Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (14 Viewers)

fernandopartridge · Apr 14, 2020

Some colleagues of mine have been working 7 days to support the opening of the Manchester Nightingale. It'll be used as a step-down from ICU (that's palliative care or rehabilitation). It has 650ish beds and they're assuming they'll need 140 of them by mid May. Not sure yet whether all of the capacity will ever be used.

Ironically, the location is Manchester Central (formerly known as GMEX) where the Tories have held their conference for the last few years.

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 14, 2020

fernandopartridge said:
Some colleagues of mine have been working 7 days to support the opening of the Manchester Nightingale. It'll be used as a step-down from ICU (that's palliative care or rehabilitation). It has 650ish beds and they're assuming they'll need 140 of them by mid May. Not sure yet whether all of the capacity will ever be used.

Ironically, the location is Manchester Central (formerly known as GMEX) where the Tories have held their conference for the last few years.

In New York they converted Hillary Clinton’s ‘victory party’ venue from 2016

rob9872 · Apr 14, 2020

shmmeee said:
What I’ve seen is there’s generally two “levels” of racism, one everyone agrees is racism (calling black people w*gs or Asians p**i for example), and one more subtle that people argue over and seems to expand and contract based on who committed it. Stuff like calling a black woman ugly for (a bad) example, I’ve seen people say “that plays into the stereotypes of black women being ugly and therefore is racist” and others say “I’d call them ugly whatever their skin colour so it’s not racism”.

Similarly the slippery slope argument around say “you can’t say Islam has an issue with terrorism because then you’re saying all followers of Islam are terrorists”.

This second form is more nebulous to define and can be very much “I know it when I see it” which makes the rules harder to know ahead of time and feel unfair.

It’s interesting as a white guy to sit and pontificate about, it’s nice to have that luxury, but very hard for those that are definitely feeing prejudice with no clear way to explain why.

Racism has many levels, some of them perceived others more obvious, but it's what someone feels that you can never know until you're in their shoes. I've heard before the argument 'how can you know, you're white?', I guess as we become more educated on the subject many of us can now understand that better and empathise, but without actually knowing. The one I found hardest to digest was the term 'white privilege' as there are plenty of people discriminated against for other reasons and similarly many brought up in equal hardship, but the best definition of it I read, was that people accept there are white people who have an equally difficult struggle as black or Asian people, but that the difference was, they had never been discriminated against or brought in hardship simply because of the colour of their skin and that's hard to argue with.

Ring Of Steel · Apr 14, 2020

PVA said:
It's a good job that the government turned down the offer of 5,000 ready sourced ventilators in favour of asking Dyson and JCB - two big Tory donors - to make some for them.

Oh wait.

Fucking scandalous.

Yet still people defend them.

The daily UK Government COVID19 email update says that the "specifications are still being worked on" whatever that means.

Sorry thats not actually right, the govt are giving out the specs in an appeal to companies to make them. This was this morning, have we not got past this part yet?

Coronavirus (COVID-19): ventilator supply specification

SkyBlueCharlie9 · Apr 14, 2020

skybluetony176 said:
Just reading about this on the BBC website and apparently many EU countries have too much PPE as a result of the scheme.

Don't think any country can have too much PPE.

skyblueinBaku · Apr 14, 2020

Ring Of Steel said:
Some good news this morning.

Princess Beatrice had to call her wedding off due to COVID19. She’s announced that the rearranged wedding next year will be much bigger, more extravagant and more expensive than originally planned, in order to raise the nation’s spirits and give us something to look forward to while we’re locked down.

Good God, that's crazy. Does she really think that with thousands dying, people will be looking forward to the very expensive wedding of a royal nobody?:emoji_rolling_eyes:

Ring Of Steel · Apr 14, 2020

skyblueindorset said:
Good God, that's crazy. Does she really think that with thousands dying, people will be looking forward to the very expensive wedding of a royal nobody?:emoji_rolling_eyes:

Saw it in a couple of the papers this am, they literally use "to cheer the nation up" and phrases like that.

