Do you want to discuss boring politics? (17 Viewers)
- Thread starter mrtrench
- Start date
Let’s be honest, the further left to the party you go, the more likely you’ll find people that just don’t see anti semitism as being racist.
Same as the further right you go in the Tories the more likely you’ll find people that see stuff that Braverman and Anderson (when he was there) say as not racist/Islamophobic
Starmer hasn’t really proven to be a man of principle (can change his opinion depending on which way the winds blowing), but his attempts to change this within the party should be commended, even if that means there’s some collateral damage ie overly harsh in circumstances
I wish Sunak had done the same with the right of the party when he became leader. I reckon he’ll see his failure to do so and appointment of Braverman to placate the harder right, as one of his biggest regrets
Grendel
Well-Known Member
If you seriously believe that either Corbyn or Abbot are racist, I've got a bridge that you might like to buy.
The simple truth, that you're struggling to admit, a bit like Keir, is that if you're on the left of the party you are no longer welcome, and Starmer will find any excuse to kick you out.
In the meantime, if there's the possibility of a single vote in it, Starmer will welcome in right wing loons like Elphicke.
Broad church? Who are you trying to kid!
Labour commissioned its own independent report into racism in the party, the Forde report.
Here's the author of that report at a loss as to why Abbot has not had the whip reinstated. His point; others have done similar or worse, apologised and are now back in the fold.
‘Others have had it restored after worse things’: Forde report author says, as calls grow to return whip to Diane Abbott
The author of the Labour Party’s Forde report has said he is 'at a loss’ as to why Diane Abbott has not had the Labour whip restored.www.lbc.co.uk
Abbot has been accused of racism and more than one example exists. There is little doubt she is anti white
duffer
Well-Known Member
BRB? Not sure where your going with Sultana, but obviously she had to go through the trigger process.
Come on now, you're not seriously telling me that there's a concerted effort to either expel/deselect or refuse to select left wing candidates and members.
Sit next to Ken Roach, like the wrong tweet, or stand on a picket line (God forbid), and you're history.
Labour is patently not a broad church, unless you're from the right or a Tory defector doing it for shits and giggles.
'Labour's selections scandal' needs a full inquiry led by a KC - nothing less will do
'Labour Selections Scandal' needs an inquiry says Momentum, as the controversy over alleged rigging of voting continues
www.thecanary.co
duffer
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry mate, but I can't let the anti-Semitism thing go unchallenged.
It's the left who have always stood against all forms of racism. If you're conflating criticism of the state of Israel with anti-semitism, then you're not thinking straight.
As for whether Starmer moving the party to the right is a good thing, if you're centrist leaning towards centre right, you probably think it is.
If, like me, you were a Labour member because you saw it as a force for much-needed change, then you probably think it isn't.
Is the left of the party anti-Semitic, and did Corbyn really try to slow down the resolution of anti-Semitic complaints? Read on...
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Yeah, on both counts I think there's a nugget of truth (there always is), claims of racism are often overblown in every direction, but I see strong "Islam is a religion not a race" vibe with "Zionism not Judaism" stuff from some on the left. Makes it hard to say have a genuine opinion that some Islamic practices (sex segregation for example) aren't compatible with modern Britain, or that Israel is in fact committing war crimes, without being labelled a racist. And if you strongly want to argue that point then you will almost certainly find yourself allying and defending the actual racists who inhabit the same space for different reasons. And after a while you run out of fucks to give and discount any criticism of those 'on your side'.
The fallout if the Tories ever tried to do what Starmer had done in AS with islamophobia would be stupendous. And that's why they try very hard to never have that reckoning.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
No it's not criticism of Israel that's the real problem, and there Israel certainly plays the AS card with abandon.
It's the anti-capitalist strand of the left that gets itself in trouble. When I was a young socialist with early access to the internet I got into the Rothschild conspiracies and the like without a thought about Jews, despite them being very well known antisemitic tropes. The crooked nosed banker like the one in the mural Corbyn defended. The insinuation that elites are controlling the media/economy. That last one is tricky cos it is a well known antisemitic trope, it's also true but not about jews, but also there's a lot of overlap on the conspiratorial left and conspiratorial right with people who jumped from "elites control the media/economy/banking" to "Jews are the elites we're talking about" very easily.
Just to be clear this isn’t conflating to criticism of Israel, especially recently, a lot of which is fully justified, with anti semitism. There have been a number of Labour MPs that resigned in recent years due to what they saw as regular and unchallenged anti semitism. Some of those mightve been chancers but some weren’t. 100s of member complaints, suspensions and warnings. The EHRC report etc etc
I agree that it’s usually Labour and the left who make a stand against racism and the protection of minorities rights but as I said, the further left you go it’s almost like there’s blind spot or at least more of a tolerance to certain anti semetic comments and views, like they’re not actually seen as racism
There was obviously a problem in this area with certain elements within the party, which are now being addressed and that is what I was commending. Starmers general leadership and labour under him leave a lot of unanswered questions for me personally but I wasn’t commenting on that. I also didn’t comment on Corbyn but had questions about him and his leadership, however, these are now irrelevant
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Weirdly of seven MPs that resigned in 2019, they all went on to form the pro-EU Independent Group for Change, only one of them mentioned institutional antisemitism as a reason for resigning (Luciana Berger). After that they pretty much all got corporate lobbyist jobs.
Luciana Berger has subsequently rejoined the party via the Liberal Democrats.
