Actual Nazis in America (3 Viewers)

Grendel · Aug 28, 2017

chiefdave said:
Are you saying you don't believe there should have been a referendum at all and therefore the result should be ignored?

Nope. There was a referendum to decide if we wanted to leave as one party offered ot in its manifesto. That party won the election. The referendum was clear in or out and then parliament will negotiate terms. It's very, very clear. There was never in the small print talk of a second referendum on terms.

There have been a handful of referendum in the country and there has never been two on the same issue. The referendum decides direction the elected government deals with the strategy.

Grendel · Aug 28, 2017

Funnily enough Ive tried to find the abbot racist gaffe regarding nurses and it's on Wiki.

It's comedy genius. Abbot was in a local hospital and they'd employed nurses from Finland. She said that "blond haired blue eyed (racial stereotyping)" nurses couldn't possibly know how to care for the black community. The racial alliance leader complained about Abbots comments and pointed out that the current Miss Finland was black. I think even he was of Finnish descent and black.

Bernie Grant even claimed white nurses couldn't take a black persons temperature. They wouldn't know how.

Nothing racist there.

Islam versus Europe: Diane Abbott's Finnish Nurses Controversy Revisited

clint van damme · Aug 29, 2017

Captain Dart said:
That was a different incident. Still nastiness on both sides there, but the Antifa are far more aggressive even though they were provoked.

armed with clubs and didn't kill anyone yet you say worse than the white supremacists armed with guns who did kill someone -ok then.

chiefdave · Aug 29, 2017

Grendel said:
The referendum decides direction the elected government deals with the strategy.

There's a major problem with that, besides the current governments total incompetence. Should the deal negotiated be poor and parliament therefore reject it do you believe that would be generally accepted by the electorate?

chiefdave · Aug 29, 2017

Grendel said:
Islam versus Europe: Diane Abbott's Finnish Nurses Controversy Revisited

I'm amazed at some of the sources used on here to prove things. We've had Alex Jones and Breitbart cited in the last few days and now a website whose headline proudly proclaims "Islam Versus Europe. Where Islam spreads freedom dies.".

chiefdave · Aug 29, 2017

Grendel said:
There have been a handful of referendum in the country and there has never been two on the same issue.

There's only been 3 UK wide referendums but you could definitely make an argument that the 75 referendum on continued membership of the EC is the same issue as the recent referendum.

And of course there's been 2 Scottish devolution and 3 Welsh devolution referendums.

chiefdave · Aug 29, 2017

clint van damme said:
armed with clubs and didn't kill anyone yet you say worse than the white supremacists armed with guns who did kill someone -ok then.

The videos supposedly showing this violence show one, presumably pro-trump protester being pushed away by some anti-trump protest signs and another shows someone being hit with the wooden pole from a sign before he is disarmed and restrained by other anti-trump protestors.

To compared that with a heavily armed milita, driving cars at people and the type of beating Deandre Harris suffered is ridiculous.

Given that the police provided a secure area for the pro-trump protestors you have to question those who were mixed in with the anti-trump protesters. You could draw the conclusion that they were there to provoke, the fact they were pepper spraying anti-trump protesters would suggest that to be the case.

martcov · Aug 29, 2017

Grendel said:
Why didnt we have s vote to join it in the first place? Perhaps we should have 10 referendums and then if it still ends up leave toss a coin?

I have a better idea. Why don't we have a parliamentary democracy... then the people's representatives could debate such things and call in experts to assess the risks against benefits... and then make a decision based on facts .. instead of, say, the opinions of postal workers in Chatham ( whose opinions were recently quoted on here as evidence of resolute support for Brexit )...

SIR ERNIE · Aug 29, 2017

chiefdave said:
How the hell is allowing the electorate to vote on something undemocratic?

Ok, I’ll spell it out for you.

Anyone with an ounce of intelligence can see through the cynical tactics of the likes of Clegg, Farron et al when they dress up a second referendum as being in the interests of democracy. It’s an arrogant attempt to manipulate the electorate.

They know full well that the EU will do everything they can to try to get the UK to remain. That’s because they desperately need our contributions.

So the announcement that there will be a second referendum on ‘the deal’ is the green light for Brussels to give us nothing, knowing that the bad deal will be rejected by the electorate and the UK remains.

