England vs Italy (11 Viewers)

[Otis]

If Suarez was fit surely he would have played at some point yesterday. Back to England, I have been a big critic of welbeck but yesterday did not stop running and defending from the front. Rooney was shit as usual and I think the regret of not taking Cole will show

Rooney was poor.

It's a funny old game though. Had he scored from that chance inside the penalty box that he should have scored from, he would have scored one and created the other from that fab ball into the box.

A goal and an assist and it would have been much harder to criticise the bloke, but he was poor. Not sure dropping him is the answer. It may well be, bit there is also a question as to what exactly is his role and where he plays. He seems confused as to what his role is, where in the past he has been the main cog in the wheel and pretty much everything went through him.

He needs a clear role or we will need to drop him.

 

---

[henry the wasp]

"I thought wayne did very well. We know he can play in different positions and he can be satisfied with his performance."

Roy. Sometimes its best to say fuck all.

 

[Otis]

Completely agree sutty. He's a special player.


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He is a special player. Can't see anyone who has said he is not.

England's weakness however is our defence. Everyone to a single man would agree on that. So, with that in mind do you just let a midfield maestro pick his passes all day long and stroll around the park under no pressure whatsoever?

Is that anything like a plan? Did we put Pirlo under any pressure at all for any of the 90 mins?

You have to have a plan against the best players in the world.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Pirlo: as I said immediately post match to quote the commentator "plays in a different game to everyone else" sums him up. Other games he doesn't shine so much but teams that contain him are perhaps less frequently threatening Italy's goal - but their final ball is more accurate so they need fewer attempts than us!
Rooney: he can't be shit, he influences MUFC games all season, he can't be slow either otherwise he wouldn't be such a potent scorer for them. However, no one can put their finger on it but - he always looks like a square peg in a round hole at tournaments. "Experts" constantly saying he should play this or that role (Graham Taylor the latest "central role") but he's had so many chances now...drop him! Like I said before - I could've delivered a better corner than his behind the goal effort on any surface - & I haven't kicked a ball for 5yrs! Yes his ball in to Sturridge was great & he showed enough speed there. Is he the only player that could have done that? No. Ross Barkley posed more threat than Rooney in his 15mins on the pitch.

We have 2 must win games now. A draw v Uraguay is too risky...our fate could otherwise be decided by the strength of the team Italy put out having already won the group if they beat Costa Rica - too many ifs & buts - we MUST win both games.


PUSB

 

[stupot07]

If Suarez was fit surely he would have played at some point yesterday. Back to England, I have been a big critic of welbeck but yesterday did not stop running and defending from the front. Rooney was shit as usual and I think the regret of not taking Cole will show

He's probably about as fit as the Ox.


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[stupot07]

Interesting stats re: Rooney. Last season he scored 17 PL goals, 14 of which were against teams in the bottom half of the table.


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[Paxman II]

Stop this admiration of Pirlo. He was decent at times last night but not controlling. he has no pace and certainly no energy in those legs. At times we simply allowed him to splay the ball around but we knew this and he failed to hurt us with predictable passing tbh. The game was won by a sloppy defensive display by England. Should Hart have come off his line for that Balotelli goal?

Rooney is the elephant in the room I'm afraid. For too long has been poor. His game just does not fit with our team now. Drop him or pay a high price.

Gerrard needs to step up a bit - did not think he influenced or instigated much last night. Baines is suspect in defence but would not risk Shaw. Johnson has been poor recently but improved second half.
Henderson keeps a tidy game and a vital role as the other midfielders are attack minded players. Welbeck I quite like but you just can't ask strikers to keep playing wide and expect the best from them?

So for me we were a little unlucky on the night, Italy were flattered slightly and probably in the dressing room feeling they pretty much stole a win. they are not very good we made them look better than they were. We failed to rattle at the heels of their players and allowed them to play themselves into the game when we should have driven at them much more. We created more, had more efforts on goal which on another day Henderson, Sturridge, Baines, would have scored. But you must take your chances and Rooney should have.

I want to see our young guns go for it still. Please do not bring in the old guard, Lampard and co, whatever happens. Barkely is not ready yet, Wilshire is poor and offers little for our set up.

I'd play this team next:

Jones........Cahill.....Jagielka......Baines

................Gerrard............................

....Stirling.....Henderson.....LLanna

.....................Struridge.................................

