and a harpoon. Right now you are in there with bermuda shorts, flippers, and a bucket and spade!
But hey if you have a different experience of MPs please share with the group!!!
SydneySkyBlue
Member
lewys33
Well-Known Member
How many contradictions?!
Write to every single MP, however you personally could call on 100 MP's if you so wish, however that is pointless because MP's dont have much power?
J
Jack Griffin
Guest
But going about it in quite the wrong way, badgering people with long long lists of things "they've done wrong" is not the way to make friends and influence people.
PS That is a tip from me to him/her.
I think everyone knows the petition is unlikely to work, but then there is no options available to us that are likely to work other than perhaps the boycot which continues regardless. So doing something that has a small chance of working is worth doing, keeps people engaged, keeps people feeling like they are doing something and you never know it might just work.
His points may well be fair but they actually hurt the chance of it working (though only by the most minute of margins) and so are unhelpful.
SydneySkyBlue
Member
For someone who regularly confronts hard hitting MPs etc you're a sensitive soul aren't you?
Could you explain to me how this is an issue that doesn't affect 'real people'?
Gold Star Super Fan
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BurbageSkyBlues
New Member
Bottom line is, that whatever anybody is doing, it is raising the public awareness of our situation, and it all plays a part in focussing attention and pressure on the authorities/public bodies who can do something about it.
We have seen how the Arsenal game really upped the ante in terms of interest within the media. We all need to do something to keep it going. It does not matter if that one 'something' is not the complete solution to our ills, it will still help propagate the end result we all want.
Michael is making a fantastic effort, it pains me to see others who just throw stones at him. We should look at what we can each do, before criticising the efforts of our fellow fans who are working so hard behind the scenes as well as in public.
We have seen how the Arsenal game really upped the ante in terms of interest within the media. We all need to do something to keep it going. It does not matter if that one 'something' is not the complete solution to our ills, it will still help propagate the end result we all want.
Michael is making a fantastic effort, it pains me to see others who just throw stones at him. We should look at what we can each do, before criticising the efforts of our fellow fans who are working so hard behind the scenes as well as in public.
Skyblueweeman
Well-Known Member
Jesus...where do I start....
* Feel free to point out where I've been 'out of order'.....
* My point, if you re-read it, was that you suggested what your initial line of enquiry would be - FIFA/UEFA, yet now you criticise for not lobbying MPs?? Well which is your preferred route?
* Remember we're only two weeks into 52 weeks of efforts. So we might not have lobbied yet...it's not as if we're sat back hoping for everything to happen. It was decided to work the social media channels first and we're doing that admirably.
* The fact that we got mentioned by another league manager, when he wasn't contacted directly, is proof that word of mouth is working and social media is working. Judging from your posts, you expect us to be near the 100k mark already. Would I like to be further on...yes. Am I concerned that we're not...No. If we had of done things differently, might the numbers be higher...potentially. Do I care...No. We're doing fine.
* Re: Your FIFA idea - again, show me where I was aggressive? Defensive yes...because a lot of people are keen to see this succeed...public broadcasters confirmed that yesterday (which shoots down your comment about only '10 people being invested in this').
* You don't need money for a media campaign...you do if you wish to take ads on TVs, get editorial space in the press. There's ways and means. Yesterdays 4 minutes on a National Sports Radio Station cost exactly nothing.....
* 'Every successful campaign you've worked on....' Instead of 'lambasting' efforts of good intentioned folk, why not meet Michael and talk through your ideas? It would be a great shame with your knowledge and expertise for you to sit back and not get actively involved, only to pick holes in what we're doing. Would it not?
* We do know it's not gauranteed to get debated. Surely publicity (which we are getting) is better than doing nothing?
* Badgering MPs directly...we're two weeks in. Rome wasn't built in a day, yadda, yadda, yadda
* Some politicians are on board already...something on the Telegraph site about the local ones signing it. In time, when the time is right, no doubt they'll be asked to push it further within the Houses.
