Back to being the biggest club in Coventry? (45 Viewers)

[skybluetony176]

Do you actually read posts before you reply to them or do you genuinely struggle to understand their meaning?

What's up. Is your little monkey boy not allowed to reply for himself today?

 

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[Deleted member 5849]

Why on earth would someone who owns a stadium in Coventry move a football team from Coventry away from Coventry and rebrand?

Because it turns out to be more profitable to go elsewhere.

 

[Nick]

What's up. Is your little monkey boy not allowed to reply for himself today?

Who do you mean by monkey boy? As it is about my post I assume you mean me, in which I case I replied above which you skipped.

 

[skybluetony176]

Because it turns out to be more profitable to go elsewhere.

OK, I'll play along

So, already owning a 250year lease on the Ricoh, the management company, Wasps RFC and now CCFC despite the Ricoh already having an established income through sporting clubs, a hotel, a casino an exhibition hall etc. They're going to up sticks and presumably move both clubs to a different location because it could be more profitable. Which location did you have in mind? Presumably it's an already established venue or are the building a new? What do they do with the Ricoh? Having lost both anchor tennants the bowl is now worthless and with the bowl now empty this will have a knock on effect to the other tenants and the value of the whole site plummets. Is the sale of what's left of the Ricoh going to cover their initial investment even?

 

[skybluetony176]

Who do you mean by monkey boy? As it is about my post I assume you mean me, in which I case I replied above which you skipped.

I was talking about Sickboy. I'd never call you his monkey boy anyway. We all know you're his lapdog

 

[SkyBlueZack]

Lets hope so

Have you bought bonds? Must be a reason why you want them to succeed so much? They bring zero benefit to the football club which I believed was your first team? Or have you been that impressed with them you have made them first choice. Or is this where you tell me we need to move on? I may consider it if the full details from all sides ever come out in the public, still won't forgive the council though.

 

[Nick]

Have you bought bonds? Must be a reason why you want them to succeed so much? They bring zero benefit to the football club which I believed was your first team? Or have you been that impressed with them you have made them first choice. Or is this where you tell me we need to move on? I may consider it if the full details from all sides ever come out in the public, still won't forgive the council though.

If they succeed at the Ricoh he will earn more compared to if Wasps moved away / went bust. That is one factor.

 

[chiefdave]

So, already owning a 250year lease on the Ricoh, the management company, Wasps RFC and now CCFC despite the Ricoh already having an established income through sporting clubs, a hotel, a casino an exhibition hall etc. They're going to up sticks and presumably move both clubs to a different location because it could be more profitable. Which location did you have in mind? Presumably it's an already established venue or are the building a new? What do they do with the Ricoh? Having lost both anchor tennants the bowl is now worthless and with the bowl now empty this will have a knock on effect to the other tenants and the value of the whole site plummets. Is the sale of what's left of the Ricoh going to cover their initial investment even?

Thing is Tony you're making an assumption it would be better for them to stay, its impossible to know for sure. Given that they quite happily moved Wasps 90 miles and admitted it was purely for financial gain it would be foolish to think if a situation arose which would be of financial benefit to them they wouldn't take advantage of it.

Sure it may be an unlikely scenario but so was us playing in Northampton, so was a London rugby club buying the Ricoh and moving halfway across the country.

 

[skybluetony176]

Thing is Tony you're making an assumption it would be better for them to stay, its impossible to know for sure. Given that they quite happily moved Wasps 90 miles and admitted it was purely for financial gain it would be foolish to think if a situation arose which would be of financial benefit to them they wouldn't take advantage of it.

Sure it may be an unlikely scenario but so was us playing in Northampton, so was a London rugby club buying the Ricoh and moving halfway across the country.

It's nonsense Dave. Wasps aren't nearly in the same situation as they were before they moved here. Everything they were trying to achieve (and more probably) they achieved by taking control of ACL. Where else in the country is there a stadium of similar capacity with all the extra facilities that the Ricoh has and more that is sitting empty? Answer: There isn't and nor is there ever likely to be. They're not moving again and in the unlikely event that they gain control of CCFC neither would we. There's only one hedge fund owner with an appetite and motivation for moving CCFC and it's not Wasps hedge fund it's ours.

