Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (41 Viewers)

[skybluetony176]

BREAKING: Court Order shows Boris Johnson misled Parliament over Covid contracts | Good Law Project

3 days after the High Court ruled Government had acted unlawfully by failing to publish Covid contracts, Boris Johnson stood up in the House of Commons and reassured MPs and the public that all Covid-related contracts were “on the record”. However, the final Order handed down by the Judge today...

goodlawproject.org

 

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[David O'Day]

The reason you shouldn’t raise CT on profits over a certain amount is that huge companies will make cost savings (staffing, pay etc) to maintain these absurd profits, which in turn negatively impacts I get that. But how the fuck did we get to this point?

Late era capitalism

 

[CCFCSteve]

The reason you shouldn’t raise CT on profits over a certain amount is that huge companies will make cost savings (staffing, pay etc) to maintain these absurd profits, which in turn negatively impacts I get that. But how the fuck did we get to this point?

I’ve stayed out of the economic arguments on this thread but I really don’t think this is correct Ian and also, what’s the choice ?! Nobody wants more austerity but then when increases of the only progressive/fairest forms of significant taxation ie CT and income tax, which are based on if you are doing better you pay more, there’s still grumbles.

They’ve delayed its implementation for a couple of years, thrown a load more cash at struggling businesses, tried to keep smallest/most businesses out of the rise and also tried to offer significant incentives around investment/apprentices etc in the meantime. Companies that have struggled during Covid can also carry back losses for longer so will further minimise taxable profits in 2023/4

Most people and businesses don’t want to pay more tax but a majority will accept under the current circumstances this is probably the fairest solution (I would’ve supported some kind of new wealth or digital tax in principle but wouldn’t be easy to implement - amazon, tech etc don’t pay tax to anyone - this needs addressing internationally)

 

[Ian1779]

I’ve stayed out of the economic arguments on this thread but I really don’t think this is correct Ian and also, what’s the choice ?! Nobody wants more austerity but then when increases of the only progressive/fairest forms of significant taxation ie CT and income tax, which are based on if you are doing better you pay more, there’s still grumbles.

They’ve delayed its implementation for a couple of years, thrown a load more cash at struggling businesses, tried to keep smallest/most businesses out of the rise and also tried to offer significant incentives around investment/apprentices etc in the meantime. Companies that have struggled during Covid can also carry back losses for longer so will further minimise taxable profits in 2023/4

Most people and businesses don’t want to pay more tax but a majority will accept under the current circumstances this is probably the fairest solution (I would’ve supported some kind of new wealth or digital tax in principle but wouldn’t be easy to implement - amazon, tech etc don’t pay tax to anyone - this needs addressing internationally)

Austerity is a political choice - it was then and it will be in the future.
And as I’ve said earlier, when the government owes 92% of its Cov-ID borrowing to itself... this idea of having to pay it back is not the same anymore.

 

[Ian1779]

You could. But you’d be ignoring the fact that every time the Tories suggest raising the threshold people on the left point out it’s a tax cut for the middle class. Every time until Starmer said it.

You realise our 2019 manifesto actually wanted to phase out the income tax threshold for higher earners and didn’t propose increasing it for others?

Corbyn the red Tory clearly.

So what is the solution then? Freezing income tax thresholds won’t change the money in someone’s paycheck so much, but if everything else goes up it reduces the money they have left. You say don’t raise CT and I do see the rationale behind that, but again that means those that have massively profited from the last 12 months still don’t pay back into the system.

I think the pay rise for nurses furore is exacerbated by the shit salary they get in the first place. Factor in the loss of bursaries and likely debt that would be attached to train for this role and you can see overall what a shit package it is.

 

[CCFCSteve]

Austerity is a political choice - it was then and it will be in the future.
And as I’ve said earlier, when the government owes 92% of its Cov-ID borrowing to itself... this idea of having to pay it back is not the same anymore.