* Your bit about 'do you expect an inquiry based solely on the wording of a petition?' Take a step back and look at why these e-petitions were created. Exactly for this purpose. I don't get why you don't think they can work when this is exactly why they were created?? You call it naivety...fair enough. I'd rather be naive and try than 'knowledgeable' and take no action.
That should cover most of it. Oh...and I've never 'bad-mouthed' any criticism. I merely hinted that a good human trait would be to at least congratulate those who are trying...even if you don't agree with the mechanics of how they're going about it. Acting like a spolit child? What...for defending those who are trying to do something? That's quite an accusation but you're obviously passionate about what you write and I don't things personally if I know they're completely untrue.
We could go round in circles again and again and again. My closing gambit to you sbvet isn't one of criticism. It's one of a challenge...on two fronts. Firstly, I don't think you'd do yourself a dis-justice by actually thanking people for trying to heighten our plight in the public eye. I'm not for one minute saying any of us deserves special praise at all, but there are some who are trying to do something positive for our shambles of a club and get us back in Coventry...a little 'good effort guys' would probably work a lot better for you on here (but if you wish to continue to critique, that's your perogative). Secondly, as mentioned above, you state you've had good experience of successful petitions. Typing your thoughts on a forum and doing nothing about them is a little lacklustre is it not. Personally, I think you make some good points. I just wish you'd acknowledge the good work being done by Michael et al and put some of your own good thoughts into practice or to at least meet with Michael to discuss further.
Respectfully (in case you think I'm being aggressive
)WM
This is your fundamental problem Michael. You do understand there are thousands and thousands of anonymous people in lobby groups who meet with MPs on a daily basis to push their causes don't you?
You do realise that MPs spend very little of their time actually in parliament don't you? Most of the time is lunches, meetings with lobby groups and influencial business meetings.
All parties have close links with businesses and lobby groups. The wheels of government are oiled with dom pom! I leave meetings with MPs to those that like that world.
ePetitions are for venting frustrations to the public. I cannot be 100%, but I would suggest the Hillsborough inquiry came about because info was leaked about the police's actions at the time. I suspect the west coast mainline had an affect on a top minister somewhere along the line. Of course I could be wrong, but my experience of these things, it was a coincidence that an ePetition was raised. It wouldn't surprise me if the inquiry was raised before the ePetition even reached 100k!
But if you think you can get the ultimate goal solely through an ePetition then be my guest!
You seem to put great trust in the ePetition system.......
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/nov/16/e-petitions-system
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-15755424
And this was not long after the system started - fewer resources are given to ePetitions now than then!
Still think ePetitions change the political landscape?????
This is the Full effect of over 20,000 petitions.
http://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/backbench-business/Outcomes of e-petitions.pdf
Even after the debates, how many of them have actually achieved their goals?
And of those that succeeded, how many of them were in the national news for days weeks months or years?
Take my word for it - don't take my word for it. But I bet you there are some causes in there you agree with that ultimately failed! Hillsborough had new evidence - Is their new evidence for your inquiry?
Owners were bad before the first inquiry (Portsmouth Milwall Birmingham) Are sisu worse than MK Dons or Portsmouth? Have sisu been charged with fraud in another country?
Where is the evidence that football is worse than it was with Portsmouth? You need new strong evidence to justify a new inquiry! Which I assume is your goal!
KCIC has been in the spotlight in the sports pages of Telegraph for a few months. Asking people outside of this forum's bubble, people assume KCIC & the trust are still one and the same!
I know they aren't, and so do most, but the message as yet hasn't got across to those who follow this now and again. I had a conversation yesterday with a friend who isn't a cov fan, but occassionally likes to see how cov are doing (and I presume you have friends like this). He had heard of an ePetition, wasn't really sure what it was. He thought KCIC was a campaign of the trust, and not as I understand it a completely different entity. I tried as best I could to tell him the difference, he smiled politely, but didn't really care.