Bench: Barkley, The Ox, Welbeck, Shaw, Johnson.

Jones will provide extra defensive stability if Suarez plays. LLanna will interplay well with Sturridge as a playmaker. Stirling will threaten all day and knows the ball Sturridge wants. Henderson will sit in and play keep ball and not give it away while Gerrard can bring it out and spread it wide. Henderson, Llanna and Stirling all have the legs to go up and down.

 

[Sutty]

So why isn't he just a master class and winning every game for Italy? There has to be a counter for him surely. You can't just let him spray the ball about the park all day long.

Didn't say it was simple, Sutty, just saying we just allowed him all the time in the world all game long and didn't even attempt to close him down.

Pele used to have one of the best footballing brains on the planet too but at times he was crowded out of games and really closely marked to prevent him doing too much damage. He was snuffed out of games at times. You can't just let a player like that have all the time in the world to pick his pass. You need someone nipping at his heels all game long. Knock him off his stride, hurry his passing game.

Think you will find he is a football player not a god. Players such as that can win games for their teams easily for sure, if you allow them to. What did we try and do to counter him?

Last 20 games Italy have won just 6.

Not saying it was simple, but we should have least tried to knock him out of his stride, put pressure on him and put in a couple of meaty challenges on the player. It was like a training exercise for him all game long.

Yes, he's a great player, but he is not some superhuman. Someone nipping at his heels a bit, the way Welbeck was nipping at the defence's heels all game long might have made a bit of a difference.

Bottom line is you don't allow the best players in the world all the time in the world on the ball. That'll kill you all game long.

To be fair he was the key player in Italy's world cup win in '06, it's not like we're the only side that struggles to stop him playing. I thought we did a better job on him than 4 years ago mind. He wasn't quite so influential this time.

The way to deal with a player like that is a good aggressive, cohesive, midfield press. You have to quickly get to him, make him play his passes quickly. The problem was our defence was sitting fairly deep because they were concerned with Balotelli's pace in behind them. That meant when the midfield did push up it left space between the midfield and defensive lines, space which Marchisio and Candreva used brilliantly, and Pirlo could just chip first time passes into them.

I think we could have stopped Pirlo by being a bit braver, pushing the defensive line 5-10 yards up the pitch, encouraging a more rapid press on him. I think that would have led to Balotelli (and Immobile later on) becoming more involved in the game.

All in all I was happy with the performance England put in, the result came down to Italy simply being a slightly better side. Not only was Pirlo excellent, but Italy's less heralded players like Marchisio, Candreva and Darmian all put in great performances.

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

Danny Murphy who was managed by Hodgson for several years called it on Pirlo, he said it wasn't Hodgsons style to try an man mark him or devise a special game plan to stop him playing

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

Stop this admiration of Pirlo. He was decent at times last night but not controlling. he has no pace and certainly no energy in those legs. At times we simply allowed him to splay the ball around but we knew this and he failed to hurt us with predictable passing tbh. The game was won by a sloppy defensive display by England. Should Hart have come off his line for that Balotelli goal?

Rooney is the elephant in the room I'm afraid. For too long has been poor. His game just does not fit with our team now. Drop him or pay a high price.

Gerrard needs to step up a bit - did not think he influenced or instigated much last night. Baines is suspect in defence but would not risk Shaw. Johnson has been poor recently but improved second half.
Henderson keeps a tidy game and a vital role as the other midfielders are attack minded players. Welbeck I quite like but you just can't ask strikers to keep playing wide and expect the best from them?

So for me we were a little unlucky on the night, Italy were flattered slightly and probably in the dressing room feeling they pretty much stole a win. they are not very good we made them look better than they were. We failed to rattle at the heels of their players and allowed them to play themselves into the game when we should have driven at them much more. We created more, had more efforts on goal which on another day Henderson, Sturridge, Baines, would have scored. But you must take your chances and Rooney should have.

I want to see our young guns go for it still. Please do not bring in the old guard, Lampard and co, whatever happens. Barkely is not ready yet, Wilshire is poor and offers little for our set up.

I'd play this team next:

Jones........Cahill.....Jagielka......Baines

................Gerrard............................

....Stirling.....Henderson.....LLanna

.....................Struridge.................................

Bench: Barkley, The Ox, Welbeck, Shaw, Johnson.

