fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
The world would never have got out of any restrictions had it not been for vaccines.
The world would never have got out of any restrictions had it not been for vaccines.The world is slowly slipping back into restrictions, how is that a total success? Please answer. If people were quoting vaccination rates before they started the roll out and said we would be going back into lockdowns etc, people wouldn´t see that as a full solution.
Then again, I am trying to have a conversation with some people that think vaccines should be mandatory. Not sure how anyone with that viewpoint can try and act morally superior, and the attempts are pretty laughable.
I am pro vax but also very respectful of the decades of historical epidemiology research that shows natural immunity is not an insignificant method of protection.
I totally understand governments have to operate at the population level and appreciate that any wavering messaging on this topic would prevent people getting vaccinated and could lead to many immune systems succumbing rather than gaining immunity. Going back to @Brighton Sky Blue question to @Earlsdon_Skyblue1 ...in my view, the way out of this pandemic (assuming this virus shares the epidemiological characteristics of historical viruses) is for us to heavily protect (vaccinate) as many high risk groups as we can, maybe with a 4th booster and then allow what appears to be a milder virus (omicron) to spread so the vaccinated or previously infected, fit and well majority can gain a population level of herd immunity which will in turn support the vaccinated at risk groups.
Hearing the government pre brief it seems they may confirm this week that omicron is not as bad as feared and I live in optimistic hope it is the beginning of journey towards the end of this pandemic.
If this virus is so clever that it mutates in ways that we have not seen before then annual vaccines is all we have and life as we have known it will be plagued by this for long time to come.
I can only assume you and those that liked your post are anti Vaccine or doubt it's efficiency? I did NOT suggest we let anything rip and the initial gov response was horrendously misguided. I clearly said give the fit and well vaccines (unlike Brazil etc.) Before allowing it to spread amongst the protected (vaccinated) fit and well and NOT those at high risk. Based on your logic I can only assume you don't think the 2/3 does of the vaccines are effective at protecting even healthy citizen's?'Natural immunity', i.e. 'let it rip', in a disease that can kill, hospitalise, or cause long term health issues, is a poor strategy. We demonstrated that in the first wave (see also the number of deaths in the US and Brazil that went for this approach).
Again, there's no reliable evidence yet that Omicron is significantly milder, hence countries all over the world taking vigorous precautions. And even if it is much less virulent then the problem is still the sheer rate of infection and the very big numbers that will all be ill at around the same time.
Immunity (or at least significantly less infection and transmission) through vaccination is what most are aiming for, and it's obviously far more humane. But to get there we're going to have to get a much bigger uptake.
it doesn’t say what proportion of people in ICU have been vaccinated, or what proportion of deaths are vaccinated either.Sorry Grendel I don't think all is as it seems with regards to hospitalization numbers. It's clear beyond rational minded doubt that unvaccinated people are disproportionately in hospital given the Vax rate is 85% vs 15% but the majority in hospital are not unvaccinated as many try to claim. For balance here is a link from the full fact website you may wish to review
Most people admitted to hospital with Covid-19 are vaccinated - Full Fact
The vaccines are not perfect, and the vast majority of vulnerable people have been vaccinated, so the small proportion who get seriously ill still amount to a lot of people.fullfact.org
In fairness I saw that article link in the FT and only shared it as @Grendel was inferring it was the unvaccinated tail wagging the vaccinated dog. Which based on hospitalization rates alone does not appear to be the case anymore (despite that being the prevailing view). I agree it would be interesting to see those stats broken down further as details matter.it doesn’t say what proportion of people in ICU have been vaccinated, or what proportion of deaths are vaccinated either.
In fairness I saw that article link in the FT and only shared it as @Grendel was inferring it was the unvaccinated tail wagging the vaccinated dog. Which based on hospitalization rates alone does not appear to be the case anymore (despite that being the prevailing view). I agree it would be interesting to see those stats broken down further as details matter.
Covid aside I am frustrated for everyone. We in the middle of a really concerning pandemic and at a time we need clear, coherent and honest leadership, more than a few of our cabinet repersentives are brazenly down camera lying on an almost daily basis.
I have no reason to doubt your stats and i would agree they are disproportionately not helping esp. when you consider the 85% vs 15% Anyone who has not had the virus or been vaccinated (i.e. has antibodies and hopefully enduring Tcell protection) at this point should probably consider their options.36% of hospitalisation patients have had no vaccine at all and the last stats issued on ICU patients said 70% were not vaccinated but they have not been updated for a while. So it’s significant especially as many would be in age ranges where vaccines would be effective to prevent hospitalisation.
Whatever anyone thinks of the cabinet the fact is a lot more people would ignore any ban on mixing at Christmas this year than was the case last yearIn fairness I saw that article link in the FT and only shared it as @Grendel was inferring it was the unvaccinated tail wagging the vaccinated dog. Which based on hospitalization rates alone does not appear to be the case anymore (despite that being the prevailing view). I agree it would be interesting to see those stats broken down further as details matter.
Covid aside I am frustrated for everyone. We in the middle of a really concerning pandemic and at a time we need clear, coherent and honest leadership, more than a few of our cabinet repersentives are brazenly down camera lying on an almost daily basis.
In fairness I saw that article link in the FT and only shared it as @Grendel was inferring it was the unvaccinated tail wagging the vaccinated dog. Which based on hospitalization rates alone does not appear to be the case anymore (despite that being the prevailing view). I agree it would be interesting to see those stats broken down further as details matter.
