I was told the other day the cut off is this week, however I was also told they(sisu) can if they wish take this matter through the civil courts don’t know how long that would take bloody ages I’d expect.
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
Civil courts on what basis? Last I heard the civil courts option was only for damages if the JR found in their favour.
Razzle Dazzle Dean Gordon
Well-Known Member
I'd have to look into it to give an informed response but given that there have been fines dished out to people who were not found guilty in a criminal court I suspect SISU could take this to them regardless of the JR outcome.
HuckerbyDublinWhelan
Well-Known Member
Given Wasps current state, I’d imagine tying them up in litigation for a few more years would be the game plan. Didn’t someone say that the value of the ricoh relies on the sports teams there?
If we’re kicked out, surely it would lose value, thus making their liabilities bigger than their assets?
Not saying I want 5 more years of court battles, but maybe the end game isn’t beat them in court, just merely wait for them to fold or leave?
If we’re kicked out, surely it would lose value, thus making their liabilities bigger than their assets?
Not saying I want 5 more years of court battles, but maybe the end game isn’t beat them in court, just merely wait for them to fold or leave?
Didn't work the first time they tried it with ACL though!!
HuckerbyDublinWhelan
Well-Known Member
Not saying it’s a good idea, just wondering if that’s the plan.
The freehold is not up for sale though is it. So you’d be buying a debt ridden company (ACL) who has litigation being ran against it, with 2 sports teams teetering on the edge of oblivion. Not really attractive is it,
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. The best thing for any owners of ACL is let it go bust all contracts become broken and then you get a brand new lease from the council, as a clean slate
Someone somewhere is making a load of money from ACL still existing, it isn’t Wasps or CCFC
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
Just a couple of points
The litigation has been against CCC, with Wasps Holdings and Higgs Charity as interested parties. ACL has been "involved" in that it was the asset purchased by Wasps Holdings
ACL owns the lease valued at £60m and as such is a company you wouldnt want to go bust
ACL has a positive balance sheet of £28m. It made a loss in 2017 (after its share of the interest charges) of £509k. That loss would be mitigated by the profit / (loss) shown on its 100% subsidiaries ACL (2006) Ltd £709k and IEC Experience Ltd (£258k)loss (depending on accounting consolidation amendments). That sub group does or did all the trading other than the Rugby side of things, and doesnt appear to be making big losses
Selling ACL to a third party could free up cash flow but cost the group an annual rent. Depends if that annual rent is bigger than the interest charges each year. It also depends what you buy..... the lease or the company
The biggest loss making part of the group is the Rugby side of things.
The litigation has been against CCC, with Wasps Holdings and Higgs Charity as interested parties. ACL has been "involved" in that it was the asset purchased by Wasps Holdings
ACL owns the lease valued at £60m and as such is a company you wouldnt want to go bust
ACL has a positive balance sheet of £28m. It made a loss in 2017 (after its share of the interest charges) of £509k. That loss would be mitigated by the profit / (loss) shown on its 100% subsidiaries ACL (2006) Ltd £709k and IEC Experience Ltd (£258k)loss (depending on accounting consolidation amendments). That sub group does or did all the trading other than the Rugby side of things, and doesnt appear to be making big losses
Selling ACL to a third party could free up cash flow but cost the group an annual rent. Depends if that annual rent is bigger than the interest charges each year. It also depends what you buy..... the lease or the company
The biggest loss making part of the group is the Rugby side of things.
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fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
There is a £35m charge on ACL'S leases, which include the lease for the footbridge over the A444 and the land surrounding the Arena (I think). Interesting to see what any would be hotel developer thinks of that.
Nick
Administrator
How would it work somebody potentially buying half the lease with a charge over it? Obviously could buy half of it, bonds go to shit and they call it in and whoever bought the other half still loses out.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
That's it
HuckerbyDublinWhelan
Well-Known Member
You say ACL is worth 60m if it went bust, and the council issued a new 250 year lease, surely the value would be similar.
Isn’t ACL a tangled web of IEC, wasps holdings and Compass?
