Do you want to discuss boring politics? (21 Viewers)

[SBT]

Would you be OK with the school supporting anorexia if the child feels they are fat? After all kid knows best. What about suicide if they feel there’s no point? Kid knows best.

The fact that someone like you can casually compare identifying as a different gender with something as harmful as suicide or anorexia shows that as a society we just have no fucking idea how to talk about this stuff.

Count me in as one of the people who has a lot to learn about all this - I think it’s going to be one of those things where in 20/30 years, we look back with embarrassment about how we handled it all, and it won’t be easy for everyone to get on board.

 

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[Deleted member 5849]

Deleted as probably tactless!

 

[Skybluefaz]

Deleted as probably tactless!

I don't think you were far off tbh.

 

[COV]

I genuinely think it's my generation's racism - most of us have probably had an old Great Aunt or Uncle who we cringed at when they said something... 'of their generation' wrt racism, and they genuinely had no idea what they were saying was offensive.

Wrt transgenderism, I fear I might be the same as that in 30-odd years if I'm not careful! I try to understand... some things I don't.

this is a great point. Even a quick look on here and you’ll see it equated to evil, suicide, anorexia, people saying it’s ‘not statistically normal’, and a lot of fear & outrage driven by a lack of understanding.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I don't think you were far off tbh.

Ha! It's a difficult subject though, isn't it!

And sometimes of course, the wanting not to cause offence sometimes stops learning more from others as much as people causing offense (even if unwittingly). And so the circle continues...

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Anyway, as COV quoted me I may as well stick it back up!

I genuinely think it's my generation's racism - most of us have probably had an old Great Aunt or Uncle who we cringed at when they said something... 'of their generation' wrt racism, and they genuinely had no idea what they were saying was offensive.

Wrt transgenderism, I fear I might be the same as that in 30-odd years if I'm not careful! I try to understand... some things I don't.

 

[Sick Boy]

Ha! It's a difficult subject though, isn't it!

And sometimes of course, the wanting not to cause offence sometimes stops learning more from others as much as people causing offense (even if unwittingly). And so the circle continues...

From what I can see teenagers today are far more aware and understanding of the issue compared to my generation (mid 30s).

I’m sure I’ve also read studies that ‘trans’ people are the most likely to be on the end of violence/abuse than anyone else.

 

[Skybluefaz]

Ha! It's a difficult subject though, isn't it!

And sometimes of course, the wanting not to cause offence sometimes stops learning more from others as much as people causing offense (even if unwittingly). And so the circle continues...

Extremely difficult.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Anyway, as COV quoted me I may as well stick it back up!

I genuinely think it's my generation's racism - most of us have probably had an old Great Aunt or Uncle who we cringed at when they said something... 'of their generation' wrt racism, and they genuinely had no idea what they were saying was offensive.

Wrt transgenderism, I fear I might be the same as that in 30-odd years if I'm not careful! I try to understand... some things I don't.

You're probably right.

I'll admit my difficulty in understanding it is that how is transgenderism that much different from other forms of body dysmorphia? Pretty much everyone has something they feel is not 'right', whether it to be with body shape, facial features, hair and we spend a lot of time changing them physically, some in more drastic ways than others.

Is it physical or mental? Is it more to do with how we expect the different sexes to act that causes the problem rather than the physical body? if people were allowed to be who they wanted to be in terms of what they wear/do etc., would the desire to physically change be as strong? Do people want the surgery so that they feel society will be more accepting of them and the way they are? i.e. if I look like a man/woman it'll be more acceptable for me to act the way I want to?

Having all these classifications like trans/queer etc is just trying to fit people into boxes and the fact that more and more 'types' are being identified shows its an attempt to categorise because people are saying they don't feel like they fit into any of the categories so create another. In reality there's probably as many 'types' as there are people because no one person will be the same as another. It's the age old problem of everyone being different in some way to everyone else but wanting to feel like they belong and that there are people just like them.

Basically is the solution to do away with gender stereotypes than to do all this transitioning? After all even if you have gender realignment surgery you're still not, biologically, that sex. You just look more like it so again it seems more a mental thing.

