Victory for the City of Coventry yesterday (7 Viewers)

[duffer]

The point for the council is SISU were not looking like they would do the deal.
They repeatedly stated they are moving out.
Even if wasps only draw in 5000 every second week. That's 5000 more than nobody.

I'm not defending SISU's actions here - but the council went from rebuilding trust to selling ACL (without even making the same or a similar offer available to the club) in a matter of weeks.

Do you think, as the financial reality of building a new stadium finally dawned on SISU, that there wouldn't have been scope for a deal there? It's just that most people here could see that the new stadium wasn't likely to happen, and wasn't really needed whilst there was an option at the table for the Ricoh. That option is gone now, that hope is dead. The people who talked about rebuilding trust clearly had no intention of doing so.

Two questions to ask yourself, before you describe this as a victory:

1) Are the club more likely to move out of the city (or alternatively struggle under FFP) as a result of selling to Wasps?

2) Is a struggling or non-existent football club worth what the city will get for bringing in Wasps?

And this is before we even get into the morality of legitimising franchising - best avoid that bit completely I suppose.

 

---

[Senior Vick from Alicante]

Yeh they've made a fortune out of our club right? With all that extra revenue to come they would have been back in the black around the time Wasps lease runs out.

They have made a mockery out of our club, not a fortune. With their track record would they have spent any extra income on the club? I don't think they would do you? Why would a company that makes money from toxic debt bundles and business invest. Investment is not in their strategy for business.

 

[dongonzalos]

I'm not defending SISU's actions here - but the council went from rebuilding trust to selling ACL (without even making the same or a similar offer available to the club) in a matter of weeks.

Do you think, as the financial reality of building a new stadium finally dawned on SISU, that there wouldn't have been scope for a deal there? It's just that most people here could see that the new stadium wasn't likely to happen, and wasn't really needed whilst there was an option at the table for the Ricoh. That option is gone now, that hope is dead. The people who talked about rebuilding trust clearly had no intention of doing so.

Two questions to ask yourself, before you describe this as a victory:

1) Are the club more likely to move out of the city (or alternatively struggle under FFP) as a result of selling to Wasps?

2) Is a struggling or non-existent football club worth what the city will get for bringing in Wasps?

And this is before we even get into the morality of legitimising franchising - best avoid that bit completely I suppose.

I haven't described it as a victory
I think it is a very sad situation.

The council would have considered the potential costs of not bringing in wasps.

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

Wasps barely get 4-5k where they are located now anyway so unless I'm missing something what's the big attraction of having a premiership rugby club in the city? Even a shitty league 1 football club who's been in decline for the last 20 years bring in more footfall to the area and generate more money for local businesses.

 

[Samo]

They have made a mockery out of our club, not a fortune. With their track record would they have spent any extra income on the club? I don't think they would do you? Why would a company that makes money from toxic debt bundles and business invest. Investment is not in their strategy for business.

If that is the case they may as well walk away now, and yet they don't... why is that?

 

[WestEndAgro]

3, their names are John Constsdine, Hamesh Dines and Sadar Patel.
Them getting their jobs will contribute an extra 420,000 to the Coventry Economy over 15 years. This is a multiplier effect of following the audit trail of where their earning go once they are spent. For example Sadar will employ local building firm the Kavanaghs on 3rd of April 2015 to build an extension.
The Kavanaghs intend to use the profit from this job on a car from the Nissan Garage near Spon End.
When they do that it gives Paul Jones his sales bonus. He will spend that in Eden on his wifes birthday on May 15th 2015. Helping a local business.

Sorry that I left out the detail before hope with these specifics it is clearer now.

I worked with Hamesh Dines and Sadar Patel afew years ago, if I was Tescos I wouldn't employ either of them, as for the other guy, he may be okay !

 

[Sutty]

Good old council for having the backbone to stand up to that Mayfair-based immoral hedge fund. It's much, much better that they've sold the stadium to... erm... a different hedge fund.

You couldn't make it up.