That is the problem. You know the precise intricacies, the general public doesn't and frankly couldn't give a toss! These are the people you need to convince - not me! Surrounding yourself with yes men and self-congratulations sure will make you feel good. But you really haven't started yet!
You assumed 1000 in the first week, and because it exceeded your expectations, you have made the leap of logic this is guaranteed success.
You want to leaflet games. Let's skip the issues of leaflets. I'd suspect the majority of cov fans have already signed. But even if they haven't, and say you get the 6,000 away fans to sign. And then let's be generous and say the 1,000 at sixfields don't go to away games. If we take a hypothetical leap that none of these are signed.
That's 8,000 signatures from home fans. That would take you to 22k (it wont in reality as probably most have signed already).
Where are the other signatures coming from matches?
What's opponents attendances? What percentage of away supporters do you think you can get to sign your leaflet?
What is the leaflet going to look like? Professional glossy leaflet, or printed of a printer?
What was that fans programme called? How many copies did they sell? True you aren't selling, but you have to assume the vast majority will take your leaflet and throw it away! How many rimes have you been given a leaflet and not even looked at it before you threw it away?
You are surrounding yourself in the shield of yes men Michael. No one likes being told problems with their campaign. My job is to highlight where and why a campaign will struggle. I have gone to great detail to tell you why. I am frankly shocked you have dared to claim I haven't explained my concerns - I have done nothing but that from day one!
I am genuinely concerned for you Michael. You seem to have started to believe the 100k sigs is the goal - it isn't the goal is the inquiry as I see it, the 100k sigs is stage one!
If you cannot stand scrutiny from a friendly witness, how are you going to cope with a combatative one? You going to invite every MP for a drink? The reality is to win over MPs you either wine and dine them at the best restaurants, or your cause is so just, it speaks for itself.
Hillsborough was a no brainer - can you hand on heart say this is the most pressing cause in the country right now? Can you say it is the most pressing cause in Coventry right now?
You need to wake up and smell the coffee. Your friends will always support you no matter what and try to make you fell good. That is great and makes you feel good.
I don't want to make you feel good, I WANT THE CAUSE TO SUCCEED!! But if you aren't prepared to listen to concerns it will go the way of the no to 70 million campaign (assuming you get the 100k that is).
Is that what you want? a 90 minute debate? Or do you want actual action??? You might get action through this, you are more likely if you can get top MP's on your side. How can you not see this??? You are asking for MP's to action this. so I ask again WHY aren't you contacting these MP's directly?
Had I believed MPs would be willing to do this (they might, but not convinced there are votes in it), this was how I would have started....
1) Contact every MP in the country. You can lay out your argument in detail this way.
2) Wait for a response from a friendly MP. Each MP has a secretary that filters ridiculous demands. Some will think this is worthy some wont.
3) Once you have a friendly MP, you meet him in person and lay out your plans.
4) Your friendly MP is almost guaranteed to support your idea to your face. You go away happy you have progress.
5) Wait for a response from a friendly MP who genuine agrees your concerns are valid.
6) Your Friendly MP will then raise the issue in parliment.
7) You then lobby your friendly MP to arrange a meeting to assess if this is a goer
8) By now you have either stumbled, or you get an agreement.
9) It goes via the whip to the top brass, and they decide if it has the legs to get votes or not.
10) If it gets this far and the top brass (not necessarily the PM but a front bench MP), then you get your inquiry.
Not for one second am I saying I could get it that far, but on the rare occassions I succeeded, this was the process.
Obviously if you have more experience of how the cogs of government work fine. But I am telling you, you need MPs on board. Very few if any even look at the ePetitions. All politicians like to be wined and dined.
Is your cause worthy enough to spend thousands on? Can you raise the funds?
Still have unshakable faith in the ePetition system?
NO charities I am aware of raise ePetitions - they lobby.
Lobbying is how groups get their cause actioned.
There is nothing wrong with being naive up to now. But to move forward solely relying on the possibility of getting 100k fans it's crazy!
