Do you want to discuss boring politics? (34 Viewers)

[clint van damme]

Because Labour does not want people to join the middle classes as oddly it’s clue is in the title

It’s consigned to the history books

Labour being consigned the history books isn't something I'll argue about,I think.youre right.

If Ed Davey makes a second referendum policy ( not something I'd vote for), I think Labour are absolutely fucked.

 

---

[Evo1883]

Jesus christ, just asking clint's question again

And 'my' MPs and membership? I'm not a Labour member. I've voted Labour once in my lifetime.

When I say you or your I'm talking about Labour not you

 

[clint van damme]

So why do you think it is then ? If my answer isn't enough ...what do you think is the reason

I don't know which is why I'm asking

 

[Evo1883]

I don't know which is why I'm asking

I could have sold a graphics card the other day .

But the person I was selling it too left me a sarcastic comment as a parting shot to do with price before collecting it .

It was in my interest to sell that card to him ...but I didn't because I thought he was a c**t .

 

[PVA]

I could have sold a graphics card the other day .

But the person I was selling it too left me a sarcastic comment as a parting shot to do with price before collecting it .

It was in my interest to sell that card to him ...but I didn't because I thought he was a c**t .

So you cut your nose off to spite your face.

Which I think is actually exactly what a lot of Tory voters do.

Good answer.

 

[clint van damme]

I could have sold a graphics card the other day .

But the person I was selling it too left me a sarcastic comment as a parting shot to do with price before collecting it .

It was in my interest to sell that card to him ...but I didn't because I thought he was a c**t .

Sorry mate, I don't understand that. I have had a few!

 

[oakey]

Firstly the old working class has always had 'Alf Garnett' types who look up to toffs, dislike change and foreigners and have no sense of solidarity with their peers. My family, solid WC dad worked in car factory etc, has all my life had more tory voters than Labour.
Secondly, Labour tribal voting is based on sense that 'the workers' deserve better. Yet the workers have allowed themselves to be divided - waning union membership, failing to show support for equal pay for women, ignoring discriminatory practices at work over many years. It's now every man for himself and devil take the hindmost.
Working people don't love the tories but they no longer see them as the enemy.
Tonight I listened to family members moaning about some Coventry council director getting a wad. When I tried to discuss the government sleaze they weren't interested. Why?
When I was a child strikes by other workers were respected. Now they'd get little support.
I dont know what the answer is but I think big changes are coming.

 

[Ian1779]

No not at all - oh sorry Ian it’s intelligent people like you who can sift the bias and brain dead working class zombies who are thicker and read the sun who are influenced

Vote winning argument

I said nothing of the sort - it is true that the majority of the written press openly favours the Conservative party.

 

[Evo1883]

Sorry mate, I don't understand that. I have had a few!

If people don't like Labour , they won't vote for Labour.

It's as simple as that

 

[Evo1883]

So you cut your nose off to spite your face.

Which I think is actually exactly what a lot of Tory voters do.

Good answer.

In the same way alot of people vote Labour because their dad and grandad did ..it's all relative

 

[oakey]

In the same way alot of people vote Labour because their dad and grandad did ..it's all relative

Which is a criticism that working people who vote tory level at Labour voters, and is a subtle way of calling them thick, I think.

 

[Philosoraptor]

everyone keeps avoiding my question, it's like the brexit thread, I'll leave it there.

I'll give it a shot.

If you have two parties who act like they are two peas in a pod, neo-liberalism and all that, then people have two choices if they want to see a change for the Labour Party in Coventry.

1. Don't vote for Labour.

You can see this happening with the low turnout in the City and Wards. Some of the turnouts from these wards are amongst the lowest in the country.

This, however, does not remove the problem of Coventry Labour and their disconnect with the working class, they are still in power up to a point where the people who usually vote Tory and floating voters outnumber the other Tory's that are left in Coventry Labour.

2. Vote for any other candidate who is most likely to win the vote.

This will double your voting chances of getting some change for the Labour Party in Coventry. After all, is it going to make much difference who is locally in power in Coventry at the moment?

I always like the analogy of a glass of water when talking about Coventry Labour. Most of the liquid which many of us would class as Labour has gone from the glass of water and all that is left is basically backwash.

