Do you want to discuss boring politics? (35 Viewers)

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I think like many of us who desire intelligence at the heart of government can’t quite understand

starmer bad
Johnson good

Didn’t say it made Johnson better but the perception is

Starmer- wet lettuce technocrat

Johnson- affable one of the lads clown

The same happens in Scotland when Johnson makes one off trips there and thinks it makes a difference. Again the perception is

Sturgeon - sensible mature anti-Tory

Johnson - posh git

Perception is reality

 

---

[Grendel]

Didn’t say it made Johnson better but the perception is

Starmer- wet lettuce technocrat

Johnson- affable one of the lads clown

The same happens in Scotland when Johnson makes one off trips there and thinks it makes a difference. Again the perception is

Sturgeon - sensible mature anti-Tory

Johnson - posh git

Perception is reality

Starmer isn’t even recognisable in Scotland

 

[shmmeee]

Starmer isn’t even recognisable in Scotland

Weird. It’s almost like he’s an opposition leader before a general election has happened. Huh.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Starmer isn’t even recognisable in Scotland

Got that right. I do rate Anas Sarwar though.

 

[Deleted member 9744]

This man is pathetic

I can't understand why he is seen as pathetic and Johnson as some great leader. Please explain. Johnson comes across to me as incompetent and totally lacking in sincerity. I don't find him funny or inspiring. What is it I am missing?

 

[Deleted member 9744]

I think like many of us who desire intelligence at the heart of government can’t quite understand

starmer bad
Johnson good

Totally. Competence and intelligence seems to be seen as weak and pathetic now.

 

[shmmeee]

The more the extremes go off about Starmer the more confident I am in him TBH.

I still think Johnson’s act is wearing thin and when he goes people will want the balm of boringness like Biden. I also think like Biden if he got in he’d end up being on the most most radical PMs we’ve had.

 

[Ian1779]

I can't understand why he is seen as pathetic and Johnson as some great leader. Please explain. Johnson comes across to me as incompetent and totally lacking in sincerity. I don't find him funny or inspiring. What is it I am missing?

He doesn’t stand for anything. He’s a weather vane and doesn’t appear to have any conviction on many things. He’s basically sat there and let people say that under 25’s are feckless and workshy… and this is the demographic that leans heavily to his party.

That said, in his defence, that whole BBC thing was a setup, designed to humiliate him.

 

[shmmeee]

He doesn’t stand for anything. He’s a weather vane and doesn’t appear to have any conviction on many things. He’s basically sat there and let people say that under 25’s are feckless and workshy… and this is the demographic that leans heavily to his party.

That said, in his defence, that whole BBC thing was a setup, designed to humiliate him.

This is such bollocks. He was at a listening exercise and you’re criticising him for *checks notes* listening.

 

[Grendel]

Totally. Competence and intelligence seems to be seen as weak and pathetic now.

Regarding intelligence a core element of the voting north wanted Brexit and he devised a ridiculous strategy to clearly get a second referendum and lose it - it was a fudged strategy and a disaster

 

[Ian1779]

This is such bollocks. He was at a listening exercise and you’re criticising him for *checks notes* listening.

A listening exercise that he *needed* to do on camera?

No it’s not. The fact that you yet again are tying yourself in knots trying to defend him convinces me he’s not the right guy even further.

 

[Deleted member 9744]

This is such bollocks. He was at a listening exercise and you’re criticising him for *checks notes* listening.

Exactly mate. This really annoys me. It seems people just want bombast from our leaders.

The media will always make Labour leaders look weak and undermine them. It's shocking that how one was eating a bacon sandwich determined a General Election.

But I still struggle to see how most people can't see through Johnson. Hos charm and charisma doesn't work for me, and I would rather be lead by someone who tries to listen and make informed and sensible decisions.

 

[Ian1779]

Exactly mate. This really annoys me. It seems people just want bombast from our leaders.

The media will always make Labour leaders look weak and undermine them. It's shocking that how one was eating a bacon sandwich determined a General Election.

But I still struggle to see how most people can't see through Johnson. Hos charm and charisma doesn't work for me, and I would rather be lead by someone who tries to listen and make informed and sensible decisions.

You’re missing the point. I’m not comparing him to Johnson who is a complete fucking fraud.

He does not listen, he just appears to give the notion of listening.

Several times between 2017 and early 2019 Starmer was interviewed and said that the Labour Party must honour the Brexit referendum or it risks the party being torn apart and rejected by the electorate. He then proceeded to champion a policy that did just that. This is why people don’t trust him.

 

[Grendel]

Exactly mate. This really annoys me. It seems people just want bombast from our leaders.

The media will always make Labour leaders look weak and undermine them. It's shocking that how one was eating a bacon sandwich determined a General Election.

But I still struggle to see how most people can't see through Johnson. Hos charm and charisma doesn't work for me, and I would rather be lead by someone who tries to listen and make informed and sensible decisions.