And I thought you want action now? You have guaranteed even if you get the 100k there will be no action for nearly a year!
Stop surrounding yourself with yes men and try stepping back. Right now you are like a moth to a light. You are so absorbed in watching the light glow you are igniring how hot it is and if you get too close you will burn!
I an trying to help you succeed. Only you can decide to grow up and deal with the issues raised, or stay glued to watching the nunbers grow!
You have proven there is at least some external support, why aren't you being pro-active.
Just look how cov nearly lost when they sat back on a lead. You've achieved beyond your expectations - I have to ask why you aren't consolidating your successes?
Skyblueweeman
Well-Known Member
But calls me childish, spolit and aggressive? C'mon Nick...you've seen enough of my posts to know I'm anything but?!
I agree, some of his points are good, some not so. If he's that good at putting them down in print, why won't he actually do something and help pull in the same direction as many others? Like I said above, I'd rather be naive and try, than knowledgable and sit back and do nothing.
Each to their own I suppose....
WM
Yet again defensive WM ! Yet again you are showing you are too close to this!
I re-iterate I wouldn't have gone to parlaiment. I said IF I was forced to run the campaign in this way, that was how I have run things in the past!
I know exactly what you are doing, I see it on a daily basis. Those who are ultra close to this (the 10 or so on this forum) will not accept ANY criticism! WIll these people who have supported this defend it with the venom you are? Sure they will support, but they support the end result!
You seem to believe the ePetition is the end result!
How do you not get that you have to get MPs on board? MPs will rip you to shreds! Just ask Michael!!
You swim with sharks you need a shark cage. If you get the 100k you then meet politicians - or are you assuming it just gets an inquiry because it gets 100k
You are far too close to this my friend (I hope you allow me to call you that). I have said I want changes in how football is governed - where have I said otherwise???
Have you ever gone through the ePetition process before? I have. Some of my old fleet air arm buddies work with air rescue, so air ambulance was one of my babies I asked to help with (my first ePetition dealings).
The scheme had national recognition, so had a head start. Because it was high profile MPs were sniffing around the campaign). As I said after a couple of meetings, I left it to the organisers - they deserve the credit I am just a hanger on! But I really felt dirty afterwards. You could see in their eye their were weighing up if they thought votes were in this. As I said I felt dirty.
That is why I am happy to sit in the background. I try my best to help the campaigns I help with. Many fail. Some succeed. Since air ambulance I don't deal with ePetitions.
I can only go on personal experience. Will the ePetition get 100k (possibly) Is this the end game - NO?
You say this is not your only strategy, fine - but why are you waiting? Surely it is basic common sense that you make the most of what goodwill you are receiving isn't it?
I could be wrong, but I would guess if you ask an advertiser if they sit back and don't capitalise on any success they would laugh you out of the office!
As the campaign goes on, people will forget the radio plugs, the paper ads. DO you think you can maintain this level of free advertising solely on it's own merits?
Word of mouth will get you so far, but to not take advantage of any success is insane!
As I said I never stop being surprised of the level of naivety of some people!
Take advantage of any success- surely this is obvious isn't it?
Some ePetitions got their numbers in 5 days!
What excuse is their to not take advantage of success?
It's so depressing that you just don't wan to see the truth!
I re-iterate I wouldn't have gone to parlaiment. I said IF I was forced to run the campaign in this way, that was how I have run things in the past!
I know exactly what you are doing, I see it on a daily basis. Those who are ultra close to this (the 10 or so on this forum) will not accept ANY criticism! WIll these people who have supported this defend it with the venom you are? Sure they will support, but they support the end result!
You seem to believe the ePetition is the end result!
How do you not get that you have to get MPs on board? MPs will rip you to shreds! Just ask Michael!!
You swim with sharks you need a shark cage. If you get the 100k you then meet politicians - or are you assuming it just gets an inquiry because it gets 100k
You are far too close to this my friend (I hope you allow me to call you that). I have said I want changes in how football is governed - where have I said otherwise???
