shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Have you ever worked in private industry? That happens all the time.
Do you want to discuss boring politics? (26 Viewers)
- Thread starter mrtrench
- Start date
Have you ever worked in private industry? That happens all the time.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
So like I said then, they’re borrowing the money.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
No. They are not. They are selling a financial product. Borrowing the money implies that the spending is dependent on somebody investing in the bond, it is not.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
The capacity agreement only works if people are prepared to use alternative routes. There's an existing cheaper, and slower, route from Cov to London. You don't get much overcrowding on that one as the vast majority of people use the quickest route.
Are they going to come up with some ridiculous pricing structure to force people onto certain trains?
can't help think putting this much money into improving existing infrastructure and running better and more frequestnt services would have been a better option
Are they going to come up with some ridiculous pricing structure to force people onto certain trains?
can't help think putting this much money into improving existing infrastructure and running better and more frequestnt services would have been a better option
robbiekeane
Well-Known Member
Government borrowing as a term includes issuing debt securities like bonds. Selling a financial product = borrowing….surely you’re not disputing that
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Do you think the grant-in-aid is open ended?
High Speed Two 6-monthly report to Parliament: October 2022
Review of HS2 including programme update, local community impact and engagement, environment, benefits and programme governance.
There is a budget like anything else. Its last published accounts stated that it delivered what it had intended to broadly within the budget for the year.
It's a myth that the private sector perfectly manages budgets, the only reason that perception exists is because it does not have to report so publicly like the public sector does. Everybody is subject to the same cost pressures.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
I am not disputing it I am saying that the borrowing is not an actual dependency for spending. The labelling of selling securities as borrowing misrepresents what it happening as the general public assume it to be like you or I going to the bank to borrow money.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
It doesn't increase capacity if the lines aren't happening to the places they were going to!
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Not sure you understand how bonds work.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
So like I said then. They’re borrowing it.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
It isn't how bonds work it is how public financing works.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Agreed but I’m not paying for it
Well you are in some form. I believe HS2 still pays for itself though. Down to 1.3 x but still profitable.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
I know you're a natural Tory, Tony, but the government is not a household.
It does not borrow money from anywhere. It creates all of the money it spends. It uses products like bonds to create safe investments which help to reduce the potential inflationary pressures from spending. It does not depend on the borrowing for the spending. The spending will always happen first.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
In the case of HS2 the government has raised the public finances through bonds. So like I said, they’re borrowing it.
Do you think the grant-in-aid is open ended?
High Speed Two 6-monthly report to Parliament: October 2022
Review of HS2 including programme update, local community impact and engagement, environment, benefits and programme governance.www.gov.uk
There is a budget like anything else. Its last published accounts stated that it delivered what it had intended to broadly within the budget for the year.
It's a myth that the private sector perfectly manages budgets, the only reason that perception exists is because it does not have to report so publicly like the public sector does. Everybody is subject to the same cost pressures.
Im not saying the private sector is perfect, not by a long way, many businesses aren’t which is why they go bust (public sector never has that worry which is maybe one if the cultural drivers, it’s human nature)
Have a look at defence procurement, the nhs IT system that was canned etc, even all the pandemic stuff. Its frightening
I haven’t got a major issue with HS2. I’d have just done North down as I said earlier. I actually want more infrastructure spending, if it was properly controlled and things completed a bit quicker. I just don’t have much confidence in politicians of any political persuasion and civil servants to deliver this
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
I’ve never suggested by any stretch of the imagination that the government is like a household. You’re adding your own context rather than admit that the government are issuing bonds to borrow the money to build HS2. Which is all I pointed out. The facts are the UK is seen as an unattractive place to invest, including gilts. The BOE tried to support the market by buying up government bonds in October after the Truss/Kwartang soap opera but that was largely unsuccessful. People are not queuing up at the moment to buy government bonds (BOE aside), especially the pension market. This latest car crash in the HS2 history could be as much to do with the cost of government borrowing required to build this section as anything else.