 

[Jack Griffin]

I'd agree with most of this. But it seems people haven't woken up to the fact that even when SISU have gone, and one day they will, ACL and all of the income streams therein will still belong to Wasps. Where does that leave CCFC?

In the place SISU have taken them to.

 

[Rusty Trombone]

The million write off was stated in CET amongst other places when the Wasps deal first went public.

From a Cov economy point of view, if the tickets are being given away it points to both the likely success of the commercial operation, and also puts the lie to the fact that rugby is a huge draw. How long do you think giving thousands of tickets away is sustainable for Wasps?

And Wasps being a big draw was a key part of the Council argument - you know the £6m to the local economy from the 28,000 point that Lucas banged on about. (Neither that attendance nor the revenue claimed from it stands up to scrutiny, sadly).

The lease may well revert if Wasps go pop. Who do you think is going to buy it, and do you think they'll be willing to take on the full value that Wasps paid? By then the club really may have moved on, or gone under.

The taxpayer is still at risk, and it's shown everything else the council has said about ACL and the profitability surronding the Ricoh to be a lie. Why would anyone be daft enough to believe they're suddenly telling the truth now?

And again - if this forces CCFC out or under, then clearly there's a significant loss to the local economy. I note you negelected to address that point. I'd say it's time to quit pretending this is a great deal for the city, and accept that it was about getting away from SISU. Understandable, but also hypocritical and short-sighted, imho. Certainly not a 'victory'.

i don't think the council have written £1m off, but if they have I'm sure someone can find a link.

They have said they are giving tickets away for 3 games, so I guess they think that is sustainable. Even very big successful companies give discounts and offers, just check out Nicks new website for more details.

If wasps go under I'm sure there would be others, including the club, who would be interested, and of course by then the loan would be a lower amount.

how has the sale shown that profitability of ACL is a lie? you haven't got any figures to support that have you?

The club wanted a 4 year rent, that's what they have got, so this particular change in management company owners isn't the action that will be the pivotal point in any demise of ccfc.

 

[Jack Griffin]

It will be instructive to see the accounts.. due in about 4 months.

 

[dadgad]

Good old council for having the backbone to stand up to that Mayfair-based immoral hedge fund. It's much, much better that they've sold the stadium to... erm... a different hedge fund.

You couldn't make it up.

Who do not (due to the mountain of evidence) have a record of lying, obfuscation and opportunism.
Most understand that, some don't.

 

[torchomatic]

Fuck off, Ginetta.

 

[Grendel]

You personally may not give a shit, however the person who gets a job at tescos because of it will. They will then spend their money in the city. They may spend it doing up their house and employ a local tradesman and so on so on

You or me can just look at it as this is shit for CCFC. The council have to look wider than that.

There will not be one person who gets a job because if wasps getting into arena park and all the profits those companies make will go to their shareholders.

What rot you spout.

 

[Grendel]

You would have to wait for research in a few years to say how much it has benefited Coventry.

It will though, the profile if the city will raise.
At all levels including playing Staff are likely to eventually own or rent property in the area.
Wasps plan to build a training facility here.
Jobs at ACL itself should hopefully be more secure.
If Wasps are successful and you get big European matches like before. That was estimated to have brought millions into the local economy.

As I say to my shock I spoke to a few people from the Birmingham region. Who intend to come. They do not consider themselves wasps fans. That's a handfuls I spoke to so I wonder how many others from outside Coventry will come in.

A local charity will now get 50p per ticket from the ticket sales.

The Ricoh itself will get more publicity which should improve the conferencing side of things again which will have a knock effect for employment.

The casino, tescos, KFC, M&S, Next

I don't think you will find a single person who will say wasps coming to Coventry will bring in less income to the Coventry economy.

Just out of interest how well did Wycombe do out if the move and how many jobs will be lost now they are gone?

 

[Sterling Archer]

And what happens when SISU do "fuck off"? I'm genuinely intrigued.

I'm not supporting them but the naivety of some people thinking its as easy as them just "fucking off" to solve all issues is baffling.