Have you ever gone through the ePetition process before? I have. Some of my old fleet air arm buddies work with air rescue, so air ambulance was one of my babies I asked to help with (my first ePetition dealings).
The scheme had national recognition, so had a head start. Because it was high profile MPs were sniffing around the campaign). As I said after a couple of meetings, I left it to the organisers - they deserve the credit I am just a hanger on! But I really felt dirty afterwards. You could see in their eye their were weighing up if they thought votes were in this. As I said I felt dirty.
That is why I am happy to sit in the background. I try my best to help the campaigns I help with. Many fail. Some succeed. Since air ambulance I don't deal with ePetitions.
I can only go on personal experience. Will the ePetition get 100k (possibly) Is this the end game - NO?
You say this is not your only strategy, fine - but why are you waiting? Surely it is basic common sense that you make the most of what goodwill you are receiving isn't it?
I could be wrong, but I would guess if you ask an advertiser if they sit back and don't capitalise on any success they would laugh you out of the office!
As the campaign goes on, people will forget the radio plugs, the paper ads. DO you think you can maintain this level of free advertising solely on it's own merits?
Word of mouth will get you so far, but to not take advantage of any success is insane!
As I said I never stop being surprised of the level of naivety of some people!
Take advantage of any success- surely this is obvious isn't it?
Some ePetitions got their numbers in 5 days!
What excuse is their to not take advantage of success?
It's so depressing that you just don't wan to see the truth!
Rusty Trombone
Well-Known Member
You make some great points, you really do, and if you weren't so patronising people may take them on board. That would mean you wouldn't have to repeat everything over and over again, and that would benefit us all.
Having used my dipping in and out time to look at the ongoing discussion, can I ask svbet whether the help on offer through his suggestions will become something more tangible? I am personaly not that close to the petition but have helped where I can with raising awareness to it, and by definition the situation with football governance. There is of course a risk as to whether it will raise the required level of signatures, and of course if it would ultimately be heard in Parliament, but that shouldn't be enough of a barrier to stop people from trying.
I don't think we need to run around thanking each other all the time for any efforts that are put in, but there is a concern that some of the criticism, however constructive in intention, is offered in a negative fashion. There seem to be plenty on this forum who have knowledge and expertise in a diverse range of areas. We don't have to always agree, but at least push things forward in a positive light.
I am not "touchy" about this at all, just a bit bemused by the poster, and although not questioning his motives, just think the time put in could be more constructive. No more tit for tat text please, lets move on.
I don't think we need to run around thanking each other all the time for any efforts that are put in, but there is a concern that some of the criticism, however constructive in intention, is offered in a negative fashion. There seem to be plenty on this forum who have knowledge and expertise in a diverse range of areas. We don't have to always agree, but at least push things forward in a positive light.
I am not "touchy" about this at all, just a bit bemused by the poster, and although not questioning his motives, just think the time put in could be more constructive. No more tit for tat text please, lets move on.
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lewys33
Well-Known Member
I really do not get the point you are making ........ could you please clarify your stance?
do we try to get MP's on board because they can help? Or do they not have enough power? Or are you the man to save the day?
oh, and I am fairly certain most couldn't care less if they are jumping on the bandwagon to get more votes or not, as long as they are supporting.
do we try to get MP's on board because they can help? Or do they not have enough power? Or are you the man to save the day?
oh, and I am fairly certain most couldn't care less if they are jumping on the bandwagon to get more votes or not, as long as they are supporting.
Your attitude to this campaign is childish - I could say that of my first campaign! Everyone is protective of their baby. This is not a bad thing, but it becomes a bad thing if you carry that attitude forward!
I called you naive - everyone is naive at some point - I am quite happy to say you aren't naive if you have extensive experience of dealing with MPs - is this the case WM?
You seriously don't see how you are being aggressive?