Covid aside I am frustrated for everyone. We in the middle of a really concerning pandemic and at a time we need clear, coherent and honest leadership, more than a few of our cabinet repersentives are brazenly down camera lying on an almost daily basis.
'Natural immunity', i.e. 'let it rip', in a disease that can kill, hospitalise, or cause long term health issues, is a poor strategy. We demonstrated that in the first wave (see also the number of deaths in the US and Brazil that went for this approach).
Again, there's no reliable evidence yet that Omicron is significantly milder, hence countries all over the world taking vigorous precautions. And even if it is much less virulent then the problem is still the sheer rate of infection and the very big numbers that will all be ill at around the same time.
Immunity (or at least significantly less infection and transmission) through vaccination is what most are aiming for, and it's obviously far more humane. But to get there we're going to have to get a much bigger uptake.
Against me? I am not trying to make the case for the unvaccinated at all if you read my posts.
Not quite that binary, I think everyone without protecting Tcell s and neutralizing antibodies should be 100%. As decades of epidemiology research has shown there is more than one way to acquire that immunity. Vaccination is clearly the safest way and should be the default.So you believe everyone should be vaccinated?
No, you are deflecting knowing full well that no one really has the solution to the pandemic. You don´t want to admit that the vaccine has been underwhelming which is why you keep answering my questions with questions.
Given we now know around 85% in ICU are not vaccinated the underwhelming comment should be withdrawn
Given we now know around 85% in ICU are not vaccinated the underwhelming comment should be withdrawn
‘Sounds like you’re just picking and choosing’
You both really think if everyone one of those were vaccinated that this goes away? Got some sad news for you guys... Restrictions are still in place in countries with full vaccination, so my comment on being underwhelming is valid. It isn´t the end of the pandemic.
´Picking and choosing´ was a direct response to someone saying that only the UK with a lower vaccination rate was having games called off. I pointed out that it was happening in Italy and Spain (which allegedly has 98% vaccination). Responding with the bundesliga (which doesnt have fans allowed in anyway) is a silly take.
Which countries are these?
The highest I’m aware of is Chile which is just over 50% boosted.
Udinese v Salernitana is postponed tonight. Serie A players allegedly have a 98% vaccination rate and people were chirping up about it earlier in the thread. How does being fully vaccinated correlate to a normal life here?
Everyone being vaccinated is a red herring and it is never going to end with the current model.
Let’s suppose nobody gets vaccinated. For the umpteenth time, how do you want it done differently?
When you assume everyone that doesn´t have the same opinion as you is an anti-vaxxer, you start getting sloppy and making bizarre statements. I am not saying the vaccine isn´t useful, and I am not saying it doesn´t help. I am saying that where we are at the moment, it is not doing enough for us to end this pandemic.
A Serie A game was called off today, and everyone was shouting that it wasn´t happening there because they had a 98% vaccination rate. They have all gone very quiet about it, and your inability to answer it also says a lot.
You’ve been making straw man arguments like that from the off. All that’s been asked of you is name your alternative-which you still refuse to do.
Your complete misunderstanding of the point of vaccines is pretty astounding.I made the comment that the vaccine is not the total solution and is a bit underwhelming. I have repeatedly said I do not have another solution and no one else does either. That is not the point here. The point is that you are getting all touchy about anyone who says anything negative about the vaccine and you have totally zero counter arguments to try and debate what I am saying. As a result you are huffing and puffing.
Serie A has a 98% vaccination rate. Games are still being called off. How on earth does that constitute anything other than underwhelming from the point of view of the vaccine´s success?
I made the comment that the vaccine is not the total solution and is a bit underwhelming. I have repeatedly said I do not have another solution and no one else does either. That is not the point here. The point is that you are getting all touchy about anyone who says anything negative about the vaccine and you have totally zero counter arguments to try and debate what I am saying. As a result you are huffing and puffing.
Serie A has a 98% vaccination rate. Games are still being called off. How on earth does that constitute anything other than underwhelming from the point of view of the vaccine´s success?
Your complete misunderstanding of the point of vaccines is pretty astounding.
The graphs that have been posted previously show that the vaccines are anything but underwhelming.
You can still catch virus' even if you've been vaccinated, therefore even with 100% vaccination you'd still probably get the odd football match called off. The risk to those players and their families however will have been greatly diminished thanks to being vaccinated.
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The vaccine’s success is measured by how many lives they save, not how many football matches they keep going. Many millions, by now likely tens of millions, of lives have been saved thanks to pioneering science developed in record time.
What’s underwhelming has been the world’s ability to ensure everyone who wants or needs it can get it.
You're saying the vaccine is underwhelming because football is being cancelled. You're missing the point of a vaccine.Please explain how I am missing the point of the vaccine. I think if anything you have shown your own lack of understanding by being unable to digest my point and counter it effectively. It is just more empty words really, which are not relevant at all to what I have been saying.
Seems it wasn't actually postponed. Salernitana just decided they weren't playing and didn't turn up but the league never agreed to a postponement.Udinese v Salernitana is postponed tonight.
Seems it wasn't actually postponed. Salernitana just decided they weren't playing and didn't turn up but the league never agreed to a postponement.
Udinese named their side and the officials waited 45 minutes for Salernitana to turn up before abandoning the game.
You're saying the vaccine is underwhelming because football is being cancelled. You're missing the point of a vaccine.
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It isn´t just going to be one football match though is it? Christmas is cancelled here, and I expect the UK will go a similar way with restrictions in the coming weeks.
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