Surely unless there is a decent alternative, we're just as fucked, just as homeless and just as shit on and off the pitch?.

 

[mgw747]

Grow up, stop arguing, move on. The Ricoh has. As a season ticket holder of 30 + years like GinettasStickySofa I gave it up 2 years ago. SISU had run the club into the buffers and it was obvious. Move on if you like rugby get behind wasps and watch them I will, if you don't just go to Cov games. Stop bloody bleating, hope SISU F off asap they are the worst owners ccfc have had. Oh yes please do not mention ccc or Higgs again. In the history of ccfc they are no longer relevant. Let's see if RFC can now honestly judge the actions of SISU going forward


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[dongonzalos]

Just out of interest how well did Wycombe do out if the move and how many jobs will be lost now they are gone?

I don't know, do you?

I imagine it didn't improve their economic economy

 

[Samo]

Grow up, stop arguing, move on. The Ricoh has. As a season ticket holder of 30 + years like GinettasStickySofa I gave it up 2 years ago. SISU had run the club into the buffers and it was obvious. Move on if you like rugby get behind wasps and watch them I will, if you don't just go to Cov games. Stop bloody bleating, hope SISU F off asap they are the worst owners ccfc have had. Oh yes please do not mention ccc or Higgs again. In the history of ccfc they are no longer relevant. Let's see if RFC can now honestly judge the actions of SISU going forward

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Why would you watch Wasps over Cov? Are you from London?

 

[dongonzalos]

'WASPS’ decision to leave High Wycombe will cost the South Bucks economy millions of pounds a year.'

Their local papers opinion.
Putting two and two together it would suggest that it will benefit Coventry to similar numbers

 

[mgw747]

Good point Samo, I do some times. Not London but Northampton so mainly go to saints games. First sport I watched with my dad was at Coundon Road but I used to ask him to take me to ccfc just as often


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[mgw747]

oh Samo did live in London for a few years in the 80s but still regularly got back to highfield road. What are your credentials


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[Grendel]

'WASPS’ decision to leave High Wycombe will cost the South Bucks economy millions of pounds a year.'

Their local papers opinion.
Putting two and two together it would suggest that it will benefit Coventry to similar numbers

Funnily enough I was on Wycombe two days ago. I did not see people trudging around in dejection and poverty.

What really fucks me off with you is the suggestion this has been done to generate money in the local economy and to benefit the charity. It hasn't has it its because ACL as a business is finished as without CCFC paying millions a year it was doomed to fail.

The argument anyway is astounding. Most council owned stadiums give the football club very preferential terms. The local community supports the local sports clubs. What you are saying is that the likes of Ipswich Swansea Hull etc have councils that are wrong to support the local community. They should encourage franchising and tout other sporting clubs from around the U.K.. Tell you what post on the local Ipswich newspaper and say that the council have missed an economic opportunity to get a premier rugby club into Ipswich. Sell the ground and boot the local club out. Explain the millions extra they will get. See what response you get .

As an aside when this news was announced most people I work with assumed CCFC owned the Ricoh.pst thought it odd - most didn't care less.

 

[dongonzalos]

Funnily enough I was on Wycombe two days ago. I did not see people trudging around in dejection and poverty.

What really fucks me off with you is the suggestion this has been done to generate money in the local economy and to benefit the charity. It hasn't has it its because ACL as a business is finished as without CCFC paying millions a year it was doomed to fail.

The argument anyway is astounding. Most council owned stadiums give the football club very preferential terms. The local community supports the local sports clubs. What you are saying is that the likes of Ipswich Swansea Hull etc have councils that are wrong to support the local community. They should encourage franchising and tout other sporting clubs from around the U.K.. Tell you what post on the local Ipswich newspaper and say that the council have missed an economic opportunity to get a premier rugby club into Ipswich. Sell the ground and boot the local club out. Explain the millions extra they will get. See what response you get .

As an aside when this news was announced most people I work with assumed CCFC owned the Ricoh.pst thought it odd - most didn't care less.