It wasn’t a listening exercise it was him trying to engage with voters in a place that would always vote Labour and he looks more of a Tory than Johnson

He looks uncomfortable with the common northern man it was a car crash

 

[Deleted member 9744]

You’re missing the point. I’m not comparing him to Johnson who is a complete fucking fraud.

He does not listen, he just appears to give the notion of listening.

Several times between 2017 and early 2019 Starmer was interviewed and said that the Labour Party must honour the Brexit referendum or it risks the party being torn apart and rejected by the electorate. He then proceeded to champion a policy that did just that. This is why people don’t trust him.

Clearly he was against Brexit (he's intelligent) and called for a second referendum. Incidentally at one stage I was standing next to him in one of the anti-Brexit marches. Are you forgetting that Corbyn was effectively supporting Brexit.

Is he right on everything? Of course not but he is far better than Corbyn or any other senior Labour figure I can think of.

But hey let's criticise this guy rather than highlighting the real problems, which us this incompetent Government.

 

[Grendel]

The one thing Corbyn had in 2017 was an ability to go places and talk to crowds and get engagement - in a different way Major did as well in 92 when the odds were heavily against him. Starmer looks like the people he addressed are beneath him

 

[Grendel]

Clearly he was against Brexit (he's intelligent) and called for a second referendum. Incidentally at one stage I was standing next to him in one of the anti-Brexit marches. Are you forgetting that Corbyn was effectively supporting Brexit.

Is he right on everything? Of course not but he is far better than Corbyn or any other senior Labour figure I can think of.

But hey let's criticise this guy rather than highlighting the real problems, which us this incompetent Government.

The first few words in this answer your question as to why he’s a disaster zone

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

The one thing Corbyn had in 2017 was an ability to go places and talk to crowds and get engagement - in a different way Major did as well in 92 when the odds were heavily against him. Starmer looks like the people he addressed are beneath him

Wow just wow all perception

 

[wingy]

‘What do the northerners like? If I go to a sporting event they will like me’

Whippet and Pigeon racing?

 

[Grendel]

Wow just wow all perception

Everything is about selling yourself as a leader of people. Not a forensic evaluation. Theresa May isn’t a stupid person but was useless at trying to be personable. All leaders have to have engage abilities

 

[oakey]

The reasons given by participants for not trusting Labour are both illogical and disingenuous IMO.
Illogical -
- didn't like Corbyn = he's gone.
- Labour are spenders, Tories cut = duh, have they not seen the money tories are spraying everywhere, much of it to their mates.
Disingenuous -
I'd really like to vote Labour = no you just feel bad about voting Tory and you're looking for excuses
Can't trust Labour = but you trust the Tories! Why? What have they done for you?
If you're a conservative for clear, rational reasons then fine, go for it.
Conservative thinking is principled and practical at it's best. Alternatively you can believe conservative governments are just more pragmatic and better managers. Fine again. But these people in the focus group just seem irritable and muddled. Reminded me of "Twelve angry men".
A critical mass of people are trapped in a weird culture of cognitive dissonance. They think with their feelings and have never learned critical thinking skills.

 

[Deleted member 9744]

The one thing Corbyn had in 2017 was an ability to go places and talk to crowds and get engagement - in a different way Major did as well in 92 when the odds were heavily against him. Starmer looks like the people he addressed are beneath him

But that's the problem. We go for leaders who are popular and charismatic rather than competent. Yes Johnson and Corbyn (and Trump) have people who will support them no matter what they do, but they are hopeless at doing things. For some reason many people find those sort of people attractive, but I just don't get it.

I know people who are fanatical about Corbyn and also one who are about Johnson. Despite the report on anti sematism they refuse to believe Corbyn could be in any way wrong. Despite all the horrendous mistakes during the pandemic they say Johnson is doing as well as he could. They have no objectivity. Both have a cult like status amongst their supporters.

I'd rather have a boring but competent person in charge. I prefer to get entertainment from other areas of my life.

 

[Ian1779]

Clearly he was against Brexit (he's intelligent) and called for a second referendum. Incidentally at one stage I was standing next to him in one of the anti-Brexit marches. Are you forgetting that Corbyn was effectively supporting Brexit.

Is he right on everything? Of course not but he is far better than Corbyn or any other senior Labour figure I can think of.

But hey let's criticise this guy rather than highlighting the real problems, which us this incompetent Government.

I’m not forgetting anything. I voted for Remain, it lost and that should have been the end of it on June 24th 2016, no matter how shit of a decision I thought it was.
Corbyn’s position originally was to respect the result, to imply he was some kind of secret Brexit mole to help deliver a hard Brexit is just pure FBPE fan fiction looking for reasons as to why Remain lost. Yet to this day the Remain camp have never really looked or understood the reasons why Brexit was voted for… too fucking arrogant to listen.

I tell you why I dislike Starmer, he hung my profession out to dry during the pandemic, and he the poorest leader Labour have had in my lifetime in my opinion.

But again, you’re missing point in regards to Johnson, by criticising Starmer it does not mean you are excusing the Tories, or supporting what they are doing. This country is going to suffer further under their governance.