Also lots of us predicted another sports team coming in for the Ricoh, one or two people even mentioned Wasps and got laughed at by the "more intellectual crowd" on here for suggesting it, the same crowd who also "knew" that Wasps bonds were going to fail, the bonds that had to close early as they were over subscribed, some of this crowd even predicted smoking guns and then claimed parties lost court cases on purpose. So you'll forgive me if I take anything that members of this crowd takes as possibilities and laugh out loud at it as nonsensical scaremongering.

 

[Grendel]

It's nonsense Dave. Wasps aren't nearly in the same situation as they were before they moved here. Everything they were trying to achieve (and more probably) they achieved by taking control of ACL. Where else in the country is there a stadium of similar capacity with all the extra facilities that the Ricoh has and more that is sitting empty? Answer: There isn't and nor is there ever likely to be. They're not moving again and in the unlikely event that they gain control of CCFC neither would we. There's only one hedge fund owner with an appetite and motivation for moving CCFC and it's not Wasps hedge fund it's ours.

Also lots of us predicted another sports team coming in for the Ricoh, one or two people even mentioned Wasps and got laughed at by the "more intellectual crowd" on here for suggesting it, the same crowd who also "knew" that Wasps bonds were going to fail, the bonds that had to close early as they were over subscribed, some of this crowd even predicted smoking guns and then claimed parties lost court cases on purpose. So you'll forgive me if I take anything that members of this crowd takes as possibilities and laugh out loud at it as nonsensical scaremongering.

How much profit is being made then - can't say I know

Also don't know who purchased the bonds and how the payments are to be made - do you?

Know one thing though Wasps are staying in London or were according to their owner two years ago;

"We are currently looking at sites and co-ownership options. Ideally we believe that West London is a natural future home for London Wasps" - ah well pehaps thats stage two in the plan.

Doesn't seem you are having a good day - take a lie down - you've earned it.

 

[chiefdave]

It's nonsense Dave.

You might think it's nonsense, I might agree with you and so might everyone on here however you have absolutly no way of knowing what situation Wasps will be in 5, 10 or 50 years down the line.

Things change. Wasps have shown they have no issue with moving around the country if it is believed to be of benefit to them.

 

[Grendel]

You might think it's nonsense, I might agree with you and so might everyone on here however you have absolutly no way of knowing what situation Wasps will be in 5, 10 or 50 years down the line.

Things change. Wasps have shown they have no issue with moving around the country if it is believed to be of benefit to them.

Indeed - when they committed to the London area any talk of moving outside would equally have been dismissed as nonsense - and yet Mr Richardson was already, according to some, having discussions about purchasing the Arena

 

[Sick Boy]

What's up. Is your little monkey boy not allowed to reply for himself today?

Once again you expose yourself as being unable to debate without resorting to cheap personal abuse. Pathetic.

Coming from an Irish Catholic family, a more sensitive soul could find elements of racism/ethnic slurs in your post as well.

 

[lordsummerisle]

I
Also lots of us predicted another sports team coming in for the Ricoh, one or two people even mentioned Wasps and got laughed at by the "more intellectual crowd" on here for suggesting it, the same crowd who also "knew" that Wasps bonds were going to fail, the bonds that had to close early as they were over subscribed, some of this crowd even predicted smoking guns and then claimed parties lost court cases on purpose. So you'll forgive me if I take anything that members of this crowd takes as possibilities and laugh out loud at it as nonsensical scaremongering.

The bonds were sold successfully, but whilst they have been a success personally for Richardson(who took a huge lump of cash from the £35million raised), the true measure of the success or otherwise of the Bond Issue will be when they have to pay the interest payments and eventually the capital.

 

[skybluetony176]

You might think it's nonsense, I might agree with you and so might everyone on here however you have absolutly no way of knowing what situation Wasps will be in 5, 10 or 50 years down the line.