Most of what you just said is utter tosh and deflection as usual.
I would have preferred the football club to buy into ACL. (That statement puts and end to most of the rubbish you just spouted)

The owners of the football club screwed that up for us.

All I am saying now is in the circumstances I can see why the council but off wasps hands.

 

[duffer]

i don't think the council have written £1m off, but if they have I'm sure someone can find a link.

They have said they are giving tickets away for 3 games, so I guess they think that is sustainable. Even very big successful companies give discounts and offers, just check out Nicks new website for more details.

If wasps go under I'm sure there would be others, including the club, who would be interested, and of course by then the loan would be a lower amount.

how has the sale shown that profitability of ACL is a lie? you haven't got any figures to support that have you?

The club wanted a 4 year rent, that's what they have got, so this particular change in management company owners isn't the action that will be the pivotal point in any demise of ccfc.

Big companies certainly give offers all of the time. But do really think this is an offer in that sense, or is it because they actually can't sell enough tickets and it's a little embarassing to have a half-empty (or worse) stadium for something that was supposed to be a big draw. Again, do you think it's sustainable to do this long term?

The milion pound write off was here...

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/ricoh-arena-takeover-bid-rugby-7873182

Although in fairness later articles cast doubt on it. I'll accept that. It will come out eventually, so the council hiding behind NDAs is pathetic, unless of course they're a bit worried or ashamed about what they've done.

As for the lies, that's obvious, no links needed. At a number of points ACL was described by the council as profitable and sustainable with or without CCFC. And then suddenly, it wasn't, it was just 'washing it's face'. One of those, by definition, has to be untrue.

And then of course there's the rebuilding trust quote - are you telling me that wasn't said at exactly the same time that CCC were in negotiation with Wasps? Another lie.

And people are defending those lies here. Right here. FFS, as long as SISU lose it seems there are plenty here who can let anything go by the council.

So, three straight questions.

Are CCFC more or less likely to move now that ACL has been sold to Wasps?

Are CCFC more or less likely to be able to get hold of the Ricoh income streams now that ACL has been sold to Wasps?

Would CCFC leaving the city, or going under, mean that the city would be better or worse off overall?

You can dance around those issues as much as you like to try to defend the council's actions, but the answers to those questions are absolutely obvious. SISU might have run the club into the ground, but it's the council and Higgs who have made the irreversible decision to shut the door to the Ricoh.

*And the four year rent was a contractual obligation to CCFC, so let's not pretend there have been any favours to the club there.

 

[Grendel]

Most of what you just said is utter tosh and deflection as usual.
I would have preferred the football club to buy into ACL. (That statement puts and end to most of the rubbish you just spouted)

The owners of the football club screwed that up for us.

All I am saying now is in the circumstances I can see why the council but off wasps hands.

No Don its not diversion. Ipswich hull Swansea etc all rent. You gave argued all through this thread benefit to the local economy financially is the key.

So if the council owned a small stadium say like Shrewsbury and waspd asked to buy it you'd say yes as council leader wouldn't you?

 

[Nick]

Big companies certainly give offers all of the time. But do really think this is an offer in that sense, or is it because they actually can't sell enough tickets and it's a little embarassing to have a half-empty (or worse) stadium for something that was supposed to be a big draw. Again, do you think it's sustainable to do this long term?

The milion pound write off was here...

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/ricoh-arena-takeover-bid-rugby-7873182

Although in fairness later articles cast doubt on it. I'll accept that. It will come out eventually, so the council hiding behind NDAs is pathetic, unless of course they're a bit worried or ashamed about what they've done.

As for the lies, that's obvious, no links needed. At a number of points ACL was described by the council as profitable and sustainable with or without CCFC. And then suddenly, it wasn't, it was just 'washing it's face'. One of those, by definition, has to be untrue.

And then of course there's the rebuilding trust quote - are you telling me that wasn't said at exactly the same time that CCC were in negotiation with Wasps? Another lie.

And people are defending those lies here. Right here. FFS, as long as SISU lose it seems there are plenty here who can let anything go by the council.