I reckon in the short-term we'll have two classifications, sex and gender, but will eventually work towards removing gender stereotypes which are just a construct created by society over many centuries/millenia

 

[Sick Boy]

You're probably right.

I'll admit my difficulty in understanding it is that how is transgenderism that much different from other forms of body dysmorphia? Pretty much everyone has something they feel is not 'right', whether it to be with body shape, facial features, hair and we spend a lot of time changing them physically, some in more drastic ways than others.

Is it physical or mental? Is it more to do with how we expect the different sexes to act that causes the problem rather than the physical body? if people were allowed to be who they wanted to be in terms of what they wear/do etc., would the desire to physically change be as strong? Do people want the surgery so that they feel society will be more accepting of them and the way they are? i.e. if I look like a man/woman it'll be more acceptable for me to act the way I want to?

Having all these classifications like trans/queer etc is just trying to fit people into boxes and the fact that more and more 'types' are being identified shows its an attempt to categorise because people are saying they don't feel like they fit into any of the categories so create another. In reality there's probably as many 'types' as there are people because no one person will be the same as another. It's the age old problem of everyone being different in some way to everyone else but wanting to feel like they belong and that there are people just like them.

Basically is the solution to do away with gender stereotypes than to do all this transitioning? After all even if you have gender realignment surgery you're still not, biologically, that sex. You just look more like it so again it seems more a mental thing.

I reckon in the short-term we'll have two classifications, sex and gender, but will eventually work towards removing gender stereotypes which are just a construct created by society over many centuries/millenia

The wise words of my mate Renton: “One thousand years from now there'll be no guys and no girls, just wankers. Sounds great to me.”

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The wise words of my mate Renton: “One thousand years from now there'll be no guys and no girls, just wankers. Sounds great to me.”

So this forum is well ahead of the times then.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Ha! It's a difficult subject though, isn't it!

And sometimes of course, the wanting not to cause offence sometimes stops learning more from others as much as people causing offense (even if unwittingly). And so the circle continues...

In my student days in 'more socially conscious' Scotland I got stunned by mates asking if we 'wanted to go for a chinky'. The English ones among us were gobsmacked, the Scots non-plussed!

On gender in schools-in the past I've taught in all boys schools. At one of them a 6th former wanted to transition and was given the choice to stay on if they wanted. Further down the school I'm less sure how it'd have been handled

 

[wingy]

Would Afghanistan have been better to have recruited a women only army ?

 

[shmmeee]

Would Afghanistan have been better to have recruited a women only army ?

No. From the sounds of it they needed everyone they could get their hands on.

 

[wingy]

No. From the sounds of it they needed verging they could get their hands on.

Well I mean from the perspective they wouldn't have balls in the game, like their counterparts?

 

[shmmeee]

Yes it’s a Twitter poll and yes it’s TalkRadio, but not sure I’ve seen a Twitter poll with this many votes this unanimous before

 

[COV]

Yes it’s a Twitter poll and yes it’s TalkRadio, but not sure I’ve seen a Twitter poll with this many votes this unanimous before

They’re asking if kids age 4 should be allowed to change their gender at school. Not sure too many would approve of that.

it is however not what the proposal is. But it’s elicited the desired outrage.

The ignorance is amazing- I’m surprised at you falling for this type of thing.

 

[shmmeee]

They’re asking if kids age 4 should be allowed to change their gender at school. Not sure too many would approve of that.

it is however not what the proposal is. But it’s elicited the desired outrage.

The ignorance is amazing- I’m surprised at you falling for this type of thing.

That’s literally the policy though? You can keep saying “ignorance” “falling for it” but you haven’t explained what’s incorrect.

 

[skybluetony176]

That’s literally the policy though? You can keep saying “ignorance” “falling for it” but you haven’t explained what’s incorrect.

I think the key point is use of the word “allow”. The only thing it’s allowing is a safe place for expression of what they already feel they are. You can’t allow someone to be trans gender, gay, whatever. They already are, it’s the safe place that’s disallowed.

