Do you want to discuss boring politics? (27 Viewers)

[Evo1883]

I note dubed has stepped out of this convo and I’m genuinely sorry to see that, their voice would be valuable but like hill in the racism thread I totally get that they’ve better things to do than have this debate. I think I’ll take that as a hint to leave the topic alone, but that debate needs to be had and resolved before governments mandate the result not after.

Isnt part of the problem with all this that not enough people say what they actually think and we allow policies like this to be implemented without us pushing back .

Not many agree with things like this , and they are being pushed ahead anyway

I don't care what dubed experience is , we are talking about kids as young as 4 .. his feelings don't matter in that case

 

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[shmmeee]

Isnt part of the problem with all this that not enough people say what they actually think and we allow policies like this to be implemented without us pushing back .

Not many agree with things like this , and they are being pushed ahead anyway

I don't care what dubed experience is , we are talking about kids as young as 4 .. his feelings don't matter in that case

Fact is mate we can culture war this shit up and rant at each other or we can listen and understand and hopefully come to a sensible conclusion.

Going in like Nick in a 5-a-side match isn’t helping though.

 

[Evo1883]

Fact is mate we can culture war this shit up and rant at each other or we can listen and understand and hopefully come to a sensible conclusion.

Going in like Nick in a 5-a-side match isn’t helping though.

I can't debate though , I just say it .

There is nothing sensible about this , I'm not alone

 

[Evo1883]

You do not think I was 4 once, and know how it felt?

This is one of those things where you want me to back off and not say what I think ... isn't it

 

[shmmeee]

You do not think I was 4 once, and know how it felt?

Do you think everyone who has experienced gender dysphoria has had the same experience as you?

Do you think everyone who identifies as trans suffers from gender dysphoria?

Do you think we have clear diagnostics for detecting gender dysphoria in children and prescribing the best course of treatment?

 

[Evo1883]

I dont believe at 4 years old you were mentally capable to decide something that would effect your entire future, Be it sexuality or gender

If you want me to fall in line and agree with you I won't

And also , who can remember what they were thinking when they were 4 ? I certainly can't

 

[skybluetony176]

Why do you think the number of girls transitioning has skyrocketed in recent years?

Wider acceptance and understanding in society might have something to do with it. How many children would have felt safe to do this even 10 years ago? School can be brutal for anyone “different”. We had one out gay kid in my year when I was in high school in the 90’s and he was a complete outcast/loner. If anyone did say anything to him it was always with malice so he just used to hide in the corners hoping no one would notice him. That’s no environment for any child in that scenario to develop balanced.
The other reason might be education. There’s information out there now on identity that just wasn’t there even 10 years ago.

 

[skybluetony176]

If that's the case then why do so many people who transition wish they never and want to revert back ?

If they become what they are , then why do they want to change it after surgery?

How many? What’s the percentages? It’s very difficult to get the surgery. You can’t just walk in of the street on a whim and say lob these off.

 

[shmmeee]

Wider acceptance and understanding in society might have something to do with it. How many children would have felt safe to do this even 10 years ago? School can be brutal for anyone “different”. We had one out gay kid in my year when I was in high school in the 90’s and he was a complete outcast/loner. If anyone did say anything to him it was always with malice so he just used to hide in the corners hoping no one would notice him. That’s no environment for any child in that scenario to develop balanced.
The other reason might be education. There’s information out there now on identity that just wasn’t there even 10 years ago.

If it was acceptance wouldn’t you expect a similar pattern to gay and bi people who went though the same acceptance phase?

Why are transitioners who show no early signs of dysphoria often clustered and why do they present in girls at adolescence and in boys earlier or in middle age? Why has the ratio of boys and girls flipped because of “acceptance”?

Historically tomboys have been far more socially acceptable than feminine boys.

Where are all the middle aged trans men?

 

[shmmeee]

Most yes.

100%

Very, very difficult situation. Handle with great care, not be rushed, and needs very firm legal and medical oversight. But that's not we were discussing. I haven't seen anything about schools acting as conduit for gender reassignment and other treatment. What I have seen is the idea that if John says to his teacher she/he wants to be called a different name, the teacher should not challenge.

