Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (196 Viewers)

[Deleted member 5849]

Im just being lazy. I’ve seen lots of heat and little light. The one serious accusation I’ve seen backed by a screenshot of the report is the Watson thing which for me doesn’t stack up to how it’s being reported and how CVD describes it. This naturally makes me want to see the source for the other serious accusations. The only other stuff I’ve seen online has been of the level of “trots” and “fat cow” so if there’s evidence of racism I’d like to see it.

As always if you’re not immediately outraged because you’re told to be you must be some nefarious actor.

There is an allegation head office secretly diverted money to back up the defensive campaigns of right leaning MPs in the 2017 election, rather than Corbyn's desire for going on the offensive in other seats. That's where I got to and, on the surface, that doesn't look great.

On the plus side, the new leader's a lawyer, so ought to be able to decipher things fairly well!

 

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[clint van damme]

In his defence (and I haven't got past skimming the first 70 pages, so yet to reach the meaty stuff! I still have work to do ) I suspect he means stuff like calling them 'trots' and the like rather than racism.

Dawn Butler was referred to directly as pubehead.
There's also talk of shooting people and burning people.
Ok, that can go down as banter but is that how you should be talking about one lot of colleagues to another lot of colleagues? Especially in tradable communication.
I'll put my next reply in the leadership thread so not to take this thread off on another tangent.

 

[shmmeee]

There is a lot of debate about this particular quote as there appears to be varying versions (whether the other version is a crop or from later on in the report I don’t know)

That said.... from the few bits I’ve read so far - misogyny, intolerance and yes it would appear ‘racism’ (if not a total intolerance of MP’s or staff working from any ethnic background) is endemic.

To be honest - it’s a disgrace from top to bottom. As a fee paying member I did not sign up for my money to be used in this way.... pretty sure tens of thousands of not more few the same.

There’s two versions I’ve seen, that’s the full one, this is the edited one that appears elsewhere in the report:


Which is not a direct quote, but has been cut down and editorialised to make a point which having seen the full quote seems not generous to say the least.

And if that level of misreporting is happening then I want to see the source for the other stuff. Because a lot of it seems to boil down to “these people were mean, the person they’re mean about is a woman, therefore misogyny” or similar.

Frankly the news some parts of the party didn’t like each other isn’t a shocking revelation. Neither is the news that in private chats people are mean about co workers.

I’m more interested in evidence of actual things that were done to sabotage the party, otherwise it’s just another factional bun fight and I’ll ignore it like all the others.

 

[Ian1779]

Apologies, you're right I have misread the quote but There's a plenty of worrying stuff in there.

However, referring directly to a black woman as pubehead is overtly racist and definitely beyond being mean.
I'm going off on one because the report is appalling. Starmer has a huge job on his hands to navigate the party through this.

For balance, in.my opinion, Corbyn doesn't come out well from what I've read. When you're head honcho you have to take responsibility for what happens during your tenure

Yes when you head up an organisation you are culpable.... but when you are being directly undermined to the extent that is evident here.... and it being hidden from you for what reason??

I want to see people expelled, fired and maybe even sued here.

 

[shmmeee]

Dawn Butler was referred to directly as pubehead.
There's also talk of shooting people and burning people.
Ok, that can go down as banter but is that how you should be talking about one lot of colleagues to another lot of colleagues? Especially in tradable communication.
I'll put my next reply in the leadership thread so not to take this thread off on another tangent.

Again, just looked up the pube head thing and pro Corbyn blogs are reporting it as about Katy Clark and not Dawn Butler.

Very quickly we’re back to “colleagues shouldn’t be mean about other colleagues behind their back on private group chats”, are we seriously saying that if we leaked left wing group chats there wouldn’t be mean stuff about Blairites? Zarah Sultana publicly said she’d be happy to see Blair die for example. That’s just normal Labour infighting.

Don’t get me wrong. The fact it’s been leaked means those involved on both sides should be gone. I’d imagine their position is untenable for those in the chat and those that leaked the report unredacted have brought massive legal trouble onto the party and should be gone as well. If there’s any evidence of more serious actions then the full force of the law needs to be brought against them.

 

[Astute]

Just read what I said ffs.
The more series cases show the symptoms I mentioned, as clearly shortness of breath is something you'd want to seek medical advice on. Hence why they're the official advice.
I said the assertion that everybody (which suggests that there is no consistency at all in what symptoms people report) shows different symptoms is anecdotal and not clearly proven, especially as most of these people will be untested for COVID.

Read what you say?

Had enough of reading what you say. You are full of shit. Had enough of reading bullshit from you.

So why didn't you pull NW up? He said he knows someone who had the same symptoms as Boris. It got ignored by all of you with an agenda to character assassinate Boris. The worse thing is he doesn't need any help.

It also undeniably shows how you constantly attack posts from myself for no rea6sin. Just like I have said for years. You follow me around like a bad smell.

And worse of all this isn't a subject ti bullshit about. It has taken the lives of countless thousands of people. But you keep using it for point scoring.

Don't worry. Won't reply to any of your bullshit ever again.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

care homes are the biggest issue here, it’s horrible- it literally wipes out the whole place. They’re included in the deaths here (I think).

2099 care home facilities have had an outbreak. One can only guess at the number

 

[Astute]

Im just being lazy. I’ve seen lots of heat and little light. The one serious accusation I’ve seen backed by a screenshot of the report is the Watson thing which for me doesn’t stack up to how it’s being reported and how CVD describes it. This naturally makes me want to see the source for the other serious accusations. The only other stuff I’ve seen online has been of the level of “trots” and “fat cow” so if there’s evidence of racism I’d like to see it.

As always if you’re not immediately outraged because you’re told to be you must be some nefarious actor.

Racism is inexcusable.

But the problem we have is many take the piss. Call a white person a fat cow and it is OK. Call a black person a fat cow and they shout racism. Not only is it wrong but it creates problems trying to stamp out racism. It gives those with a racist agenda ammunition. It is as bad as those who counter racist remarks with saying their opponents or whatever it is are also racists so make out it isn't so bad.

It is a subject that shouldn't be used for point scoring. The sad thing is it is used frequently.

 

[Astute]

Some good news this morning.

Princess Beatrice had to call her wedding off due to COVID19. She’s announced that the rearranged wedding next year will be much bigger, more extravagant and more expensive than originally planned, in order to raise the nation’s spirits and give us something to look forward to while we’re locked down.

The NHS is badly underfunded. It has led to the deaths of many. So to cheer us up a nobody from the royal family will have an extravagant wedding?

FFS all sense of realism has evaporated.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Read what you say?

Had enough of reading what you say. You are full of shit. Had enough of reading bullshit from you.

So why didn't you pull NW up? He said he knows someone who had the same symptoms as Boris. It got ignored by all of you with an agenda to character assassinate Boris. The worse thing is he doesn't need any help.

It also undeniably shows how you constantly attack posts from myself for no rea6sin. Just like I have said for years. You follow me around like a bad smell.

And worse of all this isn't a subject ti bullshit about. It has taken the lives of countless thousands of people. But you keep using it for point scoring.

Don't worry. Won't reply to any of your bullshit ever again.

Good, I can't be arsed conversing with you either you petulant child.

 

[clint van damme]

5live with a big report on the care home situation
Heart breaking what's happening.

 

[shmmeee]

Racism is inexcusable.

But the problem we have is many take the piss. Call a white person a fat cow and it is OK. Call a black person a fat cow and they shout racism. Not only is it wrong but it creates problems trying to stamp out racism. It gives those with a racist agenda ammunition. It is as bad as those who counter racist remarks with saying their opponents or whatever it is are also racists so make out it isn't so bad.

It is a subject that shouldn't be used for point scoring. The sad thing is it is used frequently.

What I’ve seen is there’s generally two “levels” of racism, one everyone agrees is racism (calling black people w*gs or Asians p**i for example), and one more subtle that people argue over and seems to expand and contract based on who committed it. Stuff like calling a black woman ugly for (a bad) example, I’ve seen people say “that plays into the stereotypes of black women being ugly and therefore is racist” and others say “I’d call them ugly whatever their skin colour so it’s not racism”.

Similarly the slippery slope argument around say “you can’t say Islam has an issue with terrorism because then you’re saying all followers of Islam are terrorists”.

This second form is more nebulous to define and can be very much “I know it when I see it” which makes the rules harder to know ahead of time and feel unfair.

It’s interesting as a white guy to sit and pontificate about, it’s nice to have that luxury, but very hard for those that are definitely feeing prejudice with no clear way to explain why.

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

 

[PVA]

It's a good job that the government turned down the offer of 5,000 ready sourced ventilators in favour of asking Dyson and JCB - two big Tory donors - to make some for them.

Oh wait.




Fucking scandalous.

Yet still people defend them.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

No uproar about her appointment in the media at all.

Little uproar in the media about the leaked Labour report which clearly shows antisemitism was being weaponised.
No uproar about the antisemitic cartoon sanctioned by George Osbourne.

It's almost as if people don't care about it any more. Strange that.

Because it did it’s job and they now need to find a fresh straw man to take down Starmer in 2024

 

[fernandopartridge]

Some colleagues of mine have been working 7 days to support the opening of the Manchester Nightingale. It'll be used as a step-down from ICU (that's palliative care or rehabilitation). It has 650ish beds and they're assuming they'll need 140 of them by mid May. Not sure yet whether all of the capacity will ever be used.

Ironically, the location is Manchester Central (formerly known as GMEX) where the Tories have held their conference for the last few years.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Some colleagues of mine have been working 7 days to support the opening of the Manchester Nightingale. It'll be used as a step-down from ICU (that's palliative care or rehabilitation). It has 650ish beds and they're assuming they'll need 140 of them by mid May. Not sure yet whether all of the capacity will ever be used.

Ironically, the location is Manchester Central (formerly known as GMEX) where the Tories have held their conference for the last few years.

In New York they converted Hillary Clinton’s ‘victory party’ venue from 2016

 

[rob9872]

What I’ve seen is there’s generally two “levels” of racism, one everyone agrees is racism (calling black people w*gs or Asians p**i for example), and one more subtle that people argue over and seems to expand and contract based on who committed it. Stuff like calling a black woman ugly for (a bad) example, I’ve seen people say “that plays into the stereotypes of black women being ugly and therefore is racist” and others say “I’d call them ugly whatever their skin colour so it’s not racism”.

Similarly the slippery slope argument around say “you can’t say Islam has an issue with terrorism because then you’re saying all followers of Islam are terrorists”.

This second form is more nebulous to define and can be very much “I know it when I see it” which makes the rules harder to know ahead of time and feel unfair.

It’s interesting as a white guy to sit and pontificate about, it’s nice to have that luxury, but very hard for those that are definitely feeing prejudice with no clear way to explain why.

Racism has many levels, some of them perceived others more obvious, but it's what someone feels that you can never know until you're in their shoes. I've heard before the argument 'how can you know, you're white?', I guess as we become more educated on the subject many of us can now understand that better and empathise, but without actually knowing. The one I found hardest to digest was the term 'white privilege' as there are plenty of people discriminated against for other reasons and similarly many brought up in equal hardship, but the best definition of it I read, was that people accept there are white people who have an equally difficult struggle as black or Asian people, but that the difference was, they had never been discriminated against or brought in hardship simply because of the colour of their skin and that's hard to argue with.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

It's a good job that the government turned down the offer of 5,000 ready sourced ventilators in favour of asking Dyson and JCB - two big Tory donors - to make some for them.

Oh wait.




Fucking scandalous.

Yet still people defend them.

The daily UK Government COVID19 email update says that the "specifications are still being worked on" whatever that means.

Sorry thats not actually right, the govt are giving out the specs in an appeal to companies to make them. This was this morning, have we not got past this part yet?

Coronavirus (COVID-19): ventilator supply specification

 

[SkyBlueCharlie9]

Just reading about this on the BBC website and apparently many EU countries have too much PPE as a result of the scheme.

Don't think any country can have too much PPE.

 

[skyblueinBaku]

Some good news this morning.

Princess Beatrice had to call her wedding off due to COVID19. She’s announced that the rearranged wedding next year will be much bigger, more extravagant and more expensive than originally planned, in order to raise the nation’s spirits and give us something to look forward to while we’re locked down.

Good God, that's crazy. Does she really think that with thousands dying, people will be looking forward to the very expensive wedding of a royal nobody?:emoji_rolling_eyes:

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Good God, that's crazy. Does she really think that with thousands dying, people will be looking forward to the very expensive wedding of a royal nobody?:emoji_rolling_eyes:

Saw it in a couple of the papers this am, they literally use "to cheer the nation up" and phrases like that.

I wonder if Andrew will show up to really give us something to cheer

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Racism has many levels, some of them perceived others more obvious, but it's what someone feels that you can never know until you're in their shoes. I've heard before the argument 'how can you know, you're white?', I guess as we become more educated on the subject many of us can now understand that better and empathise, but without actually knowing. The one I found hardest to digest was the term 'white privilege' as there are plenty of people discriminated against for other reasons and similarly many brought up in equal hardship, but the best definition of it I read, was that people accept there are white people who have an equally difficult struggle as black or Asian people, but that the difference was, they had never been discriminated against or brought in hardship simply because of the colour of their skin and that's hard to argue with.

I think thats a really good post. I guess the best personification of the 'white privilege' thing is Laurence Fox, who kicks off for no apparent reason aside from seemingly being annoyed at non-white people complaining about things he doesn't understand.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Some colleagues of mine have been working 7 days to support the opening of the Manchester Nightingale. It'll be used as a step-down from ICU (that's palliative care or rehabilitation). It has 650ish beds and they're assuming they'll need 140 of them by mid May. Not sure yet whether all of the capacity will ever be used.

Ironically, the location is Manchester Central (formerly known as GMEX) where the Tories have held their conference for the last few years.

I went to 'Fantazia 1997' there with Paul Van Dyk headlining, went on until 6am and I could have done with some care & rehab after that weekend

 

[skybluetony176]

Nurse 'paid ultimate price' for lack of PPE
Tragic loss and possibly avoidable. Questions need answering here.

 

[David O'Day]

5live with a big report on the care home situation
Heart breaking what's happening.

They've just been abandoned, the NHS is also to blame for this.

 

[Astute]

Good, I can't be arsed conversing with you either you petulant child.

Your lies are so obvious the person to agree with you is G. And we all kniw what he is like.

Fair play. Keep up your agenda.

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

I am baffled about the whole mask argument, spain and Italy it seems are using them in order to come out of this lockdown yet we seem adamant they have no effect? Hmm

 

[Brylowes]

It’s the “it could have gone either way” stuff, knowing what we know about this virus had he been taken that close to death then he wouldn’t be out within 48 hours. The problem is though that the man is such a pathological bullshitter and conman that it’s impossible to separate fact from fiction anywhere down the line. Who wouldn’t ask questions with his track record? I’m glad he’s well but my god he’s some liar, and who knows what the actual truth is of how seriously ill he was, and there is nothing wrong in asking.

He also loves the attention, your assessment is a very valid one.

He is also very well known for his tendency to disappear from sight during troublesome times.

I’m really not sure whether this is down to him personally ‘or the likes of Cummings in an exercise of damage limitation.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

He is also very well known for his tendency to disappear from sight during troublesome times.

I’m really not sure whether this is down to him personally ‘or the likes of Cummings in an exercise of damage limitation.

Last thing I heard was that Cummings was isolating after coming down with it. Since that time Peston & Kuennsberg have noticeably had to stop referring to their "senior government source" when reporting things

 

[Ring Of Steel]

I am baffled about the whole mask argument, spain and Italy it seems are using them in order to come out of this lockdown yet we seem adamant they have no effect? Hmm

Its not that "we" seem adamant, a few people in particular do, the same people that would have you believe we've been on point the whole way through this in the way we have handled it. Funnily enough the country most lauded as the place which handled the virus best of all- South Korea- they had to ration them. Yet us and USA, with massive numbers of deaths, constant failures, not supplying PPE, arguably the worst responses in the world- not convinced of their use. I'd ask- who would you believe?

 

[David O'Day]

I'd believe the majority of virologists who point out that while if you use a mask correctly it can help but people dont, they touch them raje them iff, pull them down etc which can make them actually worse and a trap for pathogens.

So if you leave the mask on, hever touch it etc it could help

 

[Ring Of Steel]

I'd believe the majority of virologists who point out that while if you use a mask correctly it can help but people dont, they touch them raje them iff, pull them down etc which can make them actually worse and a trap for pathogens.

So if you leave the mask on, hever touch it etc it could help

very well put, didn't know that- if you get one don't fuck about with it & use it properly

 

[David O'Day]

very well put, didn't know that- if you get one don't fuck about with it & use it properly

Alas people don't so they become a hindrance rather than a help.

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

 

[fernandopartridge]

I am baffled about the whole mask argument, spain and Italy it seems are using them in order to come out of this lockdown yet we seem adamant they have no effect? Hmm

The reason they're coming out of lockdown or talking about it is the rate of infection is coming down. It isn't because they've bought a load of masks.

It would be a ridiculous proposition to come out of lockdown based on the premise of everybody wearing masks.