So to answer your question, allowing the electorate to vote is of course the definition of democracy. Agreed.

However in this instance the cynical motives behind the calls for a second vote are calculated and designed to overturn the democratic will of the people expressed in June last year, simply because certain ‘Democrats’ don’t like the result. It stinks.

Ashdown · Aug 29, 2017

The Brexit talks thus far are an absolute joke, the EU representatives are doing everything to avoid the issues that need to be discussed. Why don't they actually come out and state exactly what they want ?................they won't, because there are enough self interested wet blankets in the UK desperately working to overturn the original vote. In the meantime as they all know the Pound continues to weaken, prices creep up, the older population who voted OUT start to die off etc etc and the screw turns. If it wasn't going to be implemented why have we wasted all this time fucking about and why were people even given the choice !

martcov · Aug 29, 2017

SIR ERNIE said:
Ok, I’ll spell it out for you.

Anyone with an ounce of intelligence can see through the cynical tactics of the likes of Clegg, Farron et al when they dress up a second referendum as being in the interests of democracy. It’s an arrogant attempt to manipulate the electorate.

They know full well that the EU will do everything they can to try to get the UK to remain. That’s because they desperately need our contributions.

So the announcement that there will be a second referendum on ‘the deal’ is the green light for Brussels to give us nothing, knowing that the bad deal will be rejected by the electorate and the UK remains.

So to answer your question, allowing the electorate to vote is of course the definition of democracy. Agreed.

However in this instance the cynical motives behind the calls for a second vote are calculated and designed to overturn the democratic will of the people expressed in June last year, simply because certain ‘Democrats’ don’t like the result. It stinks.

There was no comprehensive democratic will shown. The country was split almost 50:50. On the day slightly more in percentage terms voted leave, today it would be the other way round according to polls.

As a leaver you are hardly in a position to go on about manipulating voters. The leave propaganda was disgusting as was the 40 years of EU, Common Market, EEC blaming for everything- except our relative prosperity and security - that went on before.

Well enjoy the mess. You wanted it, you've got it.

The EU is not entirely dependent on our contribution.

jimmyhillsfanclub · Aug 29, 2017

Ashdown said:
The Brexit talks thus far are an absolute joke, the EU representatives are doing everything to avoid the issues that need to be discussed. Why don't they actually come out and state exactly what they want ?................they won't, because there are enough self interested wet blankets in the UK desperately working to overturn the original vote. In the meantime as they all know the Pound continues to weaken, prices creep up, the older population who voted OUT start to die off etc etc and the screw turns. If it wasn't going to be implemented why have we wasted all this time fucking about and why were people even given the choice !

I called it before the referendum vote......I predicted we'd vote to leave, but "they" wouldn't let us.....I believe I equated the EU to the Hotel California.....

"you can check out any time you like....but you can never leave"

Deleted member 5849 · Aug 29, 2017

SIR ERNIE said:
Ok, I’ll spell it out for you.

Anyone with an ounce of intelligence can see through the cynical tactics of the likes of Clegg, Farron et al when they dress up a second referendum as being in the interests of democracy. It’s an arrogant attempt to manipulate the electorate.

They know full well that the EU will do everything they can to try to get the UK to remain. That’s because they desperately need our contributions.

So the announcement that there will be a second referendum on ‘the deal’ is the green light for Brussels to give us nothing, knowing that the bad deal will be rejected by the electorate and the UK remains.

So to answer your question, allowing the electorate to vote is of course the definition of democracy. Agreed.

However in this instance the cynical motives behind the calls for a second vote are calculated and designed to overturn the democratic will of the people expressed in June last year, simply because certain ‘Democrats’ don’t like the result. It stinks.

If the electorate are that easily manipulated, we should just disregard any vote eh.

Good job not everybody thinks the electorate are as stupid as you do...

martcov · Aug 29, 2017

Ashdown said:
The Brexit talks thus far are an absolute joke, the EU representatives are doing everything to avoid the issues that need to be discussed. Why don't they actually come out and state exactly what they want ?................they won't, because there are enough self interested wet blankets in the UK desperately working to overturn the original vote. In the meantime as they all know the Pound continues to weaken, prices creep up, the older population who voted OUT start to die off etc etc and the screw turns. If it wasn't going to be implemented why have we wasted all this time fucking about and why were people even given the choice !