No it’s the idea the parents shouldn’t be informed that’s the issue here.

As for your second answer I think you’re very very wrong and I’ll leave it at that. As I say we’ve all got our own personal experience. Also the data doesn’t back you up.

 

[Evo1883]

Anyway ... hasn't gone down well in Scotland even with many snp voters .

Some are totally deluded and brainwashed and sturgeon could kill their granny and they'd still love her .

But this is not the way to go

Dubed , I called you a fucking weirdo based on the fact you seemingly agree with this ...not for (and I don't don't know and don't care either ) where you are on the LGBTQ scale ...couldn't give a donkeys ..

And I'm calling the government in Scotland and the adults making these decisions weird and frankly disgusting .

You choose to take it as a swipe at your personal life , then fine don't care..but I wasn't

 

[shmmeee]

This whole thing has been about kids at such a young age being taken under the wing of the education system with government consent and not parents knowledge .

For some reason we have adults that seem to agree with it and it ended up with them being told they were weird ..which they are if they accept this is normal

Moving away from the gender stuff. I think this is a fascinating topic. On one level kids have rights and on the other parents do too and I’m not sure where that right balance is other than to say we should tread very carefully and set the bar quite high for removing a parents right to parent how they see fit.

 

[Evo1883]

Moving away from the gender stuff. I think this is a fascinating topic. On one level kids have rights and on the other parents do too and I’m not sure where that right balance is other than to say we should tread very carefully and set the bar quite high for removing a parents right to parent how they see fit.

There's no treading carefully .

My girls are behaved impeccably, they are polite and they have good friends .

Under my roof their rights will always be limited by me ..old fashioned or not I don't care .. many kids are influenced by their parents today and many parents are fucking useless, who are to blame for the state of kids today ? It's not the kids

 

[shmmeee]

There's no treading carefully .

My girls are behaved impeccably, they are polite and they have good friends .

Under my roof their rights will always be limited by me ..old fashioned or not I don't care .. many kids are influenced by their parents today and many parents are fucking useless, who are to blame for the state of kids today ? It's not the kids

OK, but what if you aren’t a good parent? What if you mentally, physically, or sexually abuse a child? Beat them? Starve them? Lock them in a box of live rats in the hope of turning them into Idris Elba in Suicide Squad? Did that QAnon guy have the right to kill his kids because he thought they had serpent DNA?

Obviously there’s a line where the state should step in. And there’s gradients of what physical and mental abuse is. Smacking vs breaking bones for example, telling a kid they need to learn to use a can opener to have dinner vs starving them for days.

Equally can an ISIS supporting parent be left to indoctrinate their kid? What about a fundamentalist Christian? What about someone who believes in gender identity?

Should we allow kids to be taken out of school and denied an education? What’s effective home schooling and what’s denying them a rounded education? What about banning private education?

There’s a million grey areas on this topic.

 

[shmmeee]

Again, you are simply turning the discussion to what you want to debate, which is medical intervention in the young (teenagers), not what is being discussed here. But as you seem to want to make that stretch, then, my view on that, and indeed all gender reassignment, happens to be that if there were more acceptance of non-binary behaviour then people wouldn't feel so forced to change themselves to fit perceived societal norms?

Second point, I couldn't give a shit, as you don't want to have a rational debate, just be outraged.

Third point. Oh, I can, I remember very clearly the time and the place when I was playing with my sister and her girlfriend and we all decided it would be good fun to dress up. The look of a mix of sheer horror and disgust on my Dad's face when I enter the room with a fluffy coat and my Mums shoes is something etched on my mind.

I'd say the majority of transgender folk knew how they felt at that age, not uncommon at all.

Have I now disgusted you?

P.S. After I transitioned, I turned my life around from being a drunk, continually high on cannabis, and spending every second night on the phone to the Sarmatians. I went back to school to get my degrees, masters and doctorate, got a good paying job and a house, and became a mentally stable, tax-paying upright citizen. Following which, my Dad was the best Father I could have wished for. And that included us going to watch the City together once more.