So, three straight questions.

Are CCFC more or less likely to move now that ACL has been sold to Wasps?

Are CCFC more or less likely to be able to get hold of the Ricoh income streams now that ACL has been sold to Wasps?

Would CCFC leaving the city, or going under, mean that the city would be better or worse off overall?

You can dance around those issues as much as you like to try to defend the council's actions, but the answers to those questions are absolutely obvious. SISU might have run the club into the ground, but it's the council and Higgs who have made the irreversible decision to shut the door to the Ricoh.

*And the four year rent was a contractual obligation to CCFC, so let's not pretend there have been any favours to the club there.

If I remember, people were obsessed with Free Tickets at Sixfields. That was just to boost numbers out of embarrassment but now Wasps do it it is good PR

 

[dongonzalos]

No Don its not diversion. Ipswich hull Swansea etc all rent. You gave argued all through this thread benefit to the local economy financially is the key.

So if the council owned a small stadium say like Shrewsbury and waspd asked to buy it you'd say yes as council leader wouldn't you?

The starting point always for me is we should have bought the share we didn't.

We continued to relentlessly play games.
I now understand why the council accepted wasps offer.

I would be outraged if we were trying to buy ACL

Not put it out of business
Not adamantly saying we were moving out if Cov
Not saying Freehold or nothing
Not suing the people we may need to strike a deal with.

If we were putting in a straight forward bid for ACL like wasps did and the council rejected it then sold it to wasps fair enough.

However it isn't like that we tried to screw ACL out of business and played constant games. We created this situation

 

[Grendel]

Big companies certainly give offers all of the time. But do really think this is an offer in that sense, or is it because they actually can't sell enough tickets and it's a little embarassing to have a half-empty (or worse) stadium for something that was supposed to be a big draw. Again, do you think it's sustainable to do this long term?

The milion pound write off was here...

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/ricoh-arena-takeover-bid-rugby-7873182

Although in fairness later articles cast doubt on it. I'll accept that. It will come out eventually, so the council hiding behind NDAs is pathetic, unless of course they're a bit worried or ashamed about what they've done.

As for the lies, that's obvious, no links needed. At a number of points ACL was described by the council as profitable and sustainable with or without CCFC. And then suddenly, it wasn't, it was just 'washing it's face'. One of those, by definition, has to be untrue.

And then of course there's the rebuilding trust quote - are you telling me that wasn't said at exactly the same time that CCC were in negotiation with Wasps? Another lie.

And people are defending those lies here. Right here. FFS, as long as SISU lose it seems there are plenty here who can let anything go by the council.

So, three straight questions.

Are CCFC more or less likely to move now that ACL has been sold to Wasps?

Are CCFC more or less likely to be able to get hold of the Ricoh income streams now that ACL has been sold to Wasps?

Would CCFC leaving the city, or going under, mean that the city would be better or worse off overall?

You can dance around those issues as much as you like to try to defend the council's actions, but the answers to those questions are absolutely obvious. SISU might have run the club into the ground, but it's the council and Higgs who have made the irreversible decision to shut the door to the Ricoh.

*And the four year rent was a contractual obligation to CCFC, so let's not pretend there have been any favours to the club there.

Considering I used to give you the "dongonzalos" treatment on here I have to say that's a brilliant post.

No one is addressing the issue that ACL was clearly screwed as as a business and would end up defaulting on a loan which was lent by their key shareholder. The Lucas face washing diatribe tells us all we need to know. Without the club paying £1.3 million plus costs a year (they paid extra to even train on the pitch) the whole management company was a loss making carbuncle.

We paid more rent in 5 seasons than wasps for 250 years.

Still the council cronies can't offer any critisiscm.

 

[Rusty Trombone]

Big companies certainly give offers all of the time. But do really think this is an offer in that sense, or is it because they actually can't sell enough tickets and it's a little embarassing to have a half-empty (or worse) stadium for something that was supposed to be a big draw. Again, do you think it's sustainable to do this long term?