 

[shmmeee]

I think the key point is use of the word “allow”. The only thing it’s allowing is a safe place for expression of what they already feel they are. You can’t allow someone to be trans gender, gay, whatever. They already are, it’s the safe place that’s disallowed.

But they aren’t. Demonstrably. It’s a load of wibble based on vaguely defined terms and bad science.

According to this document anyone who is a boy an emotional or doesn’t “conform to masculine physical attractiveness” is trans:



This is the exact problem. No one can consistently define what being trans is. If a kids got a diagnosis of gender dysphoria that’s one thing. But this guidance is a load of bollocks looking to be trendy and seemingly written by some dodgy charities that promote child transition.

It’s a load of sexist drivel. Uses the word gender 171 times in 71 pages yet doesn’t define it once.

WTF is an “individual experience of gender”? What does that even mean?

This is stuff for a tumblr blog or a gender studies assignment not school guidance.

 

[JAM See]

In my student days in 'more socially conscious' Scotland I got stunned by mates asking if we 'wanted to go for a chinky'. The English ones among us were gobsmacked, the Scots non-plussed!

On gender in schools-in the past I've taught in all boys schools. At one of them a 6th former wanted to transition and was given the choice to stay on if they wanted. Further down the school I'm less sure how it'd have been handled

Strange one that. I still (after a few pints) refer to Chinese cuisine as 'a chinky', but I balk at others use of the N word.

Glad that all racial stereotyping is being gradually erased. We've got a fair way to go with regards to gender stereotyping, but we are headed in the right direction I reckon.

I am still a complete bigot when it comes to those cheating Barnsley cunts though!

 

[SBT]

According to this document anyone who is a boy an emotional or doesn’t “conform to masculine physical attractiveness” is trans:

It doesn’t appear to say that at all from what you’ve posted? But you go on citing TalkRadio Twitter polls.

 

[shmmeee]

It doesn’t appear to say that at all from what you’ve posted? But you go on citing TalkRadio Twitter polls.

the only thing I was citing was the one sided nature of the poll that was surprising. But go on cherry picking one out of tens of questions posted to make yourself feel better.

It literally does. It says trans people are people who don’t conform to gender stereotypes and lists those as gender stereotypes.

Maybe you can answer: what’s gender? What’s a gender identity mean?

 

[SBT]

It literally does. It says trans people are people who don’t conform to gender stereotypes and lists those as gender stereotypes.

It says that not conforming to gender stereotypes is something that trans people do. It does not say that anyone who doesn’t conform to gender stereotypes is trans. You sound like someone trying to drum up a moral panic.

 

[shmmeee]

It says that not conforming to gender stereotypes is something that trans people do. It does not say that anyone who doesn’t conform to gender stereotypes is trans. You sound like someone trying to drum up a moral panic.

You sound like someone who can’t explain what they’re on about so resorts to insults.

Gender is sex stereotypes. That’s what I’ve always been taught: boys have short hair, girls can’t throw, etc etc.

It says transgender people are people who’s gender isn’t the same as their sex. Which makes no sense so I assume they mean they don’t conform to sex stereotypes.

If you have a better description feel free to give it. I seriously doubt you have though.

You’ll be the third person in this thread to get get angry and abusive and be completely unable to answer basic questions about the ideology you’re getting angry about. It’s tiresome.

 

[SBT]

You sound like someone who can’t explain what they’re on about so resorts to insults.

Gender is sex stereotypes. That’s what I’ve always been taught: boys have short hair, girls can’t throw, etc etc.

It says transgender people are people who’s gender isn’t the same as their sex. Which makes no sense so I assume they mean they don’t conform to sex stereotypes.

If you have a better description feel free to give it. I seriously doubt you have though.

You’ll be the third person in this thread to get get angry and abusive and be completely unable to answer basic questions about the ideology you’re getting angry about. It’s tiresome.

I’m talking only about this specific statement of yours:

According to this document anyone who is a boy an emotional or doesn’t “conform to masculine physical attractiveness” is trans

The document you then posted doesn’t say that at all.

Why would you suggest that Scottish government policy is trying to impose trans status on any non-stereotypical kid when it isn’t doing that at all?