You’re suffering from survivorship bias though. Obviously you don’t talk to people who has fleeting gender dysphoria or dealt with it though therapy or anything else because you run in circles with people who’s dysphoria was sustained and who transition helped. But there’s many many people out there with different experiences who you can’t speak for.

 

[Evo1883]

Again, you are simply turning the discussion to what you want to debate, which is medical intervention in the young (teenagers), not what is being discussed here. But as you seem to want to make that stretch, then, my view on that, and indeed all gender reassignment, happens to be that if there were more acceptance of non-binary behaviour then people wouldn't feel so forced to change themselves to fit perceived societal norms?

Second point, I couldn't give a shit, as you don't want to have a rational debate, just be outraged.

Third point. Oh, I can, I remember very clearly the time and the place when I was playing with my sister and her girlfriend and we all decided it would be good fun to dress up. The look of a mix of sheer horror and disgust on my Dad's face when I enter the room with a fluffy coat and my Mums shoes is something etched on my mind.

I'd say the majority of transgender folk knew how they felt at that age, not uncommon at all.

Have I now disgusted you?

P.S. After I transitioned, I turned my life around from being a drunk, continually high on cannabis, and spending every second night on the phone to the Sarmatians. I went back to school to get my degrees, masters and doctorate, got a good paying job and a house, and became a mentally stable, tax-paying upright citizen. Following which, my Dad was the best Father I could have wished for. And that included us going to watch the City together once more.

I already stated ..that your personal life isn't what I think is weird ..

It's the opinion that at the age of 4 kids can be shielded in secret by schools and the parents have no knowledge ..
That is what's fucking weird and disgusting and the adults that want this are too


Take it as you will I'm not 1 bit bothered

 

[Evo1883]

OK, but what if you aren’t a good parent? What if you mentally, physically, or sexually abuse a child? Beat them? Starve them? Lock them in a box of live rats in the hope of turning them into Idris Elba in Suicide Squad? Did that QAnon guy have the right to kill his kids because he thought they had serpent DNA?

Obviously there’s a line where the state should step in. And there’s gradients of what physical and mental abuse is. Smacking vs breaking bones for example, telling a kid they need to learn to use a can opener to have dinner vs starving them for days.

Equally can an ISIS supporting parent be left to indoctrinate their kid? What about a fundamentalist Christian? What about someone who believes in gender identity?

Should we allow kids to be taken out of school and denied an education? What’s effective home schooling and what’s denying them a rounded education? What about banning private education?

There’s a million grey areas on this topic.

Well yea I mean you've gone from me being a semi strict dad to killing kids

I know what you mean , within reason

 

[Evo1883]

Shmmeee, actually that point was actually to underscore my relationship with my father came out good, not that the gender transition road is the right one or is paved with happiness. So thank you for allowing me to make that clarification.

I also didn't like the way you used the usual lazy tropes of sexual racial and religious bigotry as the bookmark of human fear .

Like I said , I'd blow your mind and you'd end up donating to me

 

[shmmeee]

Well yea I mean you've gone from me being a semi strict dad to killing kids

I know what you mean , within reason

I do love a ridiculous analogy you know me

Smacking is a good example of this though. There’s people that will say any physical discipline is abuse and should result in kids being taken away, yet I’ve spoken to, for example Caribbean mothers who swear blind the reason it’s hard to control their kids is because they can’t smack them.

I don’t know the answers. I’m many ways we don’t break enough cycles of violence and abuse by stepping in early enough, on the other putting a kid who isn’t being abused into care will almost certainly fuck them up more. Really really hard call to make.

 

[shmmeee]

Shmmeee, actually that point was actually to underscore my relationship with my father came out good, not that the gender transition road is the right one or is paved with happiness. So thank you for allowing me to make that clarification.

I think I may have quoted the wrong post or misread there on reflection my comment isn’t appropriate for a reply to yours.