I wonder if Andrew will show up to really give us something to cheer

Ring Of Steel · Apr 14, 2020

rob9872 said:
Racism has many levels, some of them perceived others more obvious, but it's what someone feels that you can never know until you're in their shoes. I've heard before the argument 'how can you know, you're white?', I guess as we become more educated on the subject many of us can now understand that better and empathise, but without actually knowing. The one I found hardest to digest was the term 'white privilege' as there are plenty of people discriminated against for other reasons and similarly many brought up in equal hardship, but the best definition of it I read, was that people accept there are white people who have an equally difficult struggle as black or Asian people, but that the difference was, they had never been discriminated against or brought in hardship simply because of the colour of their skin and that's hard to argue with.

I think thats a really good post. I guess the best personification of the 'white privilege' thing is Laurence Fox, who kicks off for no apparent reason aside from seemingly being annoyed at non-white people complaining about things he doesn't understand.

Ring Of Steel · Apr 14, 2020

fernandopartridge said:
Some colleagues of mine have been working 7 days to support the opening of the Manchester Nightingale. It'll be used as a step-down from ICU (that's palliative care or rehabilitation). It has 650ish beds and they're assuming they'll need 140 of them by mid May. Not sure yet whether all of the capacity will ever be used.

Ironically, the location is Manchester Central (formerly known as GMEX) where the Tories have held their conference for the last few years.

I went to 'Fantazia 1997' there with Paul Van Dyk headlining, went on until 6am and I could have done with some care & rehab after that weekend

skybluetony176 · Apr 14, 2020

Nurse 'paid ultimate price' for lack of PPE
Tragic loss and possibly avoidable. Questions need answering here.

David O'Day · Apr 14, 2020

clint van damme said:
5live with a big report on the care home situation
Heart breaking what's happening.

They've just been abandoned, the NHS is also to blame for this.

Astute · Apr 14, 2020

fernandopartridge said:
Good, I can't be arsed conversing with you either you petulant child.

Your lies are so obvious the person to agree with you is G. And we all kniw what he is like.

Fair play. Keep up your agenda.

SkyBlueDom26 · Apr 14, 2020

I am baffled about the whole mask argument, spain and Italy it seems are using them in order to come out of this lockdown yet we seem adamant they have no effect? Hmm

Brylowes · Apr 14, 2020

Ring Of Steel said:
It’s the “it could have gone either way” stuff, knowing what we know about this virus had he been taken that close to death then he wouldn’t be out within 48 hours. The problem is though that the man is such a pathological bullshitter and conman that it’s impossible to separate fact from fiction anywhere down the line. Who wouldn’t ask questions with his track record? I’m glad he’s well but my god he’s some liar, and who knows what the actual truth is of how seriously ill he was, and there is nothing wrong in asking.

Ring Of Steel said:
He also loves the attention, your assessment is a very valid one.

He is also very well known for his tendency to disappear from sight during troublesome times.

I’m really not sure whether this is down to him personally ‘or the likes of Cummings in an exercise of damage limitation.

Ring Of Steel · Apr 14, 2020

Brylowes said:
He is also very well known for his tendency to disappear from sight during troublesome times.

I’m really not sure whether this is down to him personally ‘or the likes of Cummings in an exercise of damage limitation.

Last thing I heard was that Cummings was isolating after coming down with it. Since that time Peston & Kuennsberg have noticeably had to stop referring to their "senior government source" when reporting things

Ring Of Steel · Apr 14, 2020

SkyBlueDom26 said:
I am baffled about the whole mask argument, spain and Italy it seems are using them in order to come out of this lockdown yet we seem adamant they have no effect? Hmm

Its not that "we" seem adamant, a few people in particular do, the same people that would have you believe we've been on point the whole way through this in the way we have handled it. Funnily enough the country most lauded as the place which handled the virus best of all- South Korea- they had to ration them. Yet us and USA, with massive numbers of deaths, constant failures, not supplying PPE, arguably the worst responses in the world- not convinced of their use. I'd ask- who would you believe?