 

[shmmeee]

I’m talking only about this specific statement of yours:


The document you then posted doesn’t say that at all.

Why would you suggest that Scottish government policy is trying to impose trans status on any non-stereotypical kid when it isn’t doing that at all?

It does say that.

Here’s what it says a transgender person is:


This makes no sense so you have to make some assumptions. So what’s gender identity?



Their “experience of gender”

what’s gender? It’s a bunch of stereotypes like boys don’t cry girls like pink.

So they’re saying someone is transgender if their gender doesn’t match their sex, which again is nonsense words but can best be guessed to mean acts in ways that aren’t stereotypical for their sex.

It’s gibberish at best and sexist bollocks at worst. It’s not close to coherent enough to be government policy, let alone guidance for schools working with kids.

 

[Evo1883]

As usual the office topic section of skybluestalk thinks differently to the vast majority of people ..consider me shocked .

It's not about being left or right either this , it's about common sense .

We are creating an absolute monster in terms of mental health, many factors at play

 

[SBT]

It does say that.

Here’s what it says a transgender person is:
View attachment 21405

This makes no sense so you have to make some assumptions. So what’s gender identity?

View attachment 21406

Their “experience of gender”

what’s gender? It’s a bunch of stereotypes like boys don’t cry girls like pink.

So they’re saying someone is transgender if their gender doesn’t match their sex, which again is nonsense words but can best be guessed to mean acts in ways that aren’t stereotypical for their sex.

It’s gibberish at best and sexist bollocks at worst. It’s not close to coherent enough to be government policy, let alone guidance for schools working with kids.

You probably should have posted that part of the document first then. I can see that the definition seems clunky. But in any case, it still takes a fair amount of work on your part to get from this umbrella term (which by the document’s own admission is interchangeable), to your alarmist claim that all non-stereotypical kids are now trans in the eyes of the government. Clearly the assumptions you feel you “have to” make are taking you in a very different direction to where I would go.

 

[shmmeee]

You probably should have posted that part of the document first then. I can see that the definition seems clunky. But in any case, it still takes a fair amount of work on your part to get from this umbrella term (which by the document’s own admission is interchangeable), to your alarmist claim that all non-stereotypical kids are now trans in the eyes of the government. Clearly the assumptions you feel you “have to” make are taking you in a very different direction to where I would go.

And yet you’re still unable to state in clear terms (or any terms for that matter) what the correct interpretation is.

 

[Ian1779]

As usual the office topic section of skybluestalk thinks differently to the vast majority of people ..consider me shocked .

It's not about being left or right either this , it's about common sense .

We are creating an absolute monster in terms of mental health, many factors at play

I don’t think that’s quite fair. There are a lot of people on this thread that open admit to not knowing enough around this topic (myself included) and so are more considered before reaching absolute outrage.

Also, this is a document written by academics, and is a million miles away from what would a be implementable policy for schools and teachers to follow, and as I said before Safeguarding will come before any of this, so students will be protected.

 

[Evo1883]

I don’t think that’s quite fair. There are a lot of people on this thread that open admit to not knowing enough around this topic (myself included) and so are more considered before reaching absolute outrage.

Also, this is a document written by academics, and is a million miles away from what would a be implementable policy for schools and teachers to follow, and as I said before Safeguarding will come before any of this, so students will be protected.

And what are most academics ?

Universities very left wing institutions having a profound effect on policies going forward..

In will all end in tears

 

[Ian1779]

And what are most academics ?

Universities very left wing institutions having a profound effect on policies going forward..

In will all end in tears

You’ve just said it’s not about left and right… make your bloody mind up.

 

[Evo1883]

You’ve just said it’s not about left and right… make your bloody mind up.

Well I'm more on about the public opinion In general , it's not about left or right is it most people think it's fucking nuts .

The people asking the policies are all well educated academics coming from this background

 

[shmmeee]

Well I'm more on about the public opinion In general , it's not about left or right is it most people think it's fucking nuts .

The people asking the policies are all well educated academics coming from this background

Nah it’s a particular corner of academia which has repeatedly been shown to have poor standards, group think, and unprovable views. Why that’s bleeding into government policy is an interesting question though.