Yeah, I know they/BoE have managed to magic some cash out of thin air during the pandemic. I don’t think it will be 92% by the end of it though. We also have 100s billions that we borrow on bond markets that have been edging up recently. Current borrowing costs are very low but will 100% be rising in next year or two and I’m sure I read even 1% rise will see our borrowing costs go up by 20-30bn per annum. Scary. By all accounts the borrowing rates will increase by more if we arent seen to be trying to address the deficit

ps who’d have thought, you arguing against CT rises for big multi nationals and me supporting ...Covids turned the world crazy !

 

[shmmeee]

So what is the solution then? Freezing income tax thresholds won’t change the money in someone’s paycheck so much, but if everything else goes up it reduces the money they have left. You say don’t raise CT and I do see the rationale behind that, but again that means those that have massively profited from the last 12 months still don’t pay back into the system.

I think the pay rise for nurses furore is exacerbated by the shit salary they get in the first place. Factor in the loss of bursaries and likely debt that would be attached to train for this role and you can see overall what a shit package it is.

The solution is you put money in peoples pockets and give business the breathing room to recover. Can’t really raise NMW sadly as it’s hospitality that’ll get hit and they’ve had enough right now, which would normally be my go to. But I would raise public sector pay and fund social care to enable better pay in that sector too

I’d raise NHS pay, it’s the morally right thing to do and as the countries largest employer will raise spending power in every part of the economy, also these are mostly people who haven’t been working from home and all the savings that entails.

Then I’d raise universal credit to both put money in the pockets of the poorest and in anticipation of a lot of labour market movement once furlough ends.

Id probably also cut VAT and alcohol duty as we’re looking for consumer spending and hospitality to recover the economy. Keep carbon taxes like fuel and passenger duty to discourage travel and for climate reasons.

Assuming we’re just talking immediate tax and benefits changes. I’d do other stuff like bring back the green deal, infrastructure investment, and legalise cannabis to help the recovery as well but that’s a bit wider.

 

[Grendel]

Yeah, I know they/BoE have managed to magic some cash out of thin air during the pandemic. I don’t think it will be 92% by the end of it though. We also have 100s billions that we borrow on bond markets that have been edging up recently. Current borrowing costs are very low but will 100% be rising in next year or two and I’m sure I read even 1% rise will see our borrowing costs go up by 20-30bn per annum. Scary. By all accounts the borrowing rates will increase by more if we arent seen to be trying to address the deficit

ps who’d have thought, you arguing against CT rises for big multi nationals and me supporting ...Covids turned the world crazy !

it’s classic Corbynomics regarding borrowing

 

[shmmeee]

it’s classic Corbynomics regarding borrowing

Please find me one serious modern day economist who agrees with you.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Please find me one serious modern day economist who agrees with you.

Rishi Sunak

 

[shmmeee]

Stupid Corbynite *checks notes* International Monetary Fund

Fiscal Monitor, October 2020 - Policies for the Recovery

Chapter 1 of the October 2020 Fiscal Monitor discusses fiscal policies during and after the pandemic that save lives and livelihoods and revive growth and job creation. Chapter 2 of the October 2020 Fiscal Monitor discusses how public investment can contribute to the recovery, create jobs, and...

www.imf.org

 

[shmmeee]

Rishi Sunak

He’s neither serious nor an economist. He is modern day though, I’ll give you that.

 

[Ian1779]

Yeah, I know they/BoE have managed to magic some cash out of thin air during the pandemic. I don’t think it will be 92% by the end of it though. We also have 100s billions that we borrow on bond markets that have been edging up recently. Current borrowing costs are very low but will 100% be rising in next year or two and I’m sure I read even 1% rise will see our borrowing costs go up by 20-30bn per annum. Scary. By all accounts the borrowing rates will increase by more if we arent seen to be trying to address the deficit

ps who’d have thought, you arguing against CT rises for big multi nationals and me supporting ...Covids turned the world crazy !