Things change. Wasps have shown they have no issue with moving around the country if it is believed to be of benefit to them.

It would still need to be a better option in terms of potential return annd also be available though wouldn't it Dave? Where is this better option that is sitting empty and available? There isn't one is there?

 

[skybluetony176]

How much profit is being made then - can't say I know

Also don't know who purchased the bonds and how the payments are to be made - do you?

Know one thing though Wasps are staying in London or were according to their owner two years ago;

"We are currently looking at sites and co-ownership options. Ideally we believe that West London is a natural future home for London Wasps" - ah well pehaps thats stage two in the plan.

Doesn't seem you are having a good day - take a lie down - you've earned it.

Keep clutching, there must be one straw still left.

You and others were talking specifically about the up take of the bonds and you couldn't have been more wrong. You'll never admit it and divert where you can but that's the truth. You've been wrong at pretty much every stage with your predictions of what will or wont happen next and at each stage of this sorry mess you're adamant that you know best and everyone else who say's "what about this or that" as a possibility you've shouted them down with your minions demanding to see links etc. of how they can say that even though they're only making a suggestion not a statement.

And as for this notion that Wasps will move us if they ever took us over is the biggest load of clap trap yet. A) it's highly unlikely that it will ever happen in the first place give the financial hole we're in and B) THEY ALREADY OWN A STADIUM!

 

[skybluetony176]

The bonds were sold successfully, but whilst they have been a success personally for Richardson(who took a huge lump of cash from the £35million raised), the true measure of the success or otherwise of the Bond Issue will be when they have to pay the interest payments and eventually the capital.

That I'm not disputing. Posters (who think they're smarter than anyone else) were saying the take up would be a failure because of X,Y & Z, basically they in their infinate wisdom were saying the maths don't add up. I'm just pointing out that they were wrong. Given that it was over supscribed and shut early you'd think that no one would dispute that. But apparently not. Not aimed at you my Lord.

 

[skybluetony176]

Once again you expose yourself as being unable to debate without resorting to cheap personal abuse. Pathetic.

Coming from an Irish Catholic family, a more sensitive soul could find elements of racism/ethnic slurs in your post as well.

Really? I've made my point. If you want to debate it start debating it.

What has calling you a Monkey boy got to do with you being from an Irish Catholic family?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Which location did you have in mind?

Belfast and Glasgow are the obvious ones.

If franchising is the precedent, this is what happens. You can just sneer and say it won't, but the evidence is that once teams move and franchising is accepted, they become less tied to place.

Ignore that, say it'll never happen, and you repeat the mistakes that said SISU were fine, who cares we're owned by profit oriented investment funds with a reputation for ruthlessness.

 

[Nick]

That I'm not disputing. Posters (who think they're smarter than anyone else) were saying the take up would be a failure because of X,Y & Z, basically they in their infinate wisdom were saying the maths don't add up. I'm just pointing out that they were wrong. Given that it was over supscribed and shut early you'd think that no one would dispute that. But apparently not. Not aimed at you my Lord.

Weren't people saying the maths didn't add up for what they paid and what they valued it for?

ie either their valuation was wrong or the council sold it too cheap by a few mill?

 

[chiefdave]

It would still need to be a better option in terms of potential return annd also be available though wouldn't it Dave? Where is this better option that is sitting empty and available? There isn't one is there?

I don't know if there is or isn't one right now. It seems Wasps had other options which would have allowed them to stay in their area so clearly aren't bothered about the fans or how long they have been established in an area if there is financial reward for them, or for the owner personally, by moving.

What you can't possibly guarantee, because nobody can, is that in the next 5, 10, 25, 50 or even 250 years a better option for Wasps won't present itself and they will move again.

All sorts of things could happen.

One of the London teams, football or rugby, might build a new stadium and then go out of business. There might be a rugby equivalent of St Georges Park built near London and offered to Wasps.

Remember 20 years ago rugby union wasn't even a professional sport. 15 years ago the rugby premiership doesn't exist. To state that there is no chance of major changes to the game over the 250 year term of Wasps lease is absolute lunacy. There will be changes and it is impossible to tell what the impact of those changes will be.

