shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Have you ever worked in private industry? That happens all the time.
It’s a public sector project. Of course private sector is going to deliver it as you can’t just employ tens of thousands of random people to deliver a massive project but there has been no control of spending from the top
‘High Speed Two (HS2) Limited is the company responsible for developing and promoting the UK's new high speed rail network. It is funded by grant-in-aid from the government. HS2 Ltd is an executive non-departmental public body, sponsored by the Department for Transport’
ps we also live in a country where everything is painfully slow to deliver
So like I said then, they’re borrowing the money.No, the government creates gilts to give institutions like pension funds long term safe investments (bonds), this is a choice it makes which has some merit. It does not need to borrow £ from anybody, it can create a £ at the strike of a key in the Bank of England.
So like I said then, they’re borrowing the money.
Government borrowing as a term includes issuing debt securities like bonds. Selling a financial product = borrowing….surely you’re not disputing thatNo. They are not. They are selling a financial product. Borrowing the money implies that the spending is dependent on somebody investing in the bond, it is not.
It’s a public sector project. Of course private sector is going to deliver it as you can’t just employ tens of thousands of random people to deliver a massive project but there has been no control of spending from the top
‘High Speed Two (HS2) Limited is the company responsible for developing and promoting the UK's new high speed rail network. It is funded by grant-in-aid from the government. HS2 Ltd is an executive non-departmental public body, sponsored by the Department for Transport’
ps we also live in a country where everything is painfully slow to deliver
Government borrowing as a term includes issuing debt securities like bonds. Selling a financial product = borrowing….surely you’re not disputing that
It doesn't increase capacity if the lines aren't happening to the places they were going to!Because that was never the argument for it, the argument is that it increases capacity on the other lines to allow more local trains
Not sure you understand how bonds work.No. They are not. They are selling a financial product. Borrowing the money implies that the spending is dependent on somebody investing in the bond, it is not.
So like I said then. They’re borrowing it.I am not disputing it I am saying that the borrowing is not an actual dependency for spending. The labelling of selling securities as borrowing misrepresents what it happening as the general public assume it to be like you or I going to the bank to borrow money.
Not sure you understand how bonds work.
Have you ever worked in private industry? That happens all the time.
Agreed but I’m not paying for it
So like I said then. They’re borrowing it.
In the case of HS2 the government has raised the public finances through bonds. So like I said, they’re borrowing it.It isn't how bonds work it is how public financing works.
Do you think the grant-in-aid is open ended?
High Speed Two 6-monthly report to Parliament: October 2022
Review of HS2 including programme update, local community impact and engagement, environment, benefits and programme governance.www.gov.uk
There is a budget like anything else. Its last published accounts stated that it delivered what it had intended to broadly within the budget for the year.
It's a myth that the private sector perfectly manages budgets, the only reason that perception exists is because it does not have to report so publicly like the public sector does. Everybody is subject to the same cost pressures.
Well you are in some form. I believe HS2 still pays for itself though. Down to 1.3 x but still profitable.
I’ve never suggested by any stretch of the imagination that the government is like a household. You’re adding your own context rather than admit that the government are issuing bonds to borrow the money to build HS2. Which is all I pointed out. The facts are the UK is seen as an unattractive place to invest, including gilts. The BOE tried to support the market by buying up government bonds in October after the Truss/Kwartang soap opera but that was largely unsuccessful. People are not queuing up at the moment to buy government bonds (BOE aside), especially the pension market. This latest car crash in the HS2 history could be as much to do with the cost of government borrowing required to build this section as anything else.I know you're a natural Tory, Tony, but the government is not a household.
It does not borrow money from anywhere. It creates all of the money it spends. It uses products like bonds to create safe investments which help to reduce the potential inflationary pressures from spending. It does not depend on the borrowing for the spending. The spending will always happen first.
North is where it was supposed to be needed more, but they started with London, scrapped the Leeds section... just shows it's bollocks really.I’d have just done North down as I said earlier.
I’ve never suggested by any stretch of the imagination that the government is like a household. You’re adding your own context rather than admit that the government are issuing bonds to borrow the money to build HS2. Which is all I pointed out. The facts are the UK is seen as an unattractive place to invest, including gilts. The BOE tried to support the market by buying up government bonds in October after the Truss/Kwartang soap opera but that was largely unsuccessful. People are not queuing up at the moment to buy government bonds (BOE aside), especially the pension market. This latest car crash in the HS2 history could be as much to do with the cost of government borrowing required to build this section as anything else.
And as for calling me a natural Tory don’t make me laugh when you’ve done more to facilitate this government than I ever have.
North is where it was supposed to be needed more, but they started with London, scrapped the Leeds section... just shows it's bollocks really.
Levelling up, my arse.
Not really. Politically expedient to say one thing and do another.Crazy isn’t it. Poor planning and budgeting
Not really. Politically expedient to say one thing and do another.
Highest in a year isn’t exactly bragging rights though. You have to put that into context. It’s bit like the Tories bragging that they’ve put 10k officers on the streets without acknowledging that they took off 20k first. The fact is this is largely catch-up following the events of last September and October, as the article points out. The other fact is after the pound devalued in 2016 and never really recovered the gilt market has found it a lot more difficult than it did before. The strength of the pound is a major factor in the government’s ability to raise bonds and at what value. The country is fucked. If the government can’t even get a flagship infrastructure another 7 miles down the line the writing is on the wall.I won’t get into the bond convo but just a clarity point. The demand is there now people have a bit more confidence following truss/Kwarteng shitshow
UK 30-year bond sale draws strongest demand in over a year
Britain received the highest demand in more than a year at a sale of 30-year government bonds on Tuesday, attracting some 68.4 billion pounds of orders for a new gilt which matures in October 2053 . ... -January 24, 2023 at 11:55 am EST - MarketScreenerwww.marketscreener.com
If you tart with the bits that are needed most, you care more about budget. The fact they start with the least needed, and let it go over without considering whether to keep the northern section or not, shows how little it actually matters.If the project was anywhere near budget, even 20, 30, 40% more then I can’t imagine canning the northern section/parts of it would even be being discussed. Last time I saw the estimate for completion was 2-3 times original budget
In case anyone is struggling for Friday night plans:
View attachment 28219
Big get for the first show’s main interview, wonder who they have lined up for week #2.
Just like the pandemic, just like the Teeside freeport, HS2 will be a huge opportunity for the tory spivs and speculators to make money and the public will end up footing the bill.
Boris is her first guest.Nads doing a talk show! Jonathan Dross!
I haven’t got a major issue with HS2. I’d have just done North down as I said earlier. I actually want more infrastructure spending, if it was properly controlled and things completed a bit quicker. I just don’t have much confidence in politicians of any political persuasion and civil servants to deliver this
Guaranteed it won't go to Euston, then.Anyway this has been denied by the govt
Has it? Might have missed it but all I heard Hunt say was that it’s unthinkable that it wouldn’t go to Euston. Didn’t commit to any date so the Sun article stating it won’t be until 2038 may still be right.Anyway this has been denied by the govt so let’s see.
And as for calling me a natural Tory don’t make me laugh when you’ve done more to facilitate this government than I ever have.
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