--

This again wouldn't be my own personal choice of options on who to vote for but if you want to change your local councillor in Coventry then vote for the candidate that has some chance of replacing the one you want to go.

 

[Evo1883]

Which is a criticism that working people who vote tory level at Labour voters, and is a subtle way of calling them thick, I think.

I've seen Labour voters tell other Labour voters that it's one of the reasons they vote Labour..it's tradition , no family of mine would ever vote tory etc .

It's one of the reasons I vote Labour because I feel like I'm doing something wrong if I don't...my family are all Labour told us from a young age " never the tories "

Ironically even some of them have shifted too , people genuinely really dislike Labour

There's got to be something wrong with them if they don't get voted in and if their policies are that great then your just left with wether people like you or not ..and People REALLY don't like Labour and it's MPs...obviously.

 

[PVA]

Ironically even some of them have shifted too , people genuinely really dislike Labour

And that's fine.

... But then they go and vote for the party that cuts the police and the NHS, imposes austerity, bent to the core, regularly shafts the working class.

That's what's hard to understand and is why clint repeatedly asked what's so appealing about the Tories. Why not vote Lib Dems or Greens, anyone.

 

[Evo1883]

And that's fine.

... But then they go and vote for the party that cuts the police and the NHS, imposes austerity, carries out brazen corruption.

That's what's hard to understand and is why clint repeatedly asked what's so appealing about the Tories. Why not vote Lib Dems or Greens, anyone.

Same problem I'm afraid ..nobody likes them

Have the Lib dems ever really recovered from nick clegg shafting his supporters ?

 

[PVA]

Same problem I'm afraid ..nobody likes them

Have the Lib dems ever really recovered from nick clegg shafting his supporters ?

But that's still not answering the question!

Why do the tories appeal?

You decide you don't like Labour and want to vote someone else. Fine. Why do you then choose this corrupt bunch of corrupt c**ts that have only their interests at heart and have spent the last 10 years wrecking the country?

It makes no sense.

Brexit was clearly a huge driver in the previous election.

 

[Evo1883]

Listen I don't claim to know about politics , but I definitely know why alot of people won't vote for Labour...

It's common knowledge .

The only people that can't see it are Labour and it's wonderful membership

 

[Evo1883]

But that's still not answering the question!

Why the tories?

You decide you don't like Labour and want to vote someone else. Fine. Why do you choose this corrupt bunch of corrupt c**ts that have only their interests at heart and have spent the last 10 years wrecking the country?

It makes no sense.

Brexit was clearly a huge driver in the previous election.

If that's the case about brexit then the next election should be alot closer ...I'd put a fair chunk on the conservatives winning by landslide again

 

[PVA]

If that's the case about brexit then the next election should be alot closer ...I'd put a fair chunk on the conservatives winning by landslide again

If there was no such thing as Brexit then the last election would have been much closer, that's a fact. Not saying that Labour would have won, but it would have been closer, this is undeniable.

If Brexit continues to be a shit show and if there's an inquiry into the pandemic which finds the government culpable then it will be much closer than last time. However this government is very adept at avoiding scrutiny so I don't doubt they'll be able to successfully absolve themselves of all blame in both those areas.

 

[oakey]

If you see life as being
Winners V Losers
Strivers V Shirkers
Patriots V Traitors
Then you are an open goal for the Tories who use every trick in the book to paint themselves as Patriotic winning strivers and paint Labour as the home of wokes, shirkers, traitors and losers.
Every tory voter I know is a sucker for this as they lack empathy IMO.

 

[Evo1883]

If you see life as being
Winners V Losers
Strivers V Shirkers
Patriots V Traitors
Then you are an open goal for the Tories who use every trick in the book to paint themselves as Patriotic winning strivers and paint Labour as the home of wokes, shirkers, traitors and losers.
Every tory voter I know is a sucker for this as they lack empathy IMO.

The kindest most brilliant ,generous and empathic person I know Is a conservative voter that lives in Solihull...work that one out then

Honestly, an amazing person

 

[Skybluefaz]

The kindest most brilliant ,generous and empathic person I know Is a conservative voter that lives in Solihull...work that one out then

Honestly, an amazing person

There are some decent Conservatives. Rory Stewart absolutley fucking nailed the stuff on the pandemic for example. Him like the other decent ones have been cast aside though.

