Butts Park Arena is new home (5 Viewers)

SkyBlueZack · Dec 15, 2015

Couldn't agree more about looking at it when they first took over, as you say you would expect them to. I think they would have been more likely to have got a cheaper rent in the championship at the time, say 600k. Would of saved 700k a year. I think FFP has changed their way of thinking and that's where the stadium push came from. FFP in it's ideal makes it a more level playing field. Think SISU saw the stadium if run well would maximise CCFC FFP therefore giving bigger prospect of promotion. Premiership with 125 year lease from the time the dispute started to say 5 years. No it weren't a short fix but they have been around far longer than they ever envisaged.

dongonzalos · Dec 15, 2015

To be honest I don't think anything will happen with CCFC one way or the other until all legal action has been exhausted. SISU I think have got us in a position where the club now pays for itself. So why commit to a new stadium, attempt to buy half of ACL. Commit long term to the Ricoh. Or sell the club. Until they know if they can get compensation or not.
I personally believe talk or rugby council, butts park arena, signing ten years at the Ricoh. Will keep surfacing but nothing will happen until all legal action has been resolved one way or the other. I don't like what SISU are doing as I personally don't think it is the best course of action for CCFC but I can see why they think it is the best action for SISU.

Moff · Dec 15, 2015

Hobo said:
And which ever way you rake it makes no difference

Very true....unless you unearth a billionaire CCFC fan with money to burn!

skybluetony176 · Dec 15, 2015

torchomatic said:
August 2012.

Only they weren't turned down they didn't have an appetite to move forward as neither did Higgs as ruled in a court of law and has never been appealed so is probably the only one confirmed fact in this whole soap opera.

Also that was for the Higgs share not the council share so when you say that the council should have help onto it. SISU bid and were turned down that also isn't true. SISU have never made a bid for the councils stake so there's no possible way that the council could have turned them down. It's the definition of impossibility.

torchomatic · Dec 15, 2015

Well, hello.

dongonzalos said:
To be honest I don't think anything will happen with CCFC one way or the other until all legal action has been exhausted. SISU I think have got us in a position where the club now pays for itself. So why commit to a new stadium, attempt to buy half of ACL. Commit long term to the Ricoh. Or sell the club. Until they know if they can get compensation or not.
I personally believe talk or rugby council, butts park arena, signing ten years at the Ricoh. Will keep surfacing but nothing will happen until all legal action has been resolved one way or the other. I don't like what SISU are doing as I personally don't think it is the best course of action for CCFC but I can see why they think it is the best action for SISU.

dongonzalos · Dec 15, 2015

Hi Torch
Been reading everything but haven't been able to post. It felt like I was in sweet shop with no money

oldskyblue58 · Dec 15, 2015

Charity notified SISU that the period of exclusivity was over early August. And that they now were free to talk to anyone else that was interested

In October 2012 SISU informed Charity that the shares were worthless but made a verbal offer of £2m which was turned down flat by the Charity Trustees. Offer was over at that point but interest died in August 2012 imo. No further offer until October 2014 would seem to have been made by SISU to Charity

So if it was clear there was no Charity deal to be done how were the discussions in December 2012 meaningful if ownership of the Charity shares was a key element?

torchomatic · Dec 15, 2015

Well, good to see you back on the campaign trail. I've kinda missed you.

dongonzalos said:
Hi Torch
Been reading everything but haven't been able to post. It felt like I was in sweet shop with no money 

Grendel · Dec 15, 2015

dongonzalos said:
Hi Torch
Been reading everything but haven't been able to post. It felt like I was in sweet shop with no money

Council cutbacks?

dongonzalos · Dec 15, 2015

OSB was that around the time PWHC did a report saying that the rent strike was lowering the value of the shares?
Did the charity say to SISU that they would like to talk to others as nothing has happened since initial discussions.

dongonzalos · Dec 15, 2015

Grendel said:
Council cutbacks?

I can't like a post here but I would if I could

dongonzalos · Dec 15, 2015

torchomatic said:
Well, good to see you back on the campaign trail. I've kinda missed you.

And you mate it's been really frustrating. I am sure I read something the other day from astute laughing about me on old posts that were dug up with me defending SISU but could even post to ask what that was all about!!!!
Also still in shock that we were playing the other day and bringing on Joe Cole to snatch a goal for us to keep our automatic promotion hopes on track, amazing stuff.

italiahorse · Dec 15, 2015

torchomatic said:
I doubt they care. Only CCFC fans - well, some of them - will.

If you actually ask the average Coventry Ratepayer (Requires leaving bedroom) they like the way the Ricoh is being used. I must admit they think CCFC are back with no problems though and they loose interest when you try to explain.

Most CCFC fans understand what has happened here.
A few on here can't see the wood for the trees ??

italiahorse · Dec 15, 2015

fernandopartridge said:
Not like the unscrupulous hedge fund, run by an irish property investor, who has used a rugby union team to get hold of a long lease at the Ricoh which is effectively a freehold.