Jones will provide extra defensive stability if Suarez plays. LLanna will interplay well with Sturridge as a playmaker. Stirling will threaten all day and knows the ball Sturridge wants. Henderson will sit in and play keep ball and not give it away while Gerrard can bring it out and spread it wide. Henderson, Llanna and Stirling all have the legs to go up and down.

Playing with 10 men, an interesting tactic. Could catch Uruguay by surprise, thinking outside the box I see

 

[stupot07]

So for me we were a little unlucky on the night, Italy were flattered slightly and probably in the dressing room feeling they pretty much stole a win.

Having hit the woodwork twice and has one cleared off the line I imagine they probably didn't sit in the dressing room feeling they stole the win.





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[Paxman II]

Yep got carried away with my thoughts! It's the Ox to be added in Midfield if fit or Welbeck wide.

They did hit the woodwork Stu but were flattering to deceive at that point. Pirlo's free kick all but academic by then but I don't remember many saves from Hart? their goal keeper had a lot to do and did it competently in the absence of Buffon it must be said.

Jones will help out Gerrard's legs and assist the central pairing when needed most. Stirling can come back all day and does it well and Henderson can go across if Jones is pulled out. On the Baines flank the Ox will give him support much need against Italy that was not there.
We also have the versatility of Milner available...

 

[Paxman II]

One point: If Sturridge is not fit for Uruguay do you play lambert or stick Rooney up front in his favoured position?

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Stop this admiration of Pirlo. He was decent at times last night but not controlling. he has no pace and certainly no energy in those legs. At times we simply allowed him to splay the ball around but we knew this and he failed to hurt us with predictable passing tbh. The game was won by a sloppy defensive display by England. Should Hart have come off his line for that Balotelli goal?

Rooney is the elephant in the room I'm afraid. For too long has been poor. His game just does not fit with our team now. Drop him or pay a high price.

Gerrard needs to step up a bit - did not think he influenced or instigated much last night. Baines is suspect in defence but would not risk Shaw. Johnson has been poor recently but improved second half.
Henderson keeps a tidy game and a vital role as the other midfielders are attack minded players. Welbeck I quite like but you just can't ask strikers to keep playing wide and expect the best from them?

So for me we were a little unlucky on the night, Italy were flattered slightly and probably in the dressing room feeling they pretty much stole a win. they are not very good we made them look better than they were. We failed to rattle at the heels of their players and allowed them to play themselves into the game when we should have driven at them much more. We created more, had more efforts on goal which on another day Henderson, Sturridge, Baines, would have scored. But you must take your chances and Rooney should have.

I want to see our young guns go for it still. Please do not bring in the old guard, Lampard and co, whatever happens. Barkely is not ready yet, Wilshire is poor and offers little for our set up.

I'd play this team next:

Jones........Cahill.....Jagielka......Baines

................Gerrard............................

....Stirling.....Henderson.....LLanna

.....................Struridge.................................

Bench: Barkley, The Ox, Welbeck, Shaw, Johnson.

Jones will provide extra defensive stability if Suarez plays. LLanna will interplay well with Sturridge as a playmaker. Stirling will threaten all day and knows the ball Sturridge wants. Henderson will sit in and play keep ball and not give it away while Gerrard can bring it out and spread it wide. Henderson, Llanna and Stirling all have the legs to go up and down.

Re Pirlo: you must've watched a different game to most of us

Re Gerrard: I agree - his most obvious telling contribution was the shit pass he did that led to the injury time onslaught in 1st half added time where they hit the post. They knew they had a nice rest at 1/2 time coming up so threw the kitchen-sink at us as a result!


PUSB

 

[Otis]

To be fair he was the key player in Italy's world cup win in '06, it's not like we're the only side that struggles to stop him playing. I thought we did a better job on him than 4 years ago mind. He wasn't quite so influential this time.

The way to deal with a player like that is a good aggressive, cohesive, midfield press. You have to quickly get to him, make him play his passes quickly. The problem was our defence was sitting fairly deep because they were concerned with Balotelli's pace in behind them. That meant when the midfield did push up it left space between the midfield and defensive lines, space which Marchisio and Candreva used brilliantly, and Pirlo could just chip first time passes into them.

I think we could have stopped Pirlo by being a bit braver, pushing the defensive line 5-10 yards up the pitch, encouraging a more rapid press on him. I think that would have led to Balotelli (and Immobile later on) becoming more involved in the game.

