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Walsgrave

Well-Known Member
stupot07 said:
The problem then is you're going to cause even more inequality and reduce the scope for social mobility. University would be exclusively for those that go to independent schools and grammar schools, with some affluent/middle class state school kids and even less kids from the deprived area. And then that has a knock on effect on careers, etc and lower the glass ceiling. What's the point then of any kid in a deprived area having any type of aspiration if you stack the deck even more against them. Not sure what the answer is Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
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That would be true if it were the case that going to any uni at all provided the ticket to higher/earnings/a better life than parents etc, which unfortunately it no longer automatically does when over 50% are attending. I think there was a report a few years ago that found that from a pure financial point of view, on average only those who do Medicine, Dentistry or go to Oxbridge earn a salary premium over their entire career to justify going under the current system. Not everything is about money of course, and if people go and have a great time socially then nobody could possibly say whether or not it has been worth it for them.

So if instead we limited the number going to uni but used the money to help support getting young people, especially in disadvantage areas, to get into these high quality, rigorous courses at uni, and also technical qualifications/apprenticeships, we'd have a fine balance of people being supported to go into careers that they are suited to.
 
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stupot07

stupot07

Well-Known Member
Walsgrave said:
That would be true if it were the case that going to any uni at all provided the ticket to higher/earnings/a better life than parents etc, which unfortunately it no longer automatically does when over 50% are attending. I think there was a report a few years ago that found that from a pure financial point of view, on average only those who do Medicine, Dentistry or go to Oxbridge earn a salary premium over their entire career to justify going under the current system. Not everything is about money of course, and if people go and have a great time socially then nobody could possibly say whether or not it has been worth it for them.

So if instead we limited the number going to uni but used the money to help support getting young people, especially in disadvantage areas, to get into these high quality, rigorous courses at uni, and also technical qualifications/apprenticeships, we'd have a fine balance of people being supported to go into careers that they are suited to.
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But graduates do earn more, on average £10k pa / 41% more than a non graduate.

www.gov.uk

Graduates continue to benefit with higher earnings

New figures show that working-age graduates earned £10,000 more than non-graduates in 2018 and had higher employment rates.
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk

There would need to be wide scale transformation on education, training and employment, and also how we value and restructure financial reward for different jobs.

Otherwise it is a race to the bottom.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
 
W

Walsgrave

Well-Known Member
stupot07 said:
But graduates do earn more, on average £10k pa / 41% more than a non graduate.

www.gov.uk

Graduates continue to benefit with higher earnings

New figures show that working-age graduates earned £10,000 more than non-graduates in 2018 and had higher employment rates.
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk

There would need to be wide scale transformation on education, training and employment, and also how we value and restructure financial reward for different jobs.

Otherwise it is a race to the bottom.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
That 10k/year is heavily skewed by graduates of 'elite' unis as well that the bulk of 16-64 year old graduates went when it was more selective. Its still the case that graduates earn a premium on average but the premium starts to really tail off the further down the league tables list we venture, to the extent that there is no premium on average for those who go to some institutions.

The Graduate Premium: manna, myth or plain mis-selling? - Intergenerational Foundation

Research reports from the Intergenerational Foundation, on a range of intergenerational fairness topics.
www.if.org.uk www.if.org.uk
 
shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
Walsgrave said:
That 10k/year is heavily skewed by graduates of 'elite' unis as well that the bulk of 16-64 year old graduates went when it was more selective. Its still the case that graduates earn a premium on average but the premium starts to really tail off the further down the league tables list we venture, to the extent that there is no premium on average for those who go to some institutions.

The Graduate Premium: manna, myth or plain mis-selling? - Intergenerational Foundation

Research reports from the Intergenerational Foundation, on a range of intergenerational fairness topics.
www.if.org.uk www.if.org.uk
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Id imagine it varies pretty wildly by course as well.
 
Evo1883

Evo1883

Well-Known Member
dubed said:
You cannot make anybody non-binary or transgender, any more than you can make anybody gay. The proposal is simply aimed at allowing kids a safe space and not challenging them. In fact, it's about not enforcing the view of another, outside of parenthood.
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4 years old ?

Bollocks

Do it behind parents backs at school ?

Disgraceful
 
JAM See

JAM See

Well-Known Member
Evo1883 said:
Kids even safe at school anymore?
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I'm sure it's more nuanced than a typical Daily Torygraph headline, but I'll go with it and explore further.

However, adding a Twatter link from someone who can't spell descends...
 
Evo1883

Evo1883

Well-Known Member
JAM See said:
I'm sure it's more nuanced than a typical Daily Torygraph headline, but I'll go with it and explore further.