David O'Day · Apr 14, 2020

I'd believe the majority of virologists who point out that while if you use a mask correctly it can help but people dont, they touch them raje them iff, pull them down etc which can make them actually worse and a trap for pathogens.

So if you leave the mask on, hever touch it etc it could help

Ring Of Steel · Apr 14, 2020

David O'Day said:
I'd believe the majority of virologists who point out that while if you use a mask correctly it can help but people dont, they touch them raje them iff, pull them down etc which can make them actually worse and a trap for pathogens.

So if you leave the mask on, hever touch it etc it could help

very well put, didn't know that- if you get one don't fuck about with it & use it properly

David O'Day · Apr 14, 2020

Ring Of Steel said:
very well put, didn't know that- if you get one don't fuck about with it & use it properly

Alas people don't so they become a hindrance rather than a help.

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fernandopartridge · Apr 14, 2020

SkyBlueDom26 said:
I am baffled about the whole mask argument, spain and Italy it seems are using them in order to come out of this lockdown yet we seem adamant they have no effect? Hmm

The reason they're coming out of lockdown or talking about it is the rate of infection is coming down. It isn't because they've bought a load of masks.

It would be a ridiculous proposition to come out of lockdown based on the premise of everybody wearing masks.

fernandopartridge · Apr 14, 2020

For anybody interested, it looks like the HSJ had made their articles open access at the moment (you usually need a subscription to access them). This really is a far more reliable place to go for NHS type news than the MSM:

Exclusive: Nightingale largely empty as ICUs handle surge

tisza · Apr 14, 2020

fernandopartridge said:
The reason they're coming out of lockdown or talking about it is the rate of infection is coming down. It isn't because they've bought a load of masks.

It would be a ridiculous proposition to come out of lockdown based on the premise of everybody wearing masks.

Poland easing up but if you go out side you have to wear a mask or a scarf across your face

fernandopartridge · Apr 14, 2020

Another 813 hospital deaths as of 5pm yesterday

5252 more positive tests from 11789 tested, not very clear about the parameters for the data though, i.e. is that 5252 from that figure of 11789 or from the cumulative figure?

Either way, I don't think lockdown should end any time soon even though I reckon the govt want to go that way (hence the OBR report that nobody asked for)

CCFCSteve · Apr 14, 2020

fernandopartridge said:
Another 813 hospital deaths as of 5pm yesterday

5252 more positive tests from 11789 tested, not very clear about the parameters for the data though, i.e. is that 5252 from that figure of 11789 or from the cumulative figure?

Either way, I don't think lockdown should end any time soon even though I reckon the govt want to go that way (hence the OBR report that nobody asked for)

Agreed. Rumour is early May at the earliest Fernando.

ps in terms of the confirmed cases it’s 5k from around 14982 tests over 11879 people tested (some obviously tested twice). I think these were tests carried out on 13 April

David O'Day · Apr 14, 2020

It's going to be june before they can start to loosen

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shmmeee · Apr 14, 2020

fernandopartridge said:
Another 813 hospital deaths as of 5pm yesterday

5252 more positive tests from 11789 tested, not very clear about the parameters for the data though, i.e. is that 5252 from that figure of 11789 or from the cumulative figure?

Either way, I don't think lockdown should end any time soon even though I reckon the govt want to go that way (hence the OBR report that nobody asked for)

Still a bank holiday. Let’s see what tomorrow brings. If we’re below 1k it’s looking very much like we’re peaking

Brylowes · Apr 14, 2020

fernandopartridge said:
For anybody interested, it looks like the HSJ had made their articles open access at the moment (you usually need a subscription to access them). This really is a far more reliable place to go for NHS type news than the MSM:

Exclusive: Nightingale largely empty as ICUs handle surge

Could there be a darker reason (even partially) as to why ICUs are so far handling the surge
ie; the extremely high numbers of deaths being recorded in hospitals ‘freeing up beds ?

David O'Day · Apr 14, 2020

Brylowes said:
Could there be a darker reason (even partially) as to why ICUs are so far handling the surge
ie; the extremely high numbers of deaths being recorded in hospitals ‘freeing up beds ?