Does the BoE charge the government to borrow from them? How did that all work with QE?

 

[shmmeee]

Yeah, I know they/BoE have managed to magic some cash out of thin air during the pandemic. I don’t think it will be 92% by the end of it though. We also have 100s billions that we borrow on bond markets that have been edging up recently. Current borrowing costs are very low but will 100% be rising in next year or two and I’m sure I read even 1% rise will see our borrowing costs go up by 20-30bn per annum. Scary. By all accounts the borrowing rates will increase by more if we arent seen to be trying to address the deficit

ps who’d have thought, you arguing against CT rises for big multi nationals and me supporting ...Covids turned the world crazy !

There is simply no evidence for this. We lost our AAA rating last time despite some of the toughest austerity measures around. There is simply no evidence that our ability to lend is suddenly going to dry up and there never has been. The fundamentals of an economy matter far more than the deficit.

Every single debt has been dealt with by economic growth not economic contraction. There’s no logical reason to think this will be different.

“magic up” - where exactly do you think money comes from? Do you think we mine tenners out the ground?

Also curious how you reconcile this apparent super importance of the deficit with the financial data we have going back the last century. How many surpluses have we run and what correlation to our credit rating do you think it has?

<2% of GDP to service out debt is nothing compared to the costs of lack of investment.

 

[robbiekeane]

There is simply no evidence for this. We lost our AAA rating last time despite some of the toughest austerity measures around. There is simply no evidence that our ability to lend is suddenly going to dry up and there never has been. The fundamentals of an economy matter far more than the deficit.

Every single debt has been dealt with by economic growth not economic contraction. There’s no logical reason to think this will be different.

“magic up” - where exactly do you think money comes from? Do you think we mine tenners out the ground?

Also curious how you reconcile this apparent super importance of the deficit with the financial data we have going back the last century. How many surpluses have we run and what correlation to our credit rating do you think it has?

<2% of GDP to service out debt is nothing compared to the costs of lack of investment.

View attachment 19023

Never understood why people look at debt or debt repayments as a % of gdp instead of a % of tax revenue

 

[Grendel]

Please find me one serious modern day economist who agrees with you.

Well you believe in MMT and I don’t clearly none and really all your posts on this are directly taken from Richard Murphy.

 

[shmmeee]

Never understood why people look at debt or debt repayments as a % of gdp instead of a % of tax revenue

Because we don’t spend our tax revenue.

Tax is a mechanise for removing money from the economy because of inflation or for punishing certain behaviours. And for giving a currency a use.

What matters is the size of the economy as that indicates how strong our currency is.

 

[shmmeee]

Well you believe in MMT and I don’t clearly none and really all your posts on this are directly taken from Richard Murphy.

Richard Murphy writes for the IMF now?

It’s not MMT, it’s basic Keynesianism. In fact it’s just basic economics these days.

Feel free to attempt an actual intelligent discussion rather than going all Mean Girls about some commentator you don’t like personally though. Solid economic foundations in the “OMG Cheryl Did You Hear About That Bitch School of Economics” I believe. But crack on with your well thought out theory, can’t wait to hear it.

Or like everything else are you going to suck your thumb in the corner because you haven’t got the brains to join in?

 

[stupot07]

Less money in the pocket of any worker = reduced demand for goods and services in the private sector. It really is that simple.

Pay freezes / stagnation in the public sector only gives private sector employers the ammunition to continue under paying staff, it's a race to the bottom.

Exactly. I heard the royal college of nursing on the radio saying that they commissioned the London School of Economics to do some modelling of NHS pay rise, and it showed that most of it went straight back into the public purse through different taxation and supporting businesses.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

 

[Grendel]

Richard Murphy writes for the IMF now?

It’s not MMT, it’s basic Keynesianism. In fact it’s just basic economics these days.

Feel free to attempt an actual intelligent discussion rather than going all Mean Girls about some commentator you don’t like personally though. Solid economic foundations in the “OMG Cheryl Did You Hear About That Bitch School of Economics” I believe. But crack on with your well thought out theory, can’t wait to hear it.