Let me ask a question more relevant though: you say transition gave you all this stuff. It could have come from a born again Christian. And be just as genuine. Would you accept a school pushing that onto children is they gave a hint of believing in God?

We simply don’t know enough about mental health and teachers definitely aren’t qualified to make these decisions. Let adults do what works for them, but tread carefully with child mental health because it’s not a clear path at all and mistreads can have serious consequences

 

[COV]

Again, you are simply turning the discussion to what you want to debate, which is medical intervention in the young (teenagers), not what is being discussed here. But as you seem to want to make that stretch, then, my view on that, and indeed all gender reassignment, happens to be that if there were more acceptance of non-binary behaviour then people wouldn't feel so forced to change themselves to fit perceived societal norms?

Second point, I couldn't give a shit, as you don't want to have a rational debate, just be outraged.

Third point. Oh, I can, I remember very clearly the time and the place when I was playing with my sister and her girlfriend and we all decided it would be good fun to dress up. The look of a mix of sheer horror and disgust on my Dad's face when I enter the room with a fluffy coat and my Mums shoes is something etched on my mind.

I'd say the majority of transgender folk knew how they felt at that age, not uncommon at all.

Have I now disgusted you?

P.S. After I transitioned, I turned my life around from being a drunk, continually high on cannabis, and spending every second night on the phone to the Sarmatians. I went back to school to get my degrees, masters and doctorate, got a good paying job and a house, and became a mentally stable, tax-paying upright citizen. Following which, my Dad was the best Father I could have wished for. And that included us going to watch the City together once more.

many children will find it easier to open up outside the home environment where there will be a degree of pressure to conform- and I’m not by any means saying that’s a bad thing- it’s just a fact.

 

[COV]

I think I may have quoted the wrong post or misread there on reflection my comment isn’t appropriate for a reply to yours.

Let me ask a question more relevant though: you say transition gave you all this stuff. It could have come from a born again Christian. And be just as genuine. Would you accept a school pushing that onto children is they gave a hint of believing in God?

We simply don’t know enough about mental health and teachers definitely aren’t qualified to make these decisions. Let adults do what works for them, but tread carefully with child mental health because it’s not a clear path at all and mistreads can have serious consequences

have I missed something- where does it say that things are going to be ‘pushed onto children’?

surely is just about creating a safe environment where everyone can be what they want to be, with no questions asked- can only talk for me but far as I’m concerned that’s a really good thing.

 

[shmmeee]

Bit of an odd comparison I think. I developed sociophobia and a crushing depression aged 14, from a combination of dread that anyone might know 'me' and what was to become of me. I pretty much kept myself locked away, outside work, until my mid-twenties and then dulled the senses with alcohol and cannabis. Transitioning was a great step forward on the road towards actualisation (and therefore an ability to engage opportunities), but not necessarily authentication. I'm still working on that.

To be clear again, I wasn't saying 'Hey kids, get GR, it's great". I was simply trying to say that whatever the fears and concerns of my Catholic father, love conquers all.

What is being taught here? Be yourself. That's as far away as any religion or ideology that I can think of.

Is that being taught though?

let’s be blunt here: humans can’t change sex. Full stop. We can argue about sex and gender and blah blah blah, but it’s a pretty stone cold fact.

So being yourself is understanding that there is no right and wrong way to be a boy or a girl, not telling them they can literally change sex.

Take sex out of it. If a kid said he was black would we support that? If they said they were a seven foot alien from Mars would we support that?

“be yourself” is a lovely Facebook post, but it’s not a coherent argument nor a prescription. I’d argue quite strongly chopping up your body is the very opposite of “being yourself” it’s making an undertaking to be someone you actually can’t be and four years olds (and older) don’t have the mental capacity to understand that and need adults around.

I assume you know you’re not literally female and took and transition steps with that understanding and the understanding of any other consequences in the round with the benefit you believed (rightly it seems I’m glad to say) would lead to an overall improvement in your quality of life.