All in all I was happy with the performance England put in, the result came down to Italy simply being a slightly better side. Not only was Pirlo excellent, but Italy's less heralded players like Marchisio, Candreva and Darmian all put in great performances.

Totally agree with that, Sutty.

A hard player to stop and prevent him playing his game, but if you don't even try to stop him playing his game then what's the point? Pushing the defence up would have given him less space to operate in for sure. Guessing Hodgson may have felt that would leave us susceptible to balls over the top of our back four.

Annoying really, because just for a few little things here and there I think we could have easily had the game won.

 

[RegTheDonk]

......
Bring on Uruguay, though I also have to say, I don't necessarily subscribe to this game being a must win.

Think we can win and quietly confident we will win, but if Italy beat Costa Rica, that will put Italy on 6 points and Costa Rica on 3.

A draw for us against Uruguay would have both teams on 1 point each, with Costa Rica to come for us and Italy to come for Uruguay in the last group games. Therefore a win in England's final game against Costa Rica would give us 4 points, have Costa Rica remaining on 3 and leave Uruguay having to beat Italy.

This next game I don't believe is a must win. Do think we will win though anyway. What happens between Italy and Costa Rica could well be key. Win for Italy and I think 4 points will take us through.

Yes, there's a few equations which doesn't mean its the end of the world yet.

I'm reminded of Mexico 86. Poor in the first two games, only a point gained, and we should have gone out with 10 men on the park. Then it came good and could have made the semis if not for the hand of god.

Glass is still half full at this point.

 

[Marty]

You can make excuses all you want about not closing Pirlo down, but the simple fact is, for the goals we were woeful, the first came from a corner where the whole team had switched off, the overhead view was great, showed how little closing down went on, we didn't realise it was taken until he was lining up his shot. Same thing happened just before half time when they hit the post, they were sleeping. I don't know where to start for the second goal, errors all over the pitch.
Poor defending cost us.

 

[Paxman II]

..I say again with Sturridge out (if he does not recover) who plays?

 

[stupot07]

..I say again with Sturridge out (if he does not recover) who plays?

Rooney. I felt we should have brought lambert on last night.


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[Houchens Head]

Rooney should never have been on the plane to Brazil! He's a useless lump of lard.

 

[Houchens Head]

I hear England have a new Captain after next week. His name's Roger Smith and he's the pilot for the flight home!

 

[Otis]

You can make excuses all you want about not closing Pirlo down, but the simple fact is, for the goals we were woeful, the first came from a corner where the whole team had switched off, the overhead view was great, showed how little closing down went on, we didn't realise it was taken until he was lining up his shot. Same thing happened just before half time when they hit the post, they were sleeping. I don't know where to start for the second goal, errors all over the pitch.
Poor defending cost us.

Who's making excuses about closing Pirlo down, Marty? I actually quite clearly said that our poor defending let us down and cost us.

Back to the Pirlo thing though, if he hasn't got the ball he can't hurt us. That's pretty simple.

3 things let us down I feel, and in the following order.

1. Poor defending, especially in not stop the tidal wave of attacking down our left hand side.

2. Our poor crossing and as the game worse on, poor shooting too.

3. Giving Pirlo too much space and allowing him to control the game without any hindrance or pressure from our players.

It's not an excuse, for me these are plain facts.

 

[stupot07]

Ian wright and lee Dixon on itv

Hart 5, 6
Johnson 5, 6
Baines 5, 5 lee Dixon says not his fault left exposed by Rooney
Cahill 6, 6
Jagielka 6, 6
Gerrard 6, 6
Henderson 5, 5
Rooney 5, 4
Sterling 8, 8
Sturridge 8, 7
Wellbeck 7, 7

Barkley 6 - game past him buy a touch.


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[Otis]

Baines was exposed, but still had a poor game to my mind.

 

[AngryAnt]

I only got to listen to the game on 5 Live last night (one earphone in while working) and caught the 3min catch up highlights on the beeb when I got in.
But were we really that bad? 5Live said we played fairly well and just tired out towards the end (compared to the Italian players who didn't cramp at all). They did say that Baines was left exposed alot and no one was coming in to help him, but besides that we weren't bad, Italy were just better.

Were they right? Or were we terrible and should go home now?