Wonder what the response would be on here if Joy moved us 85 miles and then mortgaged our newly purchased ground for multiple times what we paid for it so she could pay herself back millions. Not sure people would be applauding what a good businessperson she is.

 

[Nick]

Wonder what the response would be on here if Joy moved us 85 miles and then mortgaged our newly purchased ground for multiple times what we paid for it so she could pay herself back millions. Not sure people would be applauding what a good businessperson she is.

Wasn't there a template knocking about with letters to MPs begging not to sell to SISU so one of the city's assets wouldn't be loaded up with debt or something?

 

[italiahorse]

Have you bought bonds? Must be a reason why you want them to succeed so much? They bring zero benefit to the football club which I believed was your first team? Or have you been that impressed with them you have made them first choice. Or is this where you tell me we need to move on? I may consider it if the full details from all sides ever come out in the public, still won't forgive the council though.

Depends whether you think the football club could run ACL or not. I don't think they can from league 1.
You could say that the club have also said this if you believe TF and read the JR findings.
If such then CCC would have had no choice but to sell to Wasps as waiting would see ACL go into administration with the implications for all the Ricoh occupants and jobs.

Currently CCFC have a good deal at the Ricoh considering its debt and inability to afford a new stadium.
The unknown is what happens at renewal of the CCFC deal and how Wasps will react to a possible JR2 where their deal with CCC will be challenged.

 

[chiefdave]

Weren't people saying the maths didn't add up for what they paid and what they valued it for?

ie either their valuation was wrong or the council sold it too cheap by a few mill?

Exactly, they purchased for under £6m then straight away had it valued at £48.5m in their prospectus. Either it was sold massively under value or the figure in the prospectus was greatly inflated.

Love this bit of the prospectus:

If any of the assumptions on which the valuation of the Arena prepared by Strutt & Parker LLP prove incorrect then the value of the Arena may be substantially lower than the valuation provided by Strutt & Parker LLP.

 

[SkyBlueZack]

So do you own any of the bonds? Or is ignoring the question answering it in itself? You wouldn't be embarrassed to say you do would you? CCFC ran ACL since it opened. Let's not forget without the extortionate rent, ACL would never have made a profit. Let's not forget without CCFC, Ricoh would never have sponsored the stadium, same applies to pitchside advertising. Would a casino position themselves in a stadium without a football club? Football is bigger than rugby in all aspects, that we can all agree on is a fact. Therefore the potential of CCFC owning and running the stadium is far greater than an out of town rugby club in the Aviva Premiership or not. CCFC debt, is this the same debt people claim to not be exactly correct in terms of historical debt prior to their takeover? I'm sure OSB has indicated this several times, apologies if incorrect. CCFC couldn't afford a new stadium but neither could Wasps clearly as they took ours! The deal should be challenged. Ann Lucas was highlighted for not releasing full details of the meeting about joining Birmingham. The situation is similar would you not agree? People don't know the full details and she blindly refuses to release the details.

Picture this. Northampton didn't happen. SISU took over this year installing Mowbray in charge and going about sorting the club from top to bottom. This included looking at the rent. The council despite benefiting from having a successful local football team were reluctant to sell the stadium but would consider an extortionate price similar to the rent. SISU wanting the club to grow and prosper, primarily to boost their investment and make more money, were not happy with this. They move the club to Northampton. Who would people blame then? In my opinion people's anger at SISU's previous years of mis-management have clouded their judgement on this issue. The whole thing is a sorry mess and should not have ever happened, it began with Richardson, ended with the council with SISU in the middle.

For this reason the deal needs to be challenged, what would people think if the council were found guilty of not ensuring a fair open transparent deal which maximized the return to the taxpayer? If SISU win, it will be for two reasons. A they are a hedge fund and drive to get a return on any investment. B because the council were so blinded with hatred for SISU they forgot to follow procedure and sold out their local football team. Time will tell.