 

[Grendel]

But that's the problem. We go for leaders who are popular and charismatic rather than competent. Yes Johnson and Corbyn (and Trump) have people who will support them no matter what they do, but they are hopeless at doing things. For some reason many people find those sort of people attractive, but I just don't get it.

I know people who are fanatical about Corbyn and also one who are about Johnson. Despite the report on anti sematism they refuse to believe Corbyn could be in any way wrong. Despite all the horrendous mistakes during the pandemic they say Johnson is doing as well as he could. They have no objectivity. Both have a cult like status amongst their supporters.

I'd rather have a boring but competent person in charge. I prefer to get entertainment from other areas of my life.

How do you know Starmer is a competent politician when his one strategy to date was a massive part in costing Labour seats across the north

 

[Grendel]

I’m not forgetting anything. I voted for Remain, it lost and that should have been the end of it on June 24th 2016, no matter how shit of a decision I thought it was.
Corbyn’s position originally was to respect the result, to imply he was some kind of secret Brexit mole to help deliver a hard Brexit is just pure FBPE fan fiction looking for reasons as to why Remain lost. Yet to this day the Remain camp have never really looked or understood the reasons why Brexit was voted for… too fucking arrogant to listen.

I tell you why I dislike Starmer, he hung my profession out to dry during the pandemic, and he the poorest leader Labour have had in my lifetime in my opinion.

But again, you’re missing point in regards to Johnson, by criticising Starmer it does not mean you are excusing the Tories, or supporting what they are doing. This country is going to suffer further under their governance.

He’s labours IDS they need to ditch him

 

[oakey]

If you were on a plane during a storm who would you want as captain, Johnson or Starmer?
If you were on a cruise ship on a lovely day who would you want as entertainment manager, Johnson or Starmer?
Until enough people understand that the country is on the former not the latter our decline will continue.
But hey, our leader is such a great bloke with funny hair so let's enjoy the show.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

You’re missing the point. I’m not comparing him to Johnson who is a complete fucking fraud.

It is noticable however that righties seem a lot less critical of their leaders, whoever they are, than lefties. Righties do play the game a lot better. Johnson's a case in point, loathed by a high proportion of his MPs, and for that matter the older, traditional membership, but they recognise they have to get behind him even if they think he's a cock.

And it's not just Johnson having an uncanny magnetic appeal (that really is intangible!) that wins elections, it's the fact they all sing from the same hymn sheet, cynically or not.

 

[oakey]

Exactly. The Conservative party is the most successful in the whole Western world - at winning elections and keeping their hands on the levers of power.
Not very good at governing though. The country has been in steady decline throughout their history. Nearly all positive changes have been made in the brief periods when Liberals or Labour have been in power or when Conservatives tacked to the centre to maintain power.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Exactly the Conservative party is the most successful in the whole Western world - at winning elections and keeping their hands on the levers of power

It's not even their strategies either. So, Starmer's ineffective, eh? What's not going to make him more effective is if he has to waste his time arguing with his own side, rather than with the people in power!

 

[oakey]

It's not even their strategies either. So, Starmer's ineffective, eh? What's not going to make him more effective is if he has to waste his time arguing with his own side, rather than with the people in power!

Which is precisely why I and many others could never join the Labour party. Too many zealots arguing about rulebooks, Hamas or union block votes.

 

[Northants Sky Blue]

Labour unfortunately seems to face an inherent, recurring problem.

Parties of the left based on progressive ideals have to accommodate many different interest groups under one umbrella.

The Tories seem to only care about winning and many will happily ditch small c conservative, family values etc to grab the coat tails of a populist chancer like Johnson.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

He’s labours IDS they need to ditch him

There needs to be a well timed by election in ‘23 for Burnham to jump in

 

[oakey]

I think a lot of 'lefties' or progressives like the Tories being in power. It gives them something to rail against whilst maintaining some sense of moral superiority and being spared the practical issues of power.
It's this that puts many people off Labour. They "smell" too preachy.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I think a lot of 'lefties' or progressives like the Tories being in power. It gives them something to rail against whilst maintaining some sense of moral superiority and being spared the practical issues of power.
It's this that puts many people off Labour. They "smell" too preachy.

Corbyn's helped moderate me, ironically. My beliefs haven't changed, but I currently see a government totally opposed in philosophy to me, able to do what it wants with impunity. I also see the only time during my life when Britain seemed to have a vague sense of a social conscience, was under Blair and Brown (do I really need to point out the general here, to head off the disruptors pointing out specifics?).

Therefore, pragmatism now rules, here at least.

 

[shmmeee]

Any Labour government is better than any Tory govenrment at the end of the day. I’m not sure you can win from where we were left in 2019, not without an exceptional politician (and I’d call Boris one of those). And Labour don’t have any right now anyway. He needs to steady the ship, detoxify us, and make some of the right moves in public perception on the basics like law and order and patriotism. Most of the public won’t really form an opinion on him until a GE campaign. Probably against Sunak rather than Johnson, which will change things a lot. Corbyn wasn’t really established until 2017.