He was far too easy a target for the press. The policies were good. Is there an irony that identity politics is pointed at as a Labour issue yet Corbyn was deconstructed on the basis of his perceived identity? I dunno, the whole thing is a fucking shambles really.Yeah polarised is probably fair. He was most likely the most popular and also the most unpopular in that demographic for decades.
I guess what I’m looking it is more ‘lower working class’. You can still be working class and own a home and have some investments but in the demographic that don’t have them, or a pension, his politics were very popular.
Which is fair. With hindsight we went for the wrong man. If the left thought their candidate had any chance of winning in 2015 it wouldn’t have been Corbyn. I think McDonnell would have been better, although he did have the same dodgy foreign connections I think he would have had a better grin on the PLP.I'd argue much of the politics was popular, the man wasn't.
There's a paradox, which is when a party seems at its strongest, often creates the cracks for weakness. Take Labour - Blair swept all before him by appealing to middle England, but that started the alienation felt by traditional northern Labour heartlands. Fast forward to when Blair was a busted flush, and that alienation is embedded.
Now? Johnson swept aside elements of his party to ensure Brexit happened, and the Conservative members have also shifted pretty right. Now atm the Prime Minister can paper over that because he, relatively, isn't. But whenever he (and maybe the one after) go, then you have a situation that could potentially be as the Labour Party find themselves - a bunch of party members out of step with what's needed, who push the party overly right, making them unappealing to the masses.
So, there's a current wave, but that could very much fail.
Umunna and co. probably had the right idea, but managed it poorly. Really, a Liberal Party well-run would have space to pick up Southern England, while trad Labour focussed on the North, and they ruled in coalition to moderate one another. Our system doesn't really allow for that so, would the respective leaders be brave enought o pool resources to focus in that way...?
None of those Brexit party people have gone back to Labour though, the Labour share has dropped from 2019 so it has to be asked if that performance was so poor what about the party is now less attractive.Labour would have lost Hartlepool in 2019 had the Brexit Party not split the vote. This is not a surprising result in any way.
McDonnell was better at fronting up to things, too.The prevarication over many issues did for Corbyn, too. Sometimes you need to take a position, and go for it.Which is fair. With hindsight we went for the wrong man. If the left thought their candidate had any chance of winning in 2015 it wouldn’t have been Corbyn. I think McDonnell would have been better, although he did have the same dodgy foreign connections I think he would have had a better grin on the PLP.
It is in the SNP's constitution to break up into its constituent parts once Independence is achieved. It is an amalgamation of many political parties.
Labour and Starmer has got some really difficult decisions to make. For too long, it’s pandered to the view of its membership rather than the wider electoral base.
If Starmer wants to ‘rebuild the red wall’ he needs to start by apologising for attempting to have a 2nd Brexit referendum and stop field pro-Remain candidates in overwhelmingly pro-Leave constituencies.
Like in Germany, I think the Greens will eventually grow to be the next big centre-left political force in the next 10-25 years.
There’s a realignment in British politics happening and Labour’s existence as a major political force is at risk.
None of those Brexit party people have gone back to Labour though, the Labour share has dropped from 2019 so it has to be asked if that performance was so poor what about the party is now less attractive.
Problem is, Brexit has been to the detriment of a policy agenda - odd times. After all, Blair's government was outward looking, extremely pro European, and exceptionally popular!As I mentioned previously, Brexit appeared to be tearing the Tories apart but what its done is pretty much torn Labour in two. The more metropolitan, southern remain base and the working class, northern, historical core. It needs to listen to the electorate, decide what it wants to stand for and then try to provide a clear message and policies that attracts enough of those two sides.
Yeah, I heard someone quote earlier....’if Labour are no longer standing for the working man, who are they standing for’
As I mentioned previously, Brexit appeared to be tearing the Tories apart but what its done is pretty much torn Labour in two. The more metropolitan, southern remain base and the working class, northern, historical core. It needs to listen to the electorate, decide what it wants to stand for and then try to provide a clear message and policies that attracts enough of those two sides.
There might have to be some kind of coalition with Lib Dem’s who appear to be pretty irrelevant at the moment and only split the left vote further.
Whether all those factions can be merged together is the (very) tricky part !
ps someone also mentioned present government fatigue, which has been masked by Brexit but ultimately will return in coming years
Good thread:
It’s not the fault of Momentum, they often represent younger people trying to engage in politics. You need to look at the middle class London centrist politicians that think they know what is best for Northern working class people.That's been my thinking as well. In the 80s, apart from certain strangleholds like Merseyside, Militant remained at the fringes. Today, Momentum is truly embedded.