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
actually i didnt. The lease is worth £60m in the current trading set up ie as a going concern. If it all went bust then it would have no worth to Wasps because it would be Wasps going bust. The 250 years reverts to whatever is left on the original lease which would still be owned by ACL. Where that leaves the bond security who knows. As it stands the major asset available for sale either now or in the case of insolvency lays within ACL. An insolvency practitioner would look to sell it on to be able to raise funds i would have thought
The value of the lease would then depend on the lease owner, the business plan, the usage. It might be £60m to the new leaseholder it could be very different. It would be worth not a lot to the council and only really attain value once in the hands of the new leaseholder. In much the same way as it happened with the current owners. The lease loses some of its value when there is no one to run the site as a going concern then regains a value in the hands of the new leaseholder. The values in the old ACL accounts (pre Wasps) and the current depend on ACL being a going concern
It isnt that tangled IEC & Arena Coventry 2006 are now separate wholly owned subsidiaries of ACL which is itself wholly owned by Wasps Holdings. Not really in the scheme of things an intricate set up. The set up could actually allow for selling different bits off without affecting others
Wasps are owned by Moonstone holdings which is owned by Richardson
Compass are not involved anymore and when they were had a 23% minority holding in IEC. They stopped being involved 14 July 2018
The value of the lease would then depend on the lease owner, the business plan, the usage. It might be £60m to the new leaseholder it could be very different. It would be worth not a lot to the council and only really attain value once in the hands of the new leaseholder. In much the same way as it happened with the current owners. The lease loses some of its value when there is no one to run the site as a going concern then regains a value in the hands of the new leaseholder. The values in the old ACL accounts (pre Wasps) and the current depend on ACL being a going concern
It isnt that tangled IEC & Arena Coventry 2006 are now separate wholly owned subsidiaries of ACL which is itself wholly owned by Wasps Holdings. Not really in the scheme of things an intricate set up. The set up could actually allow for selling different bits off without affecting others
Wasps are owned by Moonstone holdings which is owned by Richardson
Compass are not involved anymore and when they were had a 23% minority holding in IEC. They stopped being involved 14 July 2018
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cc84cov
Well-Known Member
Talking to a guy today who works with Tim Fisher told me Joy’s aim is to get the club to the championship then sell stil not sure how it works with no stadium.Wasps accounts show a loss of 10m last year he thinks they might be waiting for them to break.Also wasps got thr ground through lending money through a bond scheme and they have till 2021 to pay back they can’t see how they can do that.
Nick
Administrator
Where does he work?
cc84cov
Well-Known Member
Said he was a real estate adviser showed me Tim Fisher in his phone etc said the council pretty much give the ground away he was involved in valuing the ground.Wasps accounts came out today apparently for the last year.
Nick
Administrator
To be honest, I could put a name in my phone as him and I bet it wouldn't be too hard to get hold of his number
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Huge pay out from sky should help
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
This is all public knowledge
letsallsingtogether
Well-Known Member
I've still got Mark tomato juice phone number in my phone no idea if he still owns it.To be honest, I could put a name in my phone as him and I bet it wouldn't be too hard to get hold of his number
Nick
Administrator
I guess it saves paying for sexting!I've still got Mark tomato juice phone number in my phone no idea if he still owns it.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Think its very poor of the council not to put an insolvency clause in the lease so they regain ownership. A situation where the lease is for sale with CCC, let alone those such as CCFC who would be impacted, having no say over who ends up with ownership is a massive oversight.
cc84cov
Well-Known Member
Council are the biggest crooks out there use Coventry tax payers money To build stadium thrnsell it to a London rugby firm...tossers as well
Well if that’s true about what Joy’s aim is I would think she would rubber stamp more funds this January to help the promotion cause.
Nick
Administrator
For a striker?
Skyblueweeman
Well-Known Member
Yeah, but then what do we talk about?!
Football? Pah.....
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oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
Just curious......but
valuing the ground for who though? The freehold is valued at nil by CCC in the council accounts - has been for years. The lease was valued by KPMG for CCC and then by Strutt & Parker LLP and Gerald Eve LLP for Wasps...... was he from one of those?
Didnt the recent court case confirm CCC adopted correct procedure and were entitled to sell at the value they did? They still own the freehold of course
so Seppala has no real plan and is relying on a large slice of luck in getting to the Championship sometime to be able to sell the club then? Given the additional cost the promotion brings with it that have to be financed and the lack of assets or long term base how does the value of CCFC greatly increase from where it is now? What happens if we dont get promoted? what she has said in the past are values that bear no resemblance to the value of the business in any division has that changed?
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oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
But thats why i said you have to look at the group situation....... the ACL sub group could be a going concern and could be carved out of the Wasps holdings group.......Wasps going bust doesnt necessarily mean ACL has to, but if it did then the lease reverts to CCC. The freeholder of any site has the right of approval of a leaseholder.
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Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
Most Championship clubs run at considerable loss so the problem here is that there is one season to swing the deal before the extra bills come home to roost and if expenditure is kept less than income then the club might just get relegated again.
lapsed_skyblue
Well-Known Member
The market for football clubs seems pretty soft of late. Granted somebody would probably buy say Man Utd, Liverpool or Chelsea at a premium but clubs like Aston Villa and Newcastle have been open for offers for quite a while now, admittedly at an over optimistic price. I suspect that quite a few other club owners would not be averse to offers either.
I can't see SISU being able to sell CCFC unless it is priced more like a disposal than an asset sale.
I can't see SISU being able to sell CCFC unless it is priced more like a disposal than an asset sale.
duffer
Well-Known Member
Civil courts can't award fines, that's for criminal courts. They can award damages, but I'm struggling to see on what grounds in this circumstance. Wasps haven't broken any contract with SISU that I know of, and there's no obligation in law for them to deal with SISU for (say) a new rental deal. Even if Wasps were sold the Ricoh undervalue, the remedy was between them and the council.
If in law (rather than morally) via the JRs the Council are found to have done nothing wrong, there's not much chance of damages there either!
If the appeal to the Supreme Court is turned down, I can't see how this isn't the end of the road for the legals. On what grounds could Wasps be brought back into court?
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
So if the current litigation is not about damages or fines, it is about grinding the other parties down?
Wiseoldfool
Well-Known Member
Compass ended their interest 12 years early and Delaware North took over the catering and hospitality,probably the only part that's making significant profit.Could they be the third party that takes over ACL.