Do you want to discuss boring politics? (110 Viewers)

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I started out in science. Not sure what that proves

Maybe the point here is that public sector workers being pitted against private sector workers is in the interests of neither and that both in fact need to thrive for society as a whole to function.

 

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[wingy]

From those data, it looks like we as individuals shell out as much as France and Sweden, and not a million miles behind anyone - it is the EMPLOYERS' SSC which is pathetically low compared to other European nations. Denmark is something of an outlier at 35% income tax?? Seriously?? What is their median salary?

The train drivers are going to get hit in the budget then I'd say?

 

[Grendel]

Both industries without merit in your view? Be kind, I bruise easily.

They are not private organisations which have huge arrays of different workers with complex challenges regarding their workforce - the make believe scenarios you describe just do not happen

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

They are not private organisations which have huge arrays of different workers with complex challenges regarding their workforce - the make believe scenarios you describe just do not happen

I didn’t realise big pharma wasn’t such an organisation

 

[Grendel]

I didn’t realise big pharma wasn’t such an organisation

It’s not an organisation that is in an environment that has to make frequent checks and balances and not just “pay what people are worth”

99% of businesses are SMEs - if they ran on your theoretical model most would be bust

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It’s not an organisation that is in an environment that has to make frequent checks and balances and not just “pay what people are worth”

99% of businesses are SMEs - if they ran on your theoretical model most would be bust

This whole debate proves my point about how silly it is for workers from different sectors to be squabbling amongst themselves.

 

[Grendel]

This whole debate proves my point about how silly it is for workers from different sectors to be squabbling amongst themselves.

No one is squabbling

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

No one is squabbling

It’s what keeps you young G

 

[shmmeee]

Fucking hell

 

[MalcSB]

The train drivers are going to get hit in the budget then I'd say?

That would be hilarious.

 

[shmmeee]

From those data, it looks like we as individuals shell out as much as France and Sweden, and not a million miles behind anyone - it is the EMPLOYERS' SSC which is pathetically low compared to other European nations. Denmark is something of an outlier at 35% income tax?? Seriously?? What is their median salary?

This suggests it’s about £60k! (Assuming Google currency conversion isnworking)

The average Dane

See the average Dane's salary, life expectancy, favorite holiday destinations and much more.

www.dst.dk

 

[shmmeee]

kids

The adults are worse than the kids.

 

[fernandopartridge]

When inflation is very high many companies have a choice to offer below and preserve the workforce or sacrifice some workers. The car industry was destroyed in the late 70’s when ironically a Labour government negotiated a 5% pay freeze with private sector unions. The unions broke ranks and Vauxhall workers demanded 17%. The industry never recovered - the winter of discontent began

Vauxhall still make cars in the UK don't they?

Workers cannot be expected to sustain deflated wages, I'm really not sure what the benefit of not maintaining doctors' pay with inflation is?

 

[fernandopartridge]

An example of a condition could’ve been you don’t strike if you get at least inflationary pay rises for the next x years ? Junior doctors could currently strike next year even if they are offered an inflation pay rise

Also, this is public money, why wouldn’t everyone want things to improve if it was possible and not detrimental to the individuals ?

ps do people even know that he BMA voted to limit/restrict the amount of medical students in 2008 ?!

BMA meeting: Doctors vote to limit number of medