Do you want to discuss boring politics? (29 Viewers)

[Brighton Sky Blue]

No one on this thread has ever used the words of Conservative politicians against them then? God forbid some are forced to look a bit closer to home.

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I don't know many MPs full stop who have actually called for or wanted to co-ordinate violence. Oh wait, I know one.

You might not have said Labour remain voters but I did.
I'd characterise it as back stabbing because it is... we think you are stupid and made a poor decision are you sure you wouldn't like to change your mind? That worked well didn't it.
Democracy isn't really comparable to an episode of Who Wants to be a Millionaire is it really.

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The ironic thing is that Corbyn’s personal Brexit stance would actually have been popular in these seats and in the past he had given leftist arguments in favour of it.

 

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[oakey]

Asking people to reflect and rethink is not calling them stupid otherwise you could never have new elections.
Democracy is thought to be the best way to arrive at good outcomes. Changing your mind is strength not stupidity. It's why in every contract you will ever sign there are get out clauses and money back guarantees, cooling off periods etc.
Research suggests 2/3 Labour voters chose Remain. If Labour had backed Brexit fully they would not have been representing the majority of their supporters.
It was an historic mistake for Labour to get into bed with the Tories over Brexit.

 

[TomRad85]

The ironic thing is that Corbyn’s personal Brexit stance would actually have been popular in these seats and in the past he had given leftist arguments in favour of it.

I agree, he should have had the balls to stand by it.

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[clint van damme]

You might not have said Labour remain voters but I did.
I'd characterise it as back stabbing because it is... we think you are stupid and made a poor decision are you sure you wouldn't like to change your mind? That worked well didn't it.
Democracy isn't really comparable to an episode of Who Wants to be a Millionaire is it really.

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I don't know, when it comes to dishing out lucrative contracts the government certainly aren't adverse to phoning a friend.

 

[oakey]

I agree, he should have had the balls to stand by it.

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I think you may be right.
But Labour would have split and we may have sèen a new centre party/alliance or lost the votes of me and millions of others.
It may have been a better outcome than what we have now.

 

[shmmeee]

The problem with Labours position IMO was most people were sick of Brexit and wanted it over one way or another. They were promising dragging it out some more with renegotiation. Which is ironic as almost two years later and we’re still talking about renegotiation.

Most rabid Brexit voters I spoke to weren’t happy at being asked to vote again with an option to remain as they saw the matter as settled, but would’ve settled for a new vote on the type of Brexit (e.g. customs Union vs not). IMO that should’ve been Labours tactic but they let the PV crowd have too much say.

 

[oakey]

I disagree with you, I think Labour remainers voters would have largely stayed with them regardless. No one votes for Lib Dems and Change UK was it? Well... lol

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Again, you may be right but don't underestimate how strongly millions of Remainers feel. It will be a factor in pulling many Labour leaning voters towards Greens, LDs, SNP and PC. Enough to stop Labour in many constituencies.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

John McDonnell?

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Think supplying a journalist’s address to help arrange their assault

 

[TomRad85]

Again, you may be right but don't underestimate how strongly millions of Remainers feel. It will be a factor in pulling many Labour leaning voters towards Greens, LDs, SNP and PC. Enough to stop Labour in many constituencies.

What still? Surely now most accept its done and will return to Labour? I think Labour will do better at the next GE (not hard I know.)

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[Ian1779]

"Stab them in the back" or "Allow a chance for a rethink"?
Labour's timidity and fence sitting over Brexit lost both Leavers and Remainers as I feared it would all along.
From day one Labour should have labelled it "Tory Quitters" and had nothing to do with it. But we all know Labour was too divided and many on the left loved Brexit.

You can’t go against the basic will of the people. It’s democracy in its most fundamental form, and if happened in another country we’d be sending in monitors and the like.
You can argue the merits of its shitness all day long, but it had to be honoured.
In the future of the voting public want it enough, they should be given the chance to rejoin if they so desire.

 

[oakey]

You can’t go against the basic will of the people. It’s democracy in its most fundamental form, and if happened in another country we’d be sending in monitors and the like.
You can argue the merits of its shitness all day long, but it had to be honoured.
In the future of the voting public want it enough, they should be given the chance to rejoin if they so desire.

We'll have to disagree amicably then.
The 'will of the people' is a nonsense phrase to me. We are all individuals and there is no fixed will or opinion. Such a notion is fascistic as it imagines a collective which doesn't exist. The people who got to vote didn't include British residents who were EU citizens for example, or anyone currently under the age of 23.
Referendums should only be held on definite propositions if at all. They should require supermajorities if they involve major constitutional change.
It is a perversion of democracy.

 

[Ian1779]

We'll have to disagree amicably then.
The 'will of the people' is a nonsense phrase to me. We are all individuals and there is no fixed will or opinion. Such a notion is fascistic as it imagines a collective which doesn't exist. The people who got to vote didn't include EU citizens for example, or anyone currently under the age of 23.
Referendums should only be held on definite propositions if at all. They should require supermajorities if they involve major constitutional change.
It is a perversion of democracy.

I won’t actually disagree with anything you said here - the referendum was a sham from start to finish… BUT most people aren’t aware of the finer details of it all. They saw Labour’s approach as an assault on democracy… ignoring the fact that Cameron’s fudge to solve an interval party dispute was far worse.
One thing that the Remain camp have still failed to do to this day is really look inwards as to why it lost.

 

[oakey]

I won’t actually disagree with anything you said here - the referendum was a sham from start to finish… BUT most people aren’t aware of the finer details of it all. They saw Labour’s approach as an assault on democracy… ignoring the fact that Cameron’s fudge to solve an interval party dispute was far worse.
One thing that the Remain camp have still failed to do to this day is really look inwards as to why it lost.

Absolutely, and I'm not trying to rerun the whole thing. Too late for that.
But I am trying to explain how Labour got in a mess trying to keep their Leave voters onside instead of taking a clear stand against Brexit. It was difficult but by trying to placate everyone they pleased no-one.
IMO many Remain voters will not just meekly go back to supporting Labour. They are just as much a headache for Labour as Red wall Leavers.

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

The ironic thing is that Corbyn’s personal Brexit stance would actually have been popular in these seats and in the past he had given leftist arguments in favour of it.

THis

I agree, he should have had the balls to stand by it.

And this.

 

[Ian1779]

Absolutely, and I'm not trying to rerun the whole thing. Too late for that.
But I am trying to explain how Labour got in a mess trying to keep their Leave voters onside instead of taking a clear stand against Brexit. It was difficult but by trying to placate everyone they pleased no-one.
IMO many Remain voters will not just meekly go back to supporting Labour. They are just as much a headache for Labour as Red wall Leavers.

Labour should have gone out after the referendum and said to their leave voting constituencies ‘sorry we neglected you and your towns when we were in power’ if you give us the chance to lead this exit this is how you’ll see the benefits. But they didn’t anywhere near enough, and should have been a much higher priority than keeping PV campaigners in London happy.

 

[hill83]

Can I just say that “revert to type” has got my back up @TomRad85

You might be Grendels new double act against Tony, but you and Tony are opposite sides of the same coin. You aren’t the all seeing fence sitter you think you are.

 

[hill83]

Firstly I never said I was a fence sitter, I don't sit on the fence.
Secondly I have no idea why 'revert to type' has your back up.

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There’s plenty more that’s got my back up. You aren’t what you think you are

 

[Evo1883]

 

[hill83]

I’ve only known you exist last couple of weeks

 

[hill83]

The bollocks on you. The audacity to to suggest gay people don’t need to come out for one.

 

[Evo1883]

I’ve only known you exist last couple of weeks

Ouch

 

[hill83]

“Call a spade a spade” I assume is it?

 

[hill83]

Ermm what's wrong with that exactly? Why should anyone be forced to come out?
If by Grendels double act you mean the only non left winger to enter the circle jerk then so be it I guess.

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Bingo

Who’s being forced? No nuance about you. Classic.

At least Grendels got a bit about him

 

[hill83]

I not quite sure what's got your back up exactly, i simply how no idea why the public are obsessed with what goes on in people's bedrooms. I mean we could talk about you making disparaging comments about the disabled couldn't we...

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Bingo

 

[hill83]

Nothing about you.

 

[hill83]

Speak to somebody who not ‘out’ yet and get back to me. Nobody is obsessed. Not sure where you’ve got that from. You love a strawman argument you don’t even see it.

 

[hill83]

I’m not offended. I just think you are a bit of a twat.

 

[hill83]

You don't know me so please don't make assumptions.

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I can only judge on what you post. I don’t know you. Correct.

 

[Evo1883]

I’m not offended. I just think you are a bit of a twat.

 

[hill83]

OK cool, thanks me letting me know. Still like to know how you got all bent out of shape about 'revert to type.'

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There’s more.

“Ok cool” fuck off

 

[Evo1883]

Just leave it lads , hill get pissed , Tom go bench press a car , il post silly gifs that never get any responses ... all is good

 

[Evo1883]

Think I need to move on from gifs

 

[Evo1883]

Too late Brighton liked my GIF

 

[TomRad85]

Just leave it lads , hill get pissed , Tom go bench press a car , il post silly gifs that never get any responses ... all is good

Thing is I actually backed him when he made his disabled comments and people were getting on his case, yet he's actually getting super wound up about posts of mine that aren't even offensive. He doesn't know anything about me.

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[Brighton Sky Blue]

Just leave it lads , hill get pissed , Tom go bench press a car , il post silly gifs that never get any responses ... all is good

Hill is pissed
Tom is washing the 'pure whiff' out of his tracksuit
You're on Zoom with Ron Jeremy