 

[oakey]

The kindest most brilliant ,generous and empathic person I know Is a conservative voter that lives in Solihull...work that one out then

Honestly, an amazing person

Cognitive dissonance

 

[Evo1883]

Cognitive dissonance

Took me in after my mum died and dad became an alcoholic at 13 , offered me work at 13 at his greengrocers until 17 when I joined the army ..
Paid off all my debt twice over , helped me buy a house , treats my children like they are his own grandchildren and has left his whole estate worth half a million to my kids .
Would drive a million miles if you needed him


Tory wanker

 

[clint van damme]

Took me in after my mum died and dad became an alcoholic at 13 , offered me work at 13 at his greengrocers until 17 when I joined the army ..
Paid off all my debt twice over , helped me buy a house , treats my children like they are his own grandchildren and has left his whole estate worth half a million to my kids .
Would drive a million miles if you needed him


Tory wanker

Sounds like a great bloke. Maybe he can answer my question because other c**t seems able to

 

[Philosoraptor]

If we getting serious with why people are leaving Labour for elsewhere then I put it down to the psyche of a lot of their members.

A German poem.

 

[clint van damme]

It's not rocket science. The reasons are quite straightforward.

1. An aspirational working-class wanting to improve the lives of their families through their own means rather than rely on welfarism and paternalism, and a perception that the Tories always manage the economy better (counter-argument - the working class are stupid).

2. Brexit, and the failure of Corbyn to offer a credible position on Brexit (counter-argument - the working class are racist).

3. The almost farcical lack of credibility around Labour's spending programme, and a discontent with the metropolitan bourgeois and identity politics (counter-argument - the working class are both stupid and racist).

1 and 3 don't stand up to scrutiny.
I agree with you on 2.

 

[stupot07]

OK here's a question .

Why do Labour keep losing if the tories are so bad , and why are the working class voting for them in their droves if Labour offer them more

The rise of the SNP haven't helped.

And now the tories want to change the constituency boundaries to make it even more in their favour.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

 

[PVA]

It's not rocket science. The reasons are quite straightforward.

1. An aspirational working-class wanting to improve the lives of their families through their own means rather than rely on welfarism and paternalism, and a perception that the Tories always manage the economy better (counter-argument - the working class are stupid).

2. Brexit, and the failure of Corbyn to offer a credible position on Brexit (counter-argument - the working class are racist).

3. The almost farcical lack of credibility around Labour's spending programme, and a discontent with the metropolitan bourgeois and identity politics (counter-argument - the working class are both stupid and racist).

Point 2 is perfectly valid.

1 & 3 are not.

1 - If they rely on welfare why would they want to abandon that and 'aspire' to make their lives better by voting for the party that routinely gives zero fucks about the working class?

3 - lack of credibility about Labour's spending plan but happy for the Tories to bung billions to their mates? Discontent with the middle class bourgeois... so vote for the upper class toffs?

 

[Grendel]

1 and 3 don't stand up to scrutiny.
I agree with you on 2.

They do especially 1 - class based politics “we are the party of the working classes” is not a modern aspirational message. Class system politics is dying.

 

[clint van damme]

They do especially 1 - class based politics “we are the party of the working classes” is not a modern aspirational message. Class system politics is dying.

That may be, but aspirations aren't being helped under this government.
In the same way 3 may be true regarding Labours spending plans but given the tories had an uncosted manifesto they either didn't hold the tories to the same scrutiny or it wasnt a factor at all.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

So people are aspiring to become middle class activists...?

 

[PVA]

Poor old George Eustice only gets sent out to bat when the Tories are under fire

 

[Grendel]

Lol David Schneider a reason again why people wouldn’t vote Labour

 

[PVA]

Lol David Schneider a reason again why people wouldn’t vote Labour

This continued argument makes no sense.

"I won't vote for Labour because I don't like this man on Twitter, so I'll just vote for the party that continues to wreck the country and gives zero fucks about people like me. That'll teach that nasty man on twitter"