The EU representatives have asked the U.K. to put their proposals on the table. They have been given "constructive ambiguity" by Davis. The EU haven't made a decision to leave the U.K. or to eject the UK. The idea of Brexit comes from the UK. Good. Now go ahead and tell the EU what Brexit is. "Brexit means Brexit" sounds good to postal workers in Chatham. Please explain what that is to the EU negotiating team. They want a bit more detail than the resolute Brexiteers that have caused this problem.

Ashdown · Aug 29, 2017

The Remain campaign was equally if not more misleading and disgusting. Threats of political and financial collapse, special punishing budget measures etc. It was all voted for by racist lunatics blah blah blah ...........and all led by greedy and self interested pricks like the Blairs, the Liberals and the Osbornes of this world. The problem with your precious EU is that it was working primarily for the greater interests of Germany and France, they didn't want our input, they wanted our contribution.
All we have had from them since has been punishment { despite their ridiculous denials }, they know what they are doing , stalling and waiting for us to implode.

SIR ERNIE · Aug 29, 2017

Deleted member 5849 said:
If the electorate are that easily manipulated, we should just disregard any vote eh.

Good job not everybody thinks the electorate are as stupid as you do...

I'm just glad they're not as stupid as you obviously are.

jimmyhillsfanclub · Aug 29, 2017

martcov said:
The EU representatives have asked the U.K. to put their proposals on the table. They have been given "constructive ambiguity" by Davis. The EU haven't made a decision to leave the U.K. or to eject the UK. The idea of Brexit comes from the UK. Good. Now go ahead and tell the EU what Brexit is. "Brexit means Brexit" sounds good to postal workers in Chatham. Please explain what that is to the EU negotiating team. They want a bit more detail than the resolute Brexiteers that have caused this problem.

To be fair though Martcov, its supposed to be a negotiation......its a 2-way thing..the EU wanted detail, so the UK have since produced several proposals for debate....from the little I've read about the content, it appears to provide a reasonable framework for discussion.....but the EU just dismiss them out of hand.....

Now, I've worked in both sales & procurement in my time, & like you, I now run my own business....if I encountered such obstruction to initial discussions directly from the off, I'd suggest it was both negative, unprofessional & would certainly make me question the trustworthiness of the party involved.....

martcov · Aug 29, 2017

jimmyhillsfanclub said:
To be fair though Martcov, its supposed to be a negotiation......its a 2-way thing..the EU wanted detail, so the UK have since produced several proposals for debate....from the little I've read about the content, it appears to provide a reasonable framework for discussion.....but the EU just dismiss them out of hand.....

Now, I've worked in both sales & procurement in my time, & like you, I now run my own business....if I encountered such obstruction to initial discussions directly from the off, I'd suggest it was both negative, unprofessional & would certainly make me question the trustworthiness of the party involved.....

Exactly what the EU is saying. The question is who's idea is this? The EU isn't the one coming to us. It is our idea and our request to leave that started the process. The impetus is with us.

clint van damme · Aug 29, 2017

Ashdown said:
The Brexit talks thus far are an absolute joke, the EU representatives are doing everything to avoid the issues that need to be discussed. Why don't they actually come out and state exactly what they want ?................they won't, because there are enough self interested wet blankets in the UK desperately working to overturn the original vote. In the meantime as they all know the Pound continues to weaken, prices creep up, the older population who voted OUT start to die off etc etc and the screw turns. If it wasn't going to be implemented why have we wasted all this time fucking about and why were people even given the choice !

you're not too familiar with how negotiating works are you?

jimmyhillsfanclub · Aug 29, 2017

clint van damme said:
you're not too familiar with how negotiating works are you?

To be fair though Clint.....the EU appear to be demanding exactly that from the UK......they also seem to struggle with the concept of negotiatioin.

jimmyhillsfanclub · Aug 29, 2017

jimmyhillsfanclub said:
To be fair though Clint.....the EU appear to be demanding exactly that from the UK......they also seem to struggle with the concept of negotiatioin.

....although they can probably spell it....:banghead:

Deleted member 5849 · Aug 29, 2017

SIR ERNIE said:
I'm just glad they're not as stupid as you obviously are.

One day you'll make a vaguely positive post, instead of your distasteful insults of, well... everybody.