And as for calling me a natural Tory don’t make me laugh when you’ve done more to facilitate this government than I ever have.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
North is where it was supposed to be needed more, but they started with London, scrapped the Leeds section... just shows it's bollocks really.
Levelling up, my arse.
I won’t get into the bond convo but just a clarity point. The demand is there now people have a bit more confidence following truss/Kwarteng shitshow
UK 30-year bond sale draws strongest demand in over a year
Britain received the highest demand in more than a year at a sale of 30-year government bonds on Tuesday, attracting some 68.4 billion pounds of orders for a new gilt which matures in October 2053 . ... -January 24, 2023 at 11:55 am EST - MarketScreener
www.marketscreener.com
Crazy isn’t it. Poor planning and budgeting, now it’s become a bit toxic due to the costs, which is a shame as we do need more infrastructure spending
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
Not really. Politically expedient to say one thing and do another.
If the project was anywhere near budget, even 20, 30, 40% more then I can’t imagine canning the northern section/parts of it would even be being discussed. Last time I saw the estimate for completion was 2-3 times original budget
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
Just like the pandemic, just like the Teeside freeport, HS2 will be a huge opportunity for the tory spivs and speculators to make money and the public will end up footing the bill.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Highest in a year isn’t exactly bragging rights though. You have to put that into context. It’s bit like the Tories bragging that they’ve put 10k officers on the streets without acknowledging that they took off 20k first. The fact is this is largely catch-up following the events of last September and October, as the article points out. The other fact is after the pound devalued in 2016 and never really recovered the gilt market has found it a lot more difficult than it did before. The strength of the pound is a major factor in the government’s ability to raise bonds and at what value. The country is fucked. If the government can’t even get a flagship infrastructure another 7 miles down the line the writing is on the wall.I won’t get into the bond convo but just a clarity point. The demand is there now people have a bit more confidence following truss/Kwarteng shitshow
UK 30-year bond sale draws strongest demand in over a year
Britain received the highest demand in more than a year at a sale of 30-year government bonds on Tuesday, attracting some 68.4 billion pounds of orders for a new gilt which matures in October 2053 . ... -January 24, 2023 at 11:55 am EST - MarketScreenerwww.marketscreener.com
For what it’s worth I agree with you. We’ve just got to bite the bullet and get it finished. Might as well mothball everything already done otherwise.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
If you tart with the bits that are needed most, you care more about budget. The fact they start with the least needed, and let it go over without considering whether to keep the northern section or not, shows how little it actually matters.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
HS2 on track for approval after Tory donors warn Boris Johnson
Boris Johnson will give the green light to the HS2 high-speed rail project on Tuesday and announce further spending on infrastructure projects.The cabinet will give an immediate go-ahead to the London to Birmingham spur and the Birmingham to Crewe western arm of the Y-shaped route. The Manchester to
www.thetimes.co.uk
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Boris is her first guest.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
That’s the real problem that needs solving is the time it takes us to do infrastructure projects like this. We should have a proper midlands metro, better regional links, and a high speed spine. Going from London to the midlands is such a culture shock in terms of transport.
Anyway this has been denied by the govt so let’s see.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
Guaranteed it won't go to Euston, then.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Has it? Might have missed it but all I heard Hunt say was that it’s unthinkable that it wouldn’t go to Euston. Didn’t commit to any date so the Sun article stating it won’t be until 2038 may still be right.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
You have admitted you naturally are a Tory and the only real deviations up to 2017 were Blair and then Corbyn and of course UKIP (the latter two somewhat ironic given your supposed Brexit stance)
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
I've always expected the northern parts of HS2 to get canned at some point as rather than improving the north is was all about getting people to London and being able to use BHX as airport capacity for London.
Never did I expect that it wouldn't actually get into Central London. If it doesn't the entire project is pointless.
Never did I expect that it wouldn't actually get into Central London. If it doesn't the entire project is pointless.