You are asking for praise - why? Do you need to feel everyone to say well done?
Surely you should be doing this for the sake of football, not for personal gratification aren't you? Surely it is childish to demand praise for what you are doing isn't it? I;m not here to curry favour from fellow posters, I'm here to try and help move the campaign forward.
Have you a plan B? Are you going to contact MPs? If so what is stopping you do it today?
My first post was to ask why I should sign. Even now not one of the defenders of this campaign has been able to give me a valid rational evidenced based reason to sign other than intimidation pandering, or just plain dissmissiveness.
If you cannot convince me, how on earth do you expect to convince the majority of parliament which is needed to bring in a change in the law!
Naivety can be overcome, but from the response, those that are running with this just want affirmation praise and well dones!
I'm sorry, but mt children ask for that. I give it because they are children and have done the best they can.
So is this the best you can do? If you are sitting back waiting to see what happens, then you yourselves are as you say sitting on your backside doing nothing!
Contacting other clubs - fine. Where do you go when all have been contacted? Are you contacting these forums every day?
Are these forums discussing this issue as fervently as this one? I suspect not unless you go on day after day!
Why are you waiting until that is complete before you do the next thing? Every campaign I have worked on has gone through more than one plan of action. This is just a given! If I said to the people I work with just rely on this before we move on to the next - well let's just say I wouldn't be working with them much longer!
You can waste your time shooting down my arguments, and it may make you feel good. But surely your time would be better spent writing to MPs, trying to get your voice heard.
Sitting back on success is very naive. And I am sorry if that offends, If you want an apology fine, I apologise. But it does not chang the fact you are wasting your time and efforts shooting down one person - Personally I would take my opinions with as big a pinch of salt, ignore what you think is nonsense and act on anything you hadn't thought of. In my mind that would be the mature response.
To be clear I am not criticising you so much WM, but the general tone of responses towards my comments. Michael has just had a phone call from a newspaper. That is the way forward!
Not just relying on the signatures, that is naive in the extreme. The petition is the key to others. Now you have an open door you move in. Sitting back and relying on the numbers stacking up is insane!
Contact the papers, MPs radio stations. Start making noise! If you are just going to sit back when you have momentum is a scandal! I work with people who are open to new ideas. If you are just going to shoot down any possible criticism, then what is the point!
I have said almost from my first post, you need to go beyond just the petition. I hope the phone call leads to other things. You need MPs on board. Shutting up shop isn't the answer..
I am pleased to see Michael has taken at least some of my stuff on board. Hopefully the rest will take what I say on face value. My "agenda" is to get sisu out. Even if the rules of governance are changed, there is still no guarantee sisu will be gone will there!
This campaign needs to be fought on several fronts. If you cannot see that then fine. Seems Michael has,and that can only be positive!
But asking for praise because of what you have done so far - come on seriously?
Do you praise a fireman half way through fighting a fire, or afterwards? Get then job done THEN you well get a well deserved. Until that be a grown up, you probably don't care what I think so why does my praise matter?
Getting sisu out is the goal, not some obscure ePetition is my goal, what is yours?
Skyblueweeman
Well-Known Member
Right, let's go over this again sbvet!
* I am defensive and I don't apologise for that. People have worked hard on this and they don't deserve criticism. Critiquing is fine, so long as it's put forward in the correct manner.
* "I re-iterate I wouldn't have gone to parlaiment. I said IF I was forced to run the campaign in this way, that was how I have run things in the past!" Hmmm, am I the only one seeing a contradiction there?
* Read my post again, we're all open to suggestions. To criticise efforts is uncalled for...is pointing that out wrong? In the industry I work in, a lot of what I do is critiqued on a daily basis. I'm more than happy to accept criticism if deserved...but so far, after two weeks, we're about 15% of the way there in about 4% of the time. Nows not the time to criticse...now's the time to pull together.