 

[wingy]

Once again you expose yourself as being unable to debate without resorting to cheap personal abuse. Pathetic.

Coming from an Irish Catholic family, a more sensitive soul could find elements of racism/ethnic slurs in your post as well.

They were Yids yesterday?:-/

 

[Sick Boy]

They were Yids yesterday?:-/

A lot of Irish football fans support English teams & Spurs fans refer to themselves as Yids, don't worry.

 

[italiahorse]

So do you own any of the bonds? Or is ignoring the question answering it in itself? You wouldn't be embarrassed to say you do would you? CCFC ran ACL since it opened. Let's not forget without the extortionate rent, ACL would never have made a profit. Let's not forget without CCFC, Ricoh would never have sponsored the stadium, same applies to pitchside advertising. Would a casino position themselves in a stadium without a football club? Football is bigger than rugby in all aspects, that we can all agree on is a fact. Therefore the potential of CCFC owning and running the stadium is far greater than an out of town rugby club in the Aviva Premiership or not. CCFC debt, is this the same debt people claim to not be exactly correct in terms of historical debt prior to their takeover? I'm sure OSB has indicated this several times, apologies if incorrect. CCFC couldn't afford a new stadium but neither could Wasps clearly as they took ours! The deal should be challenged. Ann Lucas was highlighted for not releasing full details of the meeting about joining Birmingham. The situation is similar would you not agree? People don't know the full details and she blindly refuses to release the details.

Picture this. Northampton didn't happen. SISU took over this year installing Mowbray in charge and going about sorting the club from top to bottom. This included looking at the rent. The council despite benefiting from having a successful local football team were reluctant to sell the stadium but would consider an extortionate price similar to the rent. SISU wanting the club to grow and prosper, primarily to boost their investment and make more money, were not happy with this. They move the club to Northampton. Who would people blame then? In my opinion people's anger at SISU's previous years of mis-management have clouded their judgement on this issue. The whole thing is a sorry mess and should not have ever happened, it began with Richardson, ended with the council with SISU in the middle.

For this reason the deal needs to be challenged, what would people think if the council were found guilty of not ensuring a fair open transparent deal which maximized the return to the taxpayer? If SISU win, it will be for two reasons. A they are a hedge fund and drive to get a return on any investment. B because the council were so blinded with hatred for SISU they forgot to follow procedure and sold out their local football team. Time will tell.

I have no bonds.
You need to read the JR findings to understand how Sisu had many opportunities to buy the Ricoh and what there game plan was.
Understand the bit about pre Sisu setting the seeds but can't see how the council had much choice on selling to Wasps.
IMHO

 

[SkyBlueZack]

Did the judge not say there wasn't an appetite on either side to complete a deal? Or do you know something the judge didn't?

 

[SkyBlueZack]

Did sisu not offer 2 million pounds for the higgs share but were advised this was not acceptable? Remind me again how much wasps paid for the higgs share?

 

[Sick Boy]

Sadly many posters are happy to defend a London rugby franchise in the city as it is a stick to beat ccfcs owners with.

 

[italiahorse]

Did sisu not offer 2 million pounds for the higgs share but were advised this was not acceptable? Remind me again how much wasps paid for the higgs share?

The stadium with a team in is worth a lot more money. As Wasps knew.
I suspect Sisu thought they were the only team that could use the arena and could get it down to zero. Perhaps even the freehold with a few years in Northampton. Like about 6 on here?

 

[stupot07]

The stadium with a team in is worth a lot more money. As Wasps knew.
I suspect Sisu thought they were the only team that could use the arena and could get it down to zero. Perhaps even the freehold with a few years in Northampton. Like about 6 on here?

Or the 6 in your head?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

 

[italiahorse]

Sadly many posters are happy to defend a London rugby franchise in the city as it is a stick to beat ccfcs owners with.

Who is defending them?
You are getting confused with understanding we can't do anything about it and just getting on with it.

 

[Sick Boy]

Luckily not everyone has the backbone of a jelly fish like you. Imagine if everyone had your attitude, the world would be horrendous.