No four year old can make decisions about the relative importance of the downsides of transition. And to be clear I know we’re talking about social and not medical transition, but when the world around you tells you you are something rather than coming to terms with the fact you can’t be but you can still be you and be happy, that’s bound to have consequences that make it more likely to persist.

 

[shmmeee]

have I missed something- where does it say that things are going to be ‘pushed onto children’?

surely is just about creating a safe environment where everyone can be what they want to be, with no questions asked- can only talk for me but far as I’m concerned that’s a really good thing.

Should everything a child says be affirmed?

What if a child says they’re evil? What if they say their fat? Which delusions is it acceptable to reinforce in children exactly in your opinion because it’s clearly not all of them I’d hope?

 

[shmmeee]

Totally agree that this is the issue - inform or don't inform - but we seem to have got taken off that track, entirely.

Regards 2., I think perhaps then, you do not understand the terms (transgender) and gender dysphoria. I can't actually conceive of anybody who could be trans and not have been dysphoric. It's not logical. If we are talking about being non-binary, that's another matter,

Stonewall definition of trans doesn’t mention dysphoria and does include non binary I think. If not many other definitions do. I think you know very well that there’s a segment of the trans community that refers to people with the view that you must have dysphoria to be trans as “truscum”. It’s an ill defined term that spans from the seriously dysphoric to those who simply don’t conform to sex stereotypes for dress.

Dysphoria itself is ill defined TBH. On some level virtually everyone at some point feels ill at ease with their sex role. I doubt many women spend their life happy they’re being paid less and abused more. A large amount of the diagnostic criteria are met by people who are not trans: cross gender friendship groups, toys, etc. Ultimately it comes down to a persistent insistence you are the other gender.

 

[COV]

Should everything a child says be affirmed?

What if a child says they’re evil? What if they say their fat? Which delusions is it acceptable to reinforce in children excactly in your opinion because it’s clearly not all of them I’d hope?

you are equating this with someone being evil/ fat/ basically undesirable?

I know you’re not a stupid person, but that’s just wrong.

 

[shmmeee]

you are equating this with someone being evil/ fat/ basically undesirable?

I know you’re not a stupid person, but that’s just wrong.

Im going to be generous and assume you’ve misread that. The analogy is clearly the delusion not a moral judgement.

I assume you can read my other comments so take my examples to dubed instead, unless you’re going to claim being black or an alien is undesirable.

Address the point: should we always affirm a child’s delusions?

 

[COV]

Im going to be generous and assume you’ve misread that. The analogy is clearly the delusion not a moral judgement.

I assume you can read my other comments so take my examples to dubed instead, unless you’re going to claim being black or an alien is undesirable.

Address the point: should we always affirm a child’s delusions?

No, because that isn’t the point, you are trying to force it to become the point when it’s actually way more complex than that.
Nobody is on about ‘affirming’ anything, ‘delusions’ is patronising, and the age 4 part is basically sensationalism. But I suspect you know that already. This is something of relevance to me and this place is a bad place to talk about it, leaving it there.

 

[shmmeee]

No, because that isn’t the point, you are trying to force it to become the point when it’s actually way more complex than that.
Nobody is on about ‘affirming’ anything, ‘delusions’ is patronising, and the age 4 part is basically sensationalism. But I suspect you know that already. This is something of relevance to me and this place is a bad place to talk about it, leaving it there.

It’s not patronising. If a boy says they’re a girl that’s literally a delusion. They aren’t a girl. What do they even mean by saying they want to be a girl? That they wish they had long hair? That they want to play girls games at playtime? That they like dresses? That they “feel like a girl”, what does a girl feel like and how would they know?

If you find the word delusion distasteful feel free to substitute for statement not based in fact.

And the topic is literally about guidance for teachers saying to affirm a child’s statement from the age of four. If you accept there’s circumstances where we shouldn’t affirm a child’s statement that runs contrary to evidence then the question is why this one in particular?

I’m sorry if you don’t like the topic of debate. Happy to leave it there.