The milion pound write off was here...

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/ricoh-arena-takeover-bid-rugby-7873182

Although in fairness later articles cast doubt on it. I'll accept that. It will come out eventually, so the council hiding behind NDAs is pathetic, unless of course they're a bit worried or ashamed about what they've done.

As for the lies, that's obvious, no links needed. At a number of points ACL was described by the council as profitable and sustainable with or without CCFC. And then suddenly, it wasn't, it was just 'washing it's face'. One of those, by definition, has to be untrue.

And then of course there's the rebuilding trust quote - are you telling me that wasn't said at exactly the same time that CCC were in negotiation with Wasps? Another lie.

And people are defending those lies here. Right here. FFS, as long as SISU lose it seems there are plenty here who can let anything go by the council.

So, three straight questions.

Are CCFC more or less likely to move now that ACL has been sold to Wasps?

Are CCFC more or less likely to be able to get hold of the Ricoh income streams now that ACL has been sold to Wasps?

Would CCFC leaving the city, or going under, mean that the city would be better or worse off overall?

You can dance around those issues as much as you like to try to defend the council's actions, but the answers to those questions are absolutely obvious. SISU might have run the club into the ground, but it's the council and Higgs who have made the irreversible decision to shut the door to the Ricoh.

*And the four year rent was a contractual obligation to CCFC, so let's not pretend there have been any favours to the club there.

No more or less likely to move, the club say they want to move, financially it makes no sense.

Income streams, as likely as when they had many years to make offers for buying them, do they want to buy them now? It would seem odd if they want to move.

CCFC would mean the City would be worse off, obviously.

So, no dancing around any issues, as you say, all obvious answers.

the door to the Ricoh management company was open, offers were invited, looks like only one came in.

 

[Sick Boy]

While it's desperately sad that the football club has lost its option on the stadium, at least the immoral hedge fund won't be getting their filthy hands on it.

The city has also gained a premiership rugby team.

Relegation to league one
Taking the club out of the city
Alienating the fans...
We can now add losing the option on the Ricoh to SISU's list of fine moments.

How can anyone muster anything but pure hatred for these people and what they've done to our football club? Historical decline isn't an excuse - look at what Southampton have achieved since they turned SISU down.

Now SISU, either build your fantasy stadium or f*ck off. Preferably the latter.

I'll be waiting in the wings with my money until CCFC has respectable owners. I just pray that it still exists.

Fuck off you hypocritical c**t.

 

[Grendel]

No more or less likely to move, the club say they want to move, financially it makes no sense.

Income streams, as likely as when they had many years to make offers for buying them, do they want to buy them now? It would seem odd if they want to move.

CCFC would mean the City would be worse off, obviously.

So, no dancing around any issues, as you say, all obvious answers.

the door to the Ricoh management company was open, offers were invited, looks like only one came in.

Give up he is already 10 - 0 ahead

 

[Rusty Trombone]

Give up he is already 10 - 0 ahead

You used to be able to debate a topic, where did it all go wrong for you?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Considering I used to give you the "dongonzalos" treatment on here I have to say that's a brilliant post.

No one is addressing the issue that ACL was clearly screwed as as a business and would end up defaulting on a loan which was lent by their key shareholder. The Lucas face washing diatribe tells us all we need to know. Without the club paying £1.3 million plus costs a year (they paid extra to even train on the pitch) the whole management company was a loss making carbuncle.

We paid more rent in 5 seasons than wasps for 250 years.

Still the council cronies can't offer any critisiscm.

One must only look at how many youth/reserve/ladies games have been pencilled in at the Ricoh to see how desperate they had become. The reality is that the council is losing money hand over fist and needed the cash as soon as possible, whereas the Higgs needed the money freeing up for their other projects. The latter have been pretty honest in giving their reasons for the sale, why can't the council?

 

[Glen]

Sisu will wind us up first before they leave the useless c*nts

 

[Skyblueweeman]

It will be instructive to see the accounts.. due in about 4 months.

But available in about 16...