 

[Jack Griffin]

The Lu Shwareh ‏@ThoseScouseLads 16h

Have you been injured at work in an accident that wasn't your fault? pic.twitter.com/nNVj7o7rb3

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

I only got to listen to the game on 5 Live last night (one earphone in while working) and caught the 3min catch up highlights on the beeb when I got in.
But were we really that bad? 5Live said we played fairly well and just tired out towards the end (compared to the Italian players who didn't cramp at all). They did say that Baines was left exposed alot and no one was coming in to help him, but besides that we weren't bad, Italy were just better.

Were they right? Or were we terrible and should go home now?

We were ok, could've drawn on another day.

Still confident of progress

 

[stupot07]

We were ok, could've drawn on another day.

Still confident of progress

Yeah agree with that. We were ok, quite exciting in attack albeit on creating many chances with most coming from long range efforts. Apart from a brief spell in the first half Italy controlled the game, we played on the counter. As soon as they scored the second, they dropped 10 yards deeper and put on a couple of more defensive minded players to ensure we couldn't counter too much. Better than 2 years ago.


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[SkyblueBazza]

We were ok, could've drawn on another day.

Still confident of progress

And on another day they could have won 5-1 instead


PUSB

 

[Jack Griffin]

Who's making excuses about closing Pirlo down, Marty? I actually quite clearly said that our poor defending let us down and cost us.

Back to the Pirlo thing though, if he hasn't got the ball he can't hurt us. That's pretty simple.

3 things let us down I feel, and in the following order.

1. Poor defending, especially in not stop the tidal wave of attacking down our left hand side.

2. Our poor crossing and as the game worse on, poor shooting too.

3. Giving Pirlo too much space and allowing him to control the game without any hindrance or pressure from our players.

It's not an excuse, for me these are plain facts.

The first goal absolutely no England player was closing down oncoming midfielders, everyone except Sturridge (& who's that at left back, doing nothing useful, Stirling?) was in the box & hegot suckered by Pirlos dummy. Hart didn't see the shot as it came through the mass of white shirts till it was too late.

PS I'm not sure for this distance where Welbeck, Sturridge & Stirling are.. but 2 of th 3 are on left flank.

PS Got Italy in office sweep, so every cloud has a silver lining..

 

[savosdad]

What the fuck do man utd see in paying 300,000 per week are they on Crack?

 

[rob9872]

Brilliant we let two sloppy goals in and everyone wants to kill Rooney for it. He should have scored, but this constant blaming of him when it goes wrong is just crazy. The guy is still quality would walk into most international teams and has 39 goals, could still be our greatest ever goalscorer but because he once snagged some granny there has been years of blaming him for everything. Without him we wouldn't have qualified. As for shearer the selfish bastard who quit England to prolong his club career and earn money winning nothing to criticise someone who loves the game and works his socks off well fk off shearer disliked you as a player and lime you less as a pundit. Hopefully Rooney plays and scores in the next to ram it back down your throats.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Brilliant we let two sloppy goals in and everyone wants to kill Rooney for it. He should have scored, but this constant blaming of him when it goes wrong is just crazy. The guy is still quality would walk into most international teams and has 39 goals, could still be our greatest ever goalscorer but because he once snagged some granny there has been years of blaming him for everything. Without him we wouldn't have qualified. As for shearer the selfish bastard who quit England to prolong his club career and earn money winning nothing to criticise someone who loves the game and works his socks off well fk off shearer disliked you as a player and lime you less as a pundit. Hopefully Rooney plays and scores in the next to ram it back down your throats.

All people are really blaming him for is that he's a striker/attacking midfielder...scores lots of goals for MUFC & even international friendlies & qualifiers...but you cannot argue with the fact 3 world cups & thus far 0 goals. No need to cite "injured" or "not fully fit" - he ought perhaps declare that up front or not be picked. Fact is he cannot cut the mustard against the standard of teams that we meet at this level.
IF he scores a winner in each of the next two games maybe he'll gain hero stays for England too. Might be short-lived though depending on who we got in the next round!


PUSB

 

[Nick]

I don't see why if he isn't playing in his position he shouldn't be dropped. Can't just stick him somewhere and expect him to deliver.

Just drop him and put somebody better in that position there.

 

[wingy]

I don't see why if he isn't playing in his position he shouldn't be dropped. Can't just stick him somewhere and expect him to deliver.

Just drop him and put somebody better in that position there.

This is most likely his last WC ,we are not expected to go far ,Is he truly world class ,I'm not convinced .

What Is his role ,not a centre forward ,No 10,play him there or not at all.