Evidently the only interested party ?

italiahorse · Dec 15, 2015

Terry Gibson's perm said:
I would have preferred the council to keep hold of it as I didn't trust Sisu with it, but surely the council should have had something in the contract with the insects to say that it couldn't be mortgaged off.

It's a bit late now to be worrying about what the tax/rate payers of Coventry think plus the elected people there don't care about the voters if they did would they have joined up with Birmingham?

Is it mortgaged though?
CCC won't loose the freehold the debt is all Wasps.

torchomatic · Dec 15, 2015

How many were in the sample you used?

italiahorse said:
If you actually ask the average Coventry Ratepayer (Requires leaving bedroom) they like the way the Ricoh is being used. I must admit they think CCFC are back with no problems though and they loose interest when you try to explain.

Most CCFC fans understand what has happened here.
A few on here can't see the wood for the trees ??

fernandopartridge · Dec 15, 2015

italiahorse said:
Evidently the only interested party ?

You must have a terrible back from shifting those goalposts all the time.

skybluetony176 · Dec 15, 2015

chiefdave said:
You would have to be privvy to the conversation that took place to know that. I would suspect that, as with many things, before a formal bid is tabled an informal agreement would be made.

If the meeting went something like:
Joy "We'll give you £3m for your 50% but we want the lease extended to 125 years"
Anne "No chance, we aren't selling to you"
why would that then be followed up with a formal bid? The lack of a bid can just as easily be taken as evidence that SISU knew there was no chance of a purchase as it can to form part of any other narrative.

Oh come on. If joy had have placed any sort of interest in ACL and it was dismissed completely TF and ML wouldn't have been able to contain themselves, they couldn't have gone a week without exploding.

If SISU knew there was no chance then they had absolutely nothing to lose by placing a bid. I and I suspect many others would have got on board with SISU if they ever put CCC in that position. Hell I might even have gone to Sixfields.

It's been a war of words and that was the knockout blow for the council if SISU were serious about buying ACL.

Nick · Dec 15, 2015

italiahorse said:
If you actually ask the average Coventry Ratepayer (Requires leaving bedroom) they like the way the Ricoh is being used. I must admit they think CCFC are back with no problems though and they loose interest when you try to explain.

Most CCFC fans understand what has happened here.
A few on here can't see the wood for the trees ??

Most ccfc fans I know who don't use here, twitter etc just believe what's in the local news.

jimmyhillsfanclub · Dec 15, 2015

torchomatic said:
How many were in the sample you used?

how many does his car-park hold on a wasps match day?

torchomatic · Dec 15, 2015

Yes, the most high profile player we've had since Gerd Muller back in the days when we playing at good old Candlestick Park.

dongonzalos said:
Also still in shock that we were playing the other day and bringing on Joe Cole to snatch a goal for us to keep our automatic promotion hopes on track, amazing stuff.

Captain Dart · Dec 15, 2015

oldskyblue58 said:
For the life of me I have no idea why SISU didn't challenge the lease or rent when they bought in. To my mind that's just basics. Distressed business ........ so whats being paid out, what are the incomes, what can we afford, we want a better deal............ are all simple basic questions are they not, especially for people who specialise in such acquisitions

From what I understand had CCFC been undertaking operations as they are now (ie living within means) then we may well be in a better position now in terms of ownership of club and arena. Maybe we would have been relegated sooner but there is an argument to say we would have come back much stronger. Sadly reality got in the way of dreams. That may never have happened but was certainly never going to happen with the aggression shown by both sides

All too right, but I think Joy & Timmy realised several years too late, the initial plan was go for the Premiership with Ranson, for some reason SISU never understood how costly and risky that was. I think Onye Igwe was somewhat to blame here, he never seemed to have a clue, I doubt his feedback to SISU accurately reflected the situation & he had no strategy ideas himself, just a bean counter.

italiahorse · Dec 15, 2015

torchomatic said:
August 2012.

This is where you are clueless !!

From the JR (August 2012 offer)

Following due diligence, SISU did not wish to offer the price set out in theIndicative Term Sheet, being willing to offer only closer to £2m than £5.5m.This difference between the price SISU were prepared to offer and the pricethe Trustees were prepared to accept was (a) irreconcilable and (b) in itself, ashowstopper.

... and one of the SISU conditions of the offer that the bank would never entertain.

47.
SISU considered that the Bank debt could be purchased for £2m-5m. It was part oftheir plan that the debt be purchased – in whole, or at least as to 50%, by them – forthat sum. They were not prepared to offer more. The Heads of Terms supposed that,the debt having been purchased, it would be entirely written off; although the Councilwas sensible to the possibility that SISU might purchase the debt from the Bank(which had no constraints on the person to whom the loan and mortgage might betransferred) and use their position as creditor to put further pressure on ACL and thusthe Council.