You, sir, are a twat.

martcov · Aug 29, 2017

Ashdown said:
The Remain campaign was equally if not more misleading and disgusting. Threats of political and financial collapse, special punishing budget measures etc. It was all voted for by racist lunatics blah blah blah ...........and all led by greedy and self interested pricks like the Blairs, the Liberals and the Osbornes of this world. The problem with your precious EU is that it was working primarily for the greater interests of Germany and France, they didn't want our input, they wanted our contribution.
All we have had from them since has been punishment { despite their ridiculous denials }, they know what they are doing , stalling and waiting for us to implode.

Well, although I don't agree with most of what you say, if I were the EU, I would stall and wait for the UK to implode. The UK is operating on at most a half hearted mandate - approximately 50% were against Brexit on the day and more are getting dissatisfied as time goes on. No one really knows what we want and how we are going to get it. Constructive ambiguity is what we have been told that we have put forward. The clock is ticking... as the EU says.

chiefdave · Aug 29, 2017

SIR ERNIE said:
Ok, I’ll spell it out for you.

This is quite possibly the biggest load of rubbish I've ever read on here which is quite some achievement.

SIR ERNIE said:
So the announcement that there will be a second referendum on ‘the deal’ is the green light for Brussels to give us nothing, knowing that the bad deal will be rejected by the electorate and the UK remains.

Which would be no different to the situation we are in now. The EU are negotiating with a UK government that can't even agree amongst themselves what they want. The EU know perfectly well the referendum was not binding so if, as you suggest, they are desperate for the UK to remain they will just offer nothing and the government will be forced to come back to the electorate with their tale between their legs admitting they couldn't get a deal done.

SIR ERNIE said:
However in this instance the cynical motives behind the calls for a second vote are calculated and designed to overturn the democratic will of the people expressed in June last year, simply because certain ‘Democrats’ don’t like the result. It stinks.

Interesting that you use the term will of the people. According to the electoral commission 51,356,768 met the requirements to vote. 17,410,742 voted leave, which is 34%, 31% voted remain. Now my maths isn't the greatest but it seems to me the biggest percentage shrugged their shoulders and couldn't be bothered. Hardly indicative of a landslide or will of the people.
And of course the failure to think through the voting process due to the arrogance of Cameron assuming it would be an easy remain win and what would constitute a winning vote being given zero thought means you have countries who have voted remain being told they have no say in the matter. What about the will of the people in Scotland or Northern Ireland?
Of course the overriding fact is that if it is the will of the people then another referendum would give the same result. Strikes me the real reason there are people who don't want it put to the electorate is that they are concerned they won't get the result they want. I certainly wouldn't vote the same way again.

Ashdown · Aug 29, 2017

.
. The EU know perfectly well the referendum was not binding so if, as you suggest, they are desperate for the UK to remain they will just offer nothing and the government will be forced to come back to the electorate with their tale between their legs admitting they couldn't get a deal done.

This is exactly what is happening and quite frankly it isn't democracy is it ? This whole mess has damaged my income more than most plus I have a property in the EU. All that said I want a stable, secure and safe environment both here in the UK and in Europe. I still blame that silly cow Merkel and her ' All pour in, everyone welcome' comments , which blatantly alarmed many people who had a good idea that this would lead to more and more terrorist strikes and fragmented communities.............they were correct !
↑

martcov · Aug 29, 2017

Ashdown said:
.
. The EU know perfectly well the referendum was not binding so if, as you suggest, they are desperate for the UK to remain they will just offer nothing and the government will be forced to come back to the electorate with their tale between their legs admitting they couldn't get a deal done.

This is exactly what is happening and quite frankly it isn't democracy is it ? This whole mess has damaged my income more than most plus I have a property in the EU. All that said I want a stable, secure and safe environment both here in the UK and in Europe. I still blame that silly cow Merkel and her ' All pour in, everyone welcome' comments , which blatantly alarmed many people who had a good idea that this would lead to more and more terrorist strikes and fragmented communities.............they were correct !
↑

No they weren't right. The terrorist strikes are not being made by the people Merkel allowed in. ISIs is being bombed to shit in Syria and Irak. They have been forced to change tactics. Nothing to do with Merkel who is not bombing anyone.

skybluetony176 · Aug 29, 2017

SIR ERNIE said:
Ok, I’ll spell it out for you.