Hahaha lets all laugh at Labour losing Hartlepool, hilarious
Need a new direction then lolI don’t find it funny that the country doesn’t have an effective opposition
Need a new direction then lol
The one common denominator that causes all of these political ideologies to fail is human greed.
Where does Starmer go from here?
I'm not sure, just watched Mandelson talking and I agree with him. I don't think it's a Starmer problem, although he's not an inspiring individual is he, let's be honest. Its the shadow of Corbyn. That bloke butchered the Labour party.Need a new direction then lol
I think he now has to change tack and with coming out of restrictions he needs to become more of an attack dog. I don't want him gone yet as I think he's a very capable person but it's showing personality is everything these days, competence is nothing.
How about starting, by trying to actually appeal to the electorate. That might be a good start!
Mandelson as usual is talking shite. This is on Starmer plain and simple. He’s had a year to get his vision across and he’s only come up with ‘not Corbyn’ which according to Mandelson should have been more than enough. The reality is he does not give people any reason to vote for him or his party at all.I'm not sure, just watched Mandelson talking and I agree with him. I don't think it's a Starmer problem, although he's not an inspiring individual is he, let's be honest. Its the shadow of Corbyn. That bloke butchered the Labour party.
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No one will vote for a bunch of condescending arseholes who hate you and are constantly negative.
I'm not sure, just watched Mandelson talking and I agree with him. I don't think it's a Starmer problem, although he's not an inspiring individual is he, let's be honest. Its the shadow of Corbyn. That bloke butchered the Labour party.
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Well if it’s elect a stand up comedian as leader we’re in good company. If that’s really all it is let’s get Frankie Boyle on the line
That still doesn't explain why Labour have gone from 15k to 8k in 18 months thoughSince 2005 the right (CON + UKIP or CON + BXP) has been growing more and more popular there. It's just a general trend that's been ongoing for a while and now with no BXP or UKIP to split the vote it was inevitable.
2005
LAB 18k / CON + UKIP 5k
2010
LAB 16k / CON + UKIP 13k
2015
LAB 14k / UKIP + CON 18k
2017
LAB 22k / CON + UKIP 19k
2019
LAB 15k / CON + BXP 22k
But they also think their workmates are lazy bastards or that they would leave a burning building.
It’s deeper than any comment. It’s a guttural feeling that the working class aren’t liked by Labour activists and some MPs. It’s born out of social activism needing to make every problem sound huge to get support IMO.
It’s the sneering at the flag. The sneering at working class culture. The sneering at voters for voting how they voted.
That’s the activist left. The political establishment soft left isn’t much better, all patronising and maternal and knows what’s best.
Immigration was just a microcosm but a good case study. People said “I don’t like the pace of change in my community” (a perfectly normal human reaction seen around the world and not rooted in racism) Labour saw it as a defect that needed fixing in people “too racist” “too easily led by the media” “too stupid to understand how important immigrants are”.
Focus on every smaller groups at the exclusion of the majority. The problem with minority identity politics is by definition it doesn’t concern a majority of people.
The closest Labour have is Jess Phillips for not hating the working class. But instead she decided to hate 49% of the population instead (I don’t think that’s true but that’s what’s received).
The left are perfectly capable of pulling their head out of their arses, having a bit of humility, and seeing the upper class as the enemy not the bloke in the pub who said “blind spot” in front of a blind person or whatever.
We talk condescendingly about the Tories putting the working class against each other but then do it ourselves all the fucking time.
Agreed, this isn't on Starmer. It's been coming since way before Starmer.
Vaccine bounce & Brexit are impossible to counter, it really doesn't matter who the LOTO is at the moment Johnson is just unbeatable.
That guy did seem like a right prick, and a legitimate stick to beat Starmer with.The second part may well be true right now. So in that case, just concentrate on what you can do where you have control and show people that you can get things done. And maybe don’t make stupid decisions like the Lab candidate choice for a Hartlepool along the way.
Labour would have lost Hartlepool in 2019 had the Brexit Party not split the vote. This is not a surprising result in any way.
That still doesn't explain why Labour have gone from 15k to 8k in 18 months though
Oh, even in the 70s, Harold Wilson realised that in opposition to Ted Heath, what he needed to emphasise was Northern pipe smoker, rather than Oxford educated.
I'm not sure, just watched Mandelson talking and I agree with him. I don't think it's a Starmer problem, although he's not an inspiring individual is he, let's be honest. Its the shadow of Corbyn. That bloke butchered the Labour party.
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This works fine until you realise that they really like the Etonian and Oxford Classics graduate who randomly whacks the odd bit of Latin into his speeches. So it ain't that that bothers them.
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