You really need to get into the detail :facepalm:

italiahorse · Dec 15, 2015

dongonzalos said:
OSB was that around the time PWHC did a report saying that the rent strike was lowering the value of the shares?
Did the charity say to SISU that they would like to talk to others as nothing has happened since initial discussions.

Read the JR report below.

dongonzalos · Dec 15, 2015

I know hindsight is a wonderful thing but what was ACL really worth to SISU?
If what we are getting told now is correct the club has no future without it. Other than to build a new stadium.
A new stadium I think will cost more than what ACL could have been bought for.

So you have a few valuations of ACL really....

1) The true value if everybody is playing fair ie dealing upfront and not withholding rent to lower the valuation or overvaluing it

2) The value that is would be given once the rent strike has devalued it. ( the price Wasps paid IMO)

3) the value it was actually worth to SISU ie without it the only alternative it seems is to build a new stadium. If it is that important don't try and drive down the price with tactics that will upset the seller. Meet somewhere in the middle of their overvaluation your undervaluation.

However if it really is that important to the club get the deal done don't mess it up. With the legal fees and everything that has gone on since, if we could have just paid slightly over the odds for it back then imagine pushing for promotion now and owning ACL. SISU may with promotion have had a product worth 20-30 million.
It wouldn't have got them all their investment back but it would have looked good on Joy to have got hands on and sorted it. IMO the rent strike and antagonistic sales tactics have become so costly.

italiahorse · Dec 15, 2015

Nick said:
Most ccfc fans I know who don't use here, twitter etc just believe what's in the local news.

Unbelievable as it may seem you can also talk to people when they are standing right in front of you and it's not just your mum bringing in your breakfast.

chiefdave · Dec 15, 2015

skybluetony176 said:
Oh come on. If joy had have placed any sort of interest in ACL and it was dismissed completely TF and ML wouldn't have been able to contain themselves, they couldn't have gone a week without exploding.

You don't know that. SISU haven't shown themselves so far to be masters of PR.

italiahorse said:
If you actually ask the average Coventry Ratepayer (Requires leaving bedroom) they like the way the Ricoh is being used.

Suspect how you ask the question would also impact the response. For example its very different to be asked "are you happy with how the Ricoh is being used" to "are you happy that the council sold the Ricoh to a rugby club from London at less than half their investment, potentially losing millions in interest payments and for a fraction of the current valuation" you would get very different answers.

italiahorse · Dec 15, 2015

torchomatic said:
How many were in the sample you used?

My mum, my 2 sisters, 7 grand kids, my wife (after briefing) and both jack russels (after treats) were 100% in agreement.

Nick · Dec 15, 2015

italiahorse said:
Unbelievable as it may seem you can also talk to people when they are standing right in front of you and it's not just your mum bringing in your breakfast.

Or yours, if you want to bring mums into it

I don't think you understood, I must have spoken to them to know they just reel off what's been in the telegraph that week...

italiahorse · Dec 15, 2015

Nick said:
Or yours, if you want to bring mums into it

She's 83 and she's oblivious to the the way Sisu have treated our club. Your a young lad but you do have things in common

Astute · Dec 15, 2015

italiahorse said:
That would stop all investment in the area dead in the water.
Effectively what you are saying is wait for Sisu.
In that respect CCC have made the difficult, but right, decision and Sisu have set our club back 10 years.

I have always said that I understand why they let Wasps have the arena. But that doesn't mean that it was the right decision. It isn't as though the arena is a football ground and nothing else.

Nick · Dec 15, 2015

italiahorse said:
She's 83 and she's oblivious to the the way Sisu have treated our club. Your a young lad but you do have things in common

So many answers, so much offence caused

dongonzalos · Dec 15, 2015

Astute said:
I have always said that I understand why they let Wasps have the arena. But that doesn't mean that it was the right decision. It isn't as though the arena is a football ground and nothing else.

Astute what we're talking about a couple a weeks ago about an old thread and me defending SISU?

italiahorse · Dec 15, 2015

Astute said:
I have always said that I understand why they let Wasps have the arena. But that doesn't mean that it was the right decision. It isn't as though the arena is a football ground and nothing else.

It may not be right for CCFC/us but because CCC would need to wait for Sisu it's right for them and hence the ratepayers.

Astute · Dec 15, 2015

torchomatic said:
Yep, the "unencumbered" line thrown about by Mart and Italia came later. 2012 was Mutton's year of "anyone but SISU". Mart et al can spin it anyway they want though; we were never offered what Wasps were.

That is the difference between negotiating and bullying.

If I was selling something and someone tried bullying me to get the price down I would tell them to f**k off. If someone tried to negotiate I would listen to what they had to say.

Butts Park Arena is new home (5 Viewers)

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