Anyone with an ounce of intelligence can see through the cynical tactics of the likes of Clegg, Farron et al when they dress up a second referendum as being in the interests of democracy. It’s an arrogant attempt to manipulate the electorate.

They know full well that the EU will do everything they can to try to get the UK to remain. That’s because they desperately need our contributions.

So the announcement that there will be a second referendum on ‘the deal’ is the green light for Brussels to give us nothing, knowing that the bad deal will be rejected by the electorate and the UK remains.

So to answer your question, allowing the electorate to vote is of course the definition of democracy. Agreed.

However in this instance the cynical motives behind the calls for a second vote are calculated and designed to overturn the democratic will of the people expressed in June last year, simply because certain ‘Democrats’ don’t like the result. It stinks.

If, like brexiters insist, everyone knew what they were voting for then surely the result would be the same? So what's the issue with a second referendum on the terms? If the terms are rejected it doesn't mean that we're not leaving the EU it just means that the government needs to renegotiate the terms for more favourable to the UK.

Deleted member 5849 · Aug 29, 2017

skybluetony176 said:
If, like brexiters insist, everyone knew what they were voting for then surely the result would be the same? So what's the issue with a second referendum on the terms? If the terms are rejected it doesn't mean that we're not leaving the EU it just means that the government needs to renegotiate the terms for more favourable to the UK.

It's nonsense suggesting otherwise isn't it. And surely if the terms of any deal are good for the UK, many of those who voted remain would be more than happy to put their vote to endorsing those self-same terms... surely?!?

Deleted member 5849 · Aug 29, 2017

Ashdown said:
.
. The EU know perfectly well the referendum was not binding so if, as you suggest, they are desperate for the UK to remain they will just offer nothing and the government will be forced to come back to the electorate with their tale between their legs admitting they couldn't get a deal done.

This is exactly what is happening and quite frankly it isn't democracy is it ? This whole mess has damaged my income more than most plus I have a property in the EU. All that said I want a stable, secure and safe environment both here in the UK and in Europe. I still blame that silly cow Merkel and her ' All pour in, everyone welcome' comments , which blatantly alarmed many people who had a good idea that this would lead to more and more terrorist strikes and fragmented communities.............they were correct !
↑

Damn those foreigners taking housing from the natives...

skybluetony176 · Aug 29, 2017

Deleted member 5849 said:
It's nonsense suggesting otherwise isn't it. And surely if the terms of any deal are good for the UK, many of those who voted remain would be more than happy to put their vote to endorsing those self-same terms... surely?!?

Exactly. I'm not so stubborn that I wouldn't change my vote. Hell, I even voted labour in the general election this year after swearing to never do so again after Tony Blairs first term. If it's a deal that makes sense compared to staying in the EU I'd vote for it in a heartbeat.

Don't know why the Brexit camp is running scared from the notion. Then again, maybe I do.

martcov · Aug 29, 2017

skybluetony176 said:
Exactly. I'm not so stubborn that I wouldn't change my vote. Hell, I even voted labour in the general election this year after swearing to never do so again after Tony Blairs first term. If it's a deal that makes sense compared to staying in the EU I'd vote for it in a heartbeat.

Don't know why the Brexit camp is running scared from the notion. Then again, maybe I do.

All the leavers have to do at the end of negotiations is list all the improvements that the negotiations have brought us. We will all vote for Brexit. Simples.

Grendel · Aug 29, 2017

martcov said:
All the leavers have to do at the end of negotiations is list all the improvements that the negotiations have brought us. We will all vote for Brexit. Simples.

I thought you believed governments make these decisions. You hate referendums don't you?

martcov · Aug 29, 2017

Grendel said:
I thought you believed governments make these decisions. You hate referendums don't you?

We were talking about a second referendum necessitated by a first referendum. Not the best way of doing things, but the way chosen in this case.

Grendel · Aug 29, 2017

martcov said:
We were talking about a second referendum necessitated by a first referendum. Not the best way of doing things, but the way chosen in this case.

So we'd always have had to have two?

martcov · Aug 29, 2017

Grendel said:
So we'd always have had to have two?

Apparently. Remain won the first one in the 70s. Farage and co wanted the second one.

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