 

[shmmeee]

Nooooo! Humans can't change sex - only certain animal species can do that. I haven't seen anywhere that this is being taught? They can also change gender, which is what humans are able to do. That is, reflect the behaviours, characteristics and appearance that are traditionally associated with a particular sex. But bearing in mind that medical science is pretty unanimous in considering that sex is a combination of genetics, genetic expression (throughout life) and socially learnt behaviours, we are all placed .differently along the gender spectrum.

Anyway, that's a wrap from me!

You’re using sex and gender interchangeably when they’re not the same thing. Asparagus has a sex, it doesn’t have socially learned behaviours. Not all sexed species use SRY genes on the Y chromosome to activate male development.

I’ll leave it on this: gender is bollocks. Dress how you want, love who you want, change your name to whatever you want, when you reach age of majority and are of sound mind do whatever you like to your body that makes you happy and fuck anyone that fucks with you for doing so. But schools are there to teach fact as much as possible and telling a kid they can be a different sex ain’t that.

Also teachers should never keep secrets from parents. Safeguarding leads should only do so on extreme circumstances with cast iron evidence of likelihood of harm.

 

[Ian1779]

Safeguarding will always supersede everything, which isn’t really emphasised in the newspaper article or the written paper.

Children will be protected and safe - the people on the ground will make sure that happens.

 

[shmmeee]

Bejesus, I'm not. It's very simple. Sex - the vast majority of the scientific literature takes the presence of a Y chromone to determine one as male, no matter how many Xs that person may have. There of of course nuanced discussion in the literature around this, but most taking as their starting point gamete sex. Similarly, whilst there is much still to be understood about gender behaviour, the vast majority of the scientific literature concludes that gender is likely determined by the expression of gamete sex (including exposure to hormone in the womb) and wider environmental (sociological) influences.

Genuinely would be interested in the gender literature you’ve seen. I’m far from a blank slatist, but I’d feel very uncomfortable about saying something that’s getting close to “GNC are going against biology”. You’re also taking a hammer to some pretty important feminist shibboleths there and I’m not sure we have the evidence for “brain sex”. I’m open to having my mind changed though, but would still worry about what that meant for those who are outliers to the data.

Would nit pick about sex determinism. Sex itself is very well defined across species. And it to do with gamete production, functioning or not. I’d be interested to know where it’s not because my understanding of DSDs is that all can be traced to affecting males or females.

 

[SBAndy]

have I missed something- where does it say that things are going to be ‘pushed onto children’?

surely is just about creating a safe environment where everyone can be what they want to be, with no questions asked- can only talk for me but far as I’m concerned that’s a really good thing.

‘No questions asked’ is an insane policy when you’re talking about primary-aged children. Like shmmeee has touched on, kids of that age largely aren’t capable of rounded analysis so questions would need to be asked to get them thinking. I don’t think it’s an alien concept to have policy for schools to discuss this, but it should be very much reactive. Parents would also need to know as has been highlighted. Even on a practical level, if a child wanted to wear the uniform of the other gender then I’m guessing the parents would have to purchase it?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

No it's not , they are weird fuxkers trying to do shit like this to kids at such a young age

While I've not looked into this fully and part of me suspects it's something being reported in an alarmist way, we already do try and force things on kids at a young age.

Boys and girls are treated very differently from a very early age, from how they should act, to what toys they should play with etc.

Going into things in detail and legally is way too far (if that is indeed what they're considering) but letting a boy play with a doll or a girl play with a football/toy soldiers etc is encouraging 'gender neutrality'.

 

[COV]

Safeguarding will always supersede everything, which isn’t really emphasised in the newspaper article or the written paper.

Children will be protected and safe - the people on the ground will make sure that happens.

the reporting on this is hugely sensationalist and a lot of people on here have just swallowed the headlines. Guessing nobody has even opened or attempted to even look at the document itself, it’s just a case of jumping straight into the tabloid “hands off our kids you weirdos!” approach & leaping into assumptions that surgical procedures are going to be discussed with 4 year olds & ‘ideology’ will be rammed down their throats, which is false.