However, adding a Twatter link from someone who can't spell descends...
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Why don't you go straight to the jugular, it includes ALL school children which would include children down to the age of 4

What kind of weirdo supports this nonsense in schools


t.co

Supporting transgender young people in schools: guidance for Scottish schools

Guidance for schools on supporting transgender young people
t.co t.co
 
JAM See

JAM See

Well-Known Member
Evo1883

Evo1883

Well-Known Member
JAM See said:
Maybe we should make the transgender kids have their own water fountains, and not use the ones reserved for the white non-transgender kids.
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Freak , we are talking about kids as young as 4 you absolute tampon...
 
shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
dubed said:
You cannot make anybody non-binary or transgender, any more than you can make anybody gay. The proposal is simply aimed at allowing kids a safe space and not challenging them. In fact, it's about not enforcing the view of another, outside of parenthood. Approbation and correction to behave in a binary way is damaging. I know.
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Not going to get into this because I know it’s personal, but literally no one is taking about behaving “in a binary way”.
 
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shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
Evo1883 said:
Fuck personal , keep these weird fuxkers away from young kids
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Think that’s over the line mate TBH.

I agree four year olds shouldn’t be taught tumblr gender ideology. I have no problem with adults behaving however makes them feel comfortable as long as they’re not bothering harming anyone else.

Edit: bothering was the wrong word
 
Evo1883

Evo1883

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
Think that’s over the line mate TBH.

I agree four year olds shouldn’t be taught tumblr gender ideology. I have no problem with adults behaving however makes them feel comfortable as long as they’re not bothering anyone else.
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Neither do I... leave the kids alone , I crossed no line .. governments are crossing lines coming after the kids
 
shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
dubed said:
What is this fringe ideology?
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Can you tell me what the following words mean:

- sex
- gender
- trans
- gender identity

Because whatever you say will not be consistent with a bunch of other people with similar beliefs and isn’t believed by the vast majority of people. That’s what makes it fringe.

There’s also a very basic safeguarding element here. You shouldn’t keep secrets about kids from parents. That’s literally rule one.
 
JAM See

JAM See

Well-Known Member
Evo1883 said:
Freak , we are talking about kids as young as 4 you absolute tampon...
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A: Happy to be a (beautiful) Freak.
B: Kids as young as four are still human beings and should be listened to. I'm sure you'd agree. If you don't agree with listening to children, please expand.
C: I wish I was an actual tampon. I could use myself for five days a month and save a load of money.
 
Evo1883

Evo1883

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
Can you tell me what the following words mean:

- sex
- gender
- trans
- gender identity

Because whatever you say will not be consistent with a bunch of other people with similar beliefs and isn’t believed by the vast majority of people. That’s what makes it fringe.

There’s also a very basic safeguarding element here. You shouldn’t keep secrets about kids from parents. That’s literally rule one.
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Not only that , the SNP are putting teachers welfare in danger as I can't imagine too many parents would take it so well
 
shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
Evo1883 said:
Not only that , the SNP are putting teachers welfare in danger as I can't imagine too many parents would take it so well
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The SNP are doing with a lot of this stuff what Blair tried to do with immigration and it never ends well. People don’t like government enacting change without a democratic mandate. Pretending this is a closed debate is disingenuous.
 
shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
JAM See said:
A: Happy to be a (beautiful) Freak.
B: Kids as young as four are still human beings and should be listened to. I'm sure you'd agree. If you don't agree with listening to children, please expand.
C: I wish I was an actual tampon. I could use myself for five days a month and save a load of money.
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Mate my daughter wanted to be Spider-Man when she was 4. And a mechanic.
 
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shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
dubed said:
More like you can't articulate your fears because you don't quite know what you are fearful of, nor have had the experience of your living your life in very real, true fear, more than a black man, more than a women, more than a muslin.
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Are you genuinely claiming trans people in this country have more to fear than a black person, a woman, or a Muslim? Or have I misread that?
 
shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
dubed said:
I believe they all have very clear definitions, and it is only those who are ignorant, wish to confuse or do not wish to engage in rational discussion who would say opposite.

I think you raise a valid point of discussion regards your latter point. I'd have to think on that. I think my first reaction is that teachers do indeed have a safeguarding issue, and that sharing a child's admission with a parent could have very serious consequences.
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Thats not a teachers call to make as any teacher will tell you. Literally rule 1 of every safeguarding session I’ve attended: don’t promise you can keep secrets.

If the words have a simple definition, give it.
 
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Evo1883

Evo1883

Well-Known Member
COV said:
May I ask- who are you talking about- the teachers?
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The government , its the SNP that are doing this not the teachers ..I don't know how they feel about it I'd imagine not entirely comfortable
 
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