Or like everything else are you going to suck your thumb in the corner because you haven’t got the brains to join in?

Lol your obsessed with him and his theory - perhaps you’d like to educate the ignorant masses - as you clearly have a vastly superior intellect to most in here - as to how the Eu as an example could operate MMT in practice. Actually let’s go beyond that and perhaps you can educate all of us on examples that actually have worked in practice

Why don’t you ask a Richard to let you write an article on taxresearch.com?

 

[shmmeee]

Lol your obsessed with him and his theory - perhaps you’d like to educate the ignorant masses - as you clearly have a vastly superior intellect to most in here - as to how the Eu as an example could operate MMT in practice. Actually let’s go beyond that and perhaps you can educate all of us on examples that actually have worked in practice

Why don’t you ask a Richard to let you write an article on taxresearch.com?

You’re the one who brought him up. I’ve posted data from the ONS and commentary from the IMF.

You haven’t even tried to refute anything I’ve said. Just wittered on about MMT and Richard Murphy.

Come on Grendel, don’t be a pussy all your life. Let’s hear your economic theory. Can’t wait. Feel free just to link to someone making similar arguments if you like. I promise I’ll actually address the arguments rather than act like a Y9 girls clique.

 

[David O'Day]

Well you believe in MMT and I don’t clearly none and really all your posts on this are directly taken from Richard Murphy.

You once claimed devaluation was the best action for the UK to take after brexit. You are economically illiterate

 

[Grendel]

You’re the one who brought him up. I’ve posted data from the ONS and commentary from the IMF.

You haven’t even tried to refute anything I’ve said. Just wittered on about MMT and Richard Murphy.

Come on Grendel, don’t be a pussy all your life. Let’s hear your economic theory. Can’t wait. Feel free just to link to someone making similar arguments if you like. I promise I’ll actually address the arguments rather than act like a Y9 girls clique.

Do you support the EU and the way it is set up in terms of currency union across a variety of states?

 

[hill83]

Do you support the EU and the way it is set up in terms of currency union across a variety of states?

I haven’t got a clue what any of you are going on about but do what he said rather than responding with another question please. There’s a fella.

 

[Grendel]

Oh and also would your modern economic “theory” work in india and if not why not?

 

[Grendel]

I haven’t got a clue what any of you are going on about but do what he said rather than responding with another question please. There’s a fella.

Well I am because he’s an advocate of MMT and also of the EU and despite what he claims he has frequently quoted Richard Murphy to support his arguments and his arguments are I can’t see comparable

Its Corbynomics - print money and create demand above supply by keep printing money and I assume buying up government bonds of pension funds

You can’t argue with him anyway as he then has a meltdown expresses his superiority on “theory” then gets even angrier - he will go on about holly willoughby and a blow job soon (Freud would have a field day with him)

To be honest I don’t know why I bother. Most people don’t believe a word he says but can’t be bothered. I should just leave it.

 

[hill83]

Who knows, might be part of return of schools maybe Pete.

My lad has to get tested every week to go to school.

 

[Evo1883]

We're currently in a situation where you can work at aldi and be paid more than if you go to university, and work long hours changing people's lives as a nurse.

 

[chiefdave]

If she’s making that point she’s not doing a great job articulating it. If you watch that in conjunction with her media appearances in the last 7 days you will pick out that she’s strongly against a rise in corporation tax and ambivalent at best on the rest.

Exactly this. Its another example of the centrists doing exactly the same thing they've been complaining about the left doing. Years of saying the general public are only interested in soundbites and don't take in the finer detail as well as claiming the media have little influence. Now complaining people are only looking at the big picture and not the finer detail and saying the media are taking quotes out of context.

The average person on the street isn't going to wade through pages of arguing on a forum to try and work out the nuance of Labours economic policy. They'll form their opinion based on the relatively small amount of information that cuts through and Labour just aren't cutting through.