* I have acknowledged that we need to get MPs on board. If you're going to try and pull my posts apart, fair do's, but do me the justice of at least reading them properly. I said that some MPs have signed and closer to the mark, they'll no doubt be asked to push it further within the House/Houses. Or did you just miss that part of my post you replied to?
* If you want change in football governance, stop writing a 'to do' list and write a 'done' list (for this one, not others). You've said you've helped successful epetitions...maybe my message isn't clear....,MEET MICHAEL TO DISCUSS, GET INVOLVED AND HELP RATHER THAN CRITICISE EFFORTS OF THOSE WHO ARE TRYING TO DO SOMETHING!!
* Why are we waiting to do other things? How do you know we are waiting? I can only speak for myself in that I have work and family committments that take precedence and then I offer what I can from my spare personal time.
* Some ePetitions get success in 5 days...you're right. But you admitted yourself on an earlier post that this is much less emotive to a large % of the population. A football epetition is going to take longer to hit the target than say, increasing nursing wages/staff numbers.
And where I have I said I don't want to see the truth? My eyes are wide open and I can see exactly what is going on. The difference being that this is the first time I've personally been involved in something like this and am open to suggestions whereas you're experienced in this, yet offer insults my way saying I don't want to see the truth? Bizarre.
I don't mind you calling me friend...we're both Sky Blue fans after all. I suggest you re-read my last bulleted post...and others actually. I don't disagree with a lot of what you're saying...I disagree with the way you put it across and wish you'd put some actions into place yourself rather than criticising. It's a bit like Messi taking the p*ss out of an 18 yr old trainee for not being able to dribble past 5 players.
Get on boad sbvet...you know you want to! I'm leaving it at that....if you want to continue to say I'm childish, naive etc, maybe rethink calling me friend.
Best wishes and all the best,
WM
J
Jack Griffin
Guest
I applaud the efforts of the people behind the e-petition. I really do and have got a few people to sign up.
Can't help thinking though that a few pitch demonstrations wouldn't be as good in gaining publicity. I've thought it since last summer and I'm puzzled why the younger people amongst our support haven't done it. A thousand of you on the pitch in a peaceful demo, the stewards wouldn't be able to stop you. Fans wouldn't get prosecuted with those kinds of numbers. Just very puzzled why the anger hasn't transferred into a peaceful demo. Even at my age I'd do it if enough will go for it.
A few will cry, it's against the law etc. What do you think Sisu are doing, don't you think they've bent the rules to suit themselves?
Can't help thinking though that a few pitch demonstrations wouldn't be as good in gaining publicity. I've thought it since last summer and I'm puzzled why the younger people amongst our support haven't done it. A thousand of you on the pitch in a peaceful demo, the stewards wouldn't be able to stop you. Fans wouldn't get prosecuted with those kinds of numbers. Just very puzzled why the anger hasn't transferred into a peaceful demo. Even at my age I'd do it if enough will go for it.
A few will cry, it's against the law etc. What do you think Sisu are doing, don't you think they've bent the rules to suit themselves?
J
Jack Griffin
Guest
I think it would be better to create a separate thread and move all his posts there, where they can be analysed.
Unfortunately the frequency & length of his posts on this thread are not terribly productive to our efforts. (32 posts, in this thread alone)
Are any mods prepared to do that?
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Bemused by the length and convoluted nature of the posts. Why not be more succinct and positive, considering the apparent passion for the subject. More bemusement to follow one suspects!
Skyblueweeman
Well-Known Member
I'm going to leave things here with you sbvet. It's not my baby, but something I'm happy to support. Our ideas differ so not point going on. Good luck with whichever route you choose to take.
WM
Nick
Administrator
I know what you mean, they are long but I can't really move them out as they aren't offensive or anything
Grendel
Well-Known Member
I think it would be better to create a separate thread and move all his posts there, where they can be analysed.
Unfortunately the frequency & length of his posts on this thread are not terribly productive to our efforts. (32 posts, in this thread alone)
Are any mods prepared to do that?
Can we move all of your posts to another forum - council talk?