No, that is highly unlikely. The NHS surge plans are at the moment working.

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fernandopartridge · Apr 14, 2020

David O'Day said:
No, that is highly unlikely. The NHS surge plans are at the moment working.

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Yeah, Manchester FT is only at 58% of ICU capacity currently

Flying Fokker · Apr 14, 2020

fernandopartridge said:
For anybody interested, it looks like the HSJ had made their articles open access at the moment (you usually need a subscription to access them). This really is a far more reliable place to go for NHS type news than the MSM:

Exclusive: Nightingale largely empty as ICUs handle surge

A couple of comments that indicate things are currently within capacity....with a thought provoking observation for the over 70’s

Anonymous#CommentAvatarLabelCommented on:14 April 2020 16:07

Totally agree with Anon 15:31. The model elsewhere in the UK is much better - use the nightingales for step-down and the expand critical care at the acute hospitals. London nightingale was always going to be a massive white elephant and is nothing more than a cheap publicity stunt by HMG.

I work at the busiest hospital for COVID cases in the UK (per head of population). Over half our current inpatients are COVID. Yet, we are not only coping, but coping well. We have three empty wards and potential to double our ventilated patient beds before we would have to consider sending patients out to other centres. We have even kept our cancer surgery going at our cold site.

The curve has been flattened, we are coping with the surge, the key now is the long game. The lockdown with ratchet back with younger and fit people allowed to work again, but it is going to be 12 to 18 months until vulnerable/shielded patients will be allowed out. We need a medium term solution to keeping COVID capacity at moderate levels whilst restarting elective services. Everything needs to be balanced.

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Anonymous#CommentAvatarLabelCommented on:14 April 2020 15:31

Ok, but with several million pounds of kit then if it were being used to offload the post ICU patients that would be low risk, and would allow acute trusts to better support their ICUs.
Otherwise they really are white elephants. This is where the Northern Nightingale model is much smarter.

SkyBlueDom26 · Apr 14, 2020

fernandopartridge said:
Another 813 hospital deaths as of 5pm yesterday

5252 more positive tests from 11789 tested, not very clear about the parameters for the data though, i.e. is that 5252 from that figure of 11789 or from the cumulative figure?

Either way, I don't think lockdown should end any time soon even though I reckon the govt want to go that way (hence the OBR report that nobody asked for)

Deffo needs to be 3-6 weeks longer before we somewhat start loosening but if it goes on for months and months more people will die from the long term effects (job losses, depression) it’s hard to find a balance for the long term thinking

Flying Fokker · Apr 14, 2020

SkyBlueDom26 said:
Deffo needs to be 3-6 weeks longer before we somewhat start loosening but if it goes on for months and months more people will die from the long term effects (job losses, depression) it’s hard to find a balance for the long term thinking

You’re a few pages ahead of me! We’d be in shit street if that scenario pans out. Although suggestions that the economy could contract by 35% is one of the forecasts.

David O'Day · Apr 14, 2020

SkyBlueDom26 said:
Deffo needs to be 3-6 weeks longer before we somewhat start loosening but if it goes on for months and months more people will die from the long term effects (job losses, depression) it’s hard to find a balance for the long term thinking

More people will not die from any long term economic effects than will die from the virus.

It's up to the government to stimulate the economy and as they don't understand demand I fear they will fail 1

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fernandopartridge · Apr 14, 2020

David O'Day said:
More people will not die from any long term economic effects than will die from the virus.

It's up to the government to stimulate the economy and as they don't understand demand I fear they will fail 1

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Or is it an implicit admittance by the usual tory way of doing things that is what will happen?

Grendel · Apr 14, 2020

SkyBlueDom26 said:
Deffo needs to be 3-6 weeks longer before we somewhat start loosening but if it goes on for months and months more people will die from the long term effects (job losses, depression) it’s hard to find a balance for the long term thinking

Correct and that’s why we have governments making tough calls not “experts” on keyboard with twitter and pretty graphs as their armoury

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