All this is accompanied by Labour and Starmer falling further behind in the polls which we're supposed to believe is all part of some genius long term plan. Maybe it is and they'll sweep to victory with a huge majority.

 

[David O'Day]

Exactly this. Its another example of the centrists doing exactly the same thing they've been complaining about the left doing. Years of saying the general public are only interested in soundbites and don't take in the finer detail as well as claiming the media have little influence. Now complaining people are only looking at the big picture and not the finer detail and saying the media are taking quotes out of context.

The average person on the street isn't going to wade through pages of arguing on a forum to try and work out the nuance of Labours economic policy. They'll form their opinion based on the relatively small amount of information that cuts through and Labour just aren't cutting through.

All this is accompanied by Labour and Starmer falling further behind in the polls which we're supposed to believe is all part of some genius long term plan. Maybe it is and they'll sweep to victory with a huge majority.

Of course the government is ahead in the polls, we are in the middle of a successful vaccine program and they are the incumbents so yes they will get a bounce.

We are at least 3 and a half years away from an election.

 

[Ian1779]

Of course the government is ahead in the polls, we are in the middle of a successful vaccine program and they are the incumbents so yes they will get a bounce.

We are at least 3 and a half years away from an election.

We all know that is the case to be fair. But Labour could be easily saying that the success of the vaccination program is down to the publicly owned NHS, and the incompetence lies in the government and their repeated wasting of public funds with people like Serco etc.

3 years is a long time, but they’ve had a press that have generally played nicely so far. They got just about every call on schools wrong in this pandemic, beaten to the punch by Marcus Rashford on free school meals.

Yes they have been vocal on the nurses pay rise... but this where they need to turn the screw - drive home that message about the NHS success and how all that wasted cash to Serco could have provided public sector pay rises all over the place. Now it’s time to take the gloves off.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Nurses should go on a work to rule

Bit difficult because the job they do directly impacts people's health and wellbeing. Plus if they worked to rule it could result in lost public sympathy.

If a nurse is helping out in a critical situation you can't expect them to work to rule because someone could die if they do. Similarly even if it's just menial stuff like bedpans etc how do you think the public 9and indeed the nurses themsleves) would feel leaving someone sitting in their own filth because they haven't got precisely the correct equipment. Or halfway through helping someone they went "breaktime - back in 20 mins" or just left them there because it was the end of their shift?

It's why the govt know they can largely get away with stunts like this. People like nurses and carers do the job because they're caring people, not for financial gain. So these threats are by and large empty because their very nature won't let them carry it through.

However, i bet when the MP pay review comes through it's more than 1%.

As I've said before, law should be put in that MP pay can't increase by more than the lowest amount offered in the public sector.

 

[Terry Gibson's perm]

£34k

Is it I had better let my wife know as she has been a band 5nurse for twenty years and I think might just about get 30k, you can earn more with unsociable hours payments.
She went to university to gain her degree when she was twenty odd and lived with me but they said that her as her dad was on a decent salary he had to fund her while there they make you work as if a nurse for free so she had to commute to Birmingham’s hospitals, while there she had to pay to park but not at staff rates full price. She then had to go back to university for another year to in her specialist field.

She currently has a colleague off sick who was assaulted by a patient while at work the support she is getting from the trust is pitiful.

My wife as a twenty year degree qualified nurse gets about 30k a year by the time she is taxed, pays for parking and makes her 9.3% contribution to her pension (which is three times what it was for a final salary pension when she started) her pensionable age has gone up years and union fees, she comes out with £1800 per month.

She has always said no striking before but this time she would strike but doesn’t believe it will happen as unison are weak.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Well if they can’t we all should

 

[shmmeee]

Nurses earn above the national average?

It’s a skilled job you fucking idiot.

Fucks sake. Gerald from Marketing thinking others are overpaid. Couldn’t make it up.