I might’ve missed some but Ian Austin, frank field, Ivan Lewis, Louise Elmann and Margaret hodge all cited anti semitism and it’s handling when resigning (had to Google as I’d forgotten a couple). Some lords as well. Agree there were some chancers in that pro EU lot but Berger returning suggests she’s seen improvements within the party when it comes to anti semitism
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jimmyhillsfanclub
Well-Known Member
Wouldn't surprise me if she re-joins "Labour Friends of Israel" too..........she's already been enjoying the delegation jollies in Jerusalem etc.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
There are many strands of the religious Jewish community who believe this, its not antisemitic to say this at all.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
That’s not the point. There’s valid criticisms of Islam, but the phrase is also overused by people who just don’t like Muslims.
There is a problem on the conspiratorial left with antisemitism that’s nothing to do with Zionism or Israel. Just good old fashioned Jews control the world conspiracies. And Corbyn, for all his good points, is a fully paid up member of the conspiratorial left.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
There’s a real problem on the left to not spot bigotry in its own ranks because “we’re the good guys”, but activism is these areas attracts people who just don’t like the people they blame for their groups issues. Be it men, (((bankers))), whites, the view is the group is privileged so its open season and therefore bigotry is justified.
But that’s the exact same thinking on the racist right. They believe it’s just to attack the people they do because of their perceived issues with the group.
But that’s the exact same thinking on the racist right. They believe it’s just to attack the people they do because of their perceived issues with the group.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
Jews controlling the world nonsense is nothing to do with anti zionism. That pre dates Israel.
Of course people will use the actions of Israel as a gateway for antisemitism but that still doesn't make your statement correct.
Zionism is not Judaism is a firmly held believe of many Jewish people, that's a fact.
In fact I'm fairly sure that conflating the 2 is itself deemed antisemitic.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Made this point a few times but the first anti-Zionist were Jews and they still exist. They see the creation of the Israeli state as a direct threat to god. These Jews still exist and live in Israel, they’re the Jewish sects that don’t have to do national service, they were the Hasidic Jews who’ve been protesting the invasion of Gaza in Israel since day one. In most cases there ancestors never left what is known as Israel, they lived largely in piece with their Arab neighbours, Gaza and the West Bank weren’t annexed and the Israeli state didn’t exist. This conflict has been created by men like Netanyahu for decades and quite deliberately. The last few weeks especially the veil has been slipping with talks of Israel occupying Gaza alongside a puppet Muslim government, fortunately the Muslim countries Netanyahu has touted as possible “partners” have told him to swivel.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
The problem here is that there are genuine concerns from Jews about rhetoric on the left, and there’s FUD bollocks from the Israel lobby, and they all get dismissed out of hand by the left.
You’ve done it here. Despite me saying twice it’s not about Israel, you’ve brought it back to Israel. Why? Why not accept that some on the left can be antisemitic at worst and contribute to spreading or ignoring the spreading of antisemitic theories and tropes at best?
It feels sometimes like for some on the left it’s a moral position and accepting anyone on the left can’t hold bad views pops that and immediately makes them as bad as the right, who are the bad people. And it leads to some on the left going too far and not being called on it.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
You explicitly mentioned zionism, that makes it about Israel.
I get your point but the phrase you used wasn't really appropriate for the argument you were trying to get across.
And Ive called out people on the left on here when I think theyve been antisemitic, for example Chris Williamson but also defended people on the left when I think it's been weaponised against them, for example Marc Wadsworth.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
I think there’s people who use that phrase as cover like I think there’s those on the right do with Islam when really it’s about brown people. It’s not quite the same but a significant number of Jews have a loose definition of Zionism they subscribe to.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
Well as someone who believes in a 2 state solution I'm technically a zionist!
Why is a crooked nose unique?
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
The Happy Merchant
The Happy Merchant is a very common antisemitic meme popularized by the alt right, featuring a person with exaggerated stereotypically Jewish features and grasping hands, meant to convey a “greedy Jew.”
Isn't that being racist about anyone with a hook nose,be they Muslim or westerner?The Happy Merchant
The Happy Merchant is a very common antisemitic meme popularized by the alt right, featuring a person with exaggerated stereotypically Jewish features and grasping hands, meant to convey a “greedy Jew.”www.adl.org
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Are we really arguing “big nosed Jew” isn’t a thing? No one said racism had to be logically consistent.
I genuinely looked at that mural and I just thought a masonic lodge!
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
Robert Fico - Prime Minister of Slovakia has just been shot four times. In a critical condition.
Bit of a dodgy character. Corrupt, accusations that he has had journalists killed etc. Then again he is against immigration and the covid vaccine, so fuck knows what the motivation was behind the shooting. The BBC are concentrating on 'hate speech' though.
Bit of a dodgy character. Corrupt, accusations that he has had journalists killed etc. Then again he is against immigration and the covid vaccine, so fuck knows what the motivation was behind the shooting. The BBC are concentrating on 'hate speech' though.
Tolerant of russia in the report I picked up?
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
Yeah, that is a significant possibility, but there is so much there it can get blamed on anything. My missus is Slovak and she says generally everyone hates Fico as he's seen as evil. She actually said it was surprising it has only just happened. Corruption everywhere, and don't even get started on where the EU funds go as this forum will have a meltdown.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
They’ve just given a press conference. Sounds like he’s out of surgery but seriously ill. Hopefully he can pull through.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Give it time
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
And yet Boris defecting would still make more sense than Elphicke.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
That's your idea? Another launch?
Ian1779
Well-Known Member
That's your idea? Another launch?
Aside from the fact I think he’s a useless twonk, if I looked at ‘pledge number 5’ around teaching how does he expect that this will just happen? If he think 6500 new teachers will fix the problem he’s even more of an idiot than I thought.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
It’ll fix a problem
It’s a pledge card, not a manifesto. He’s not literally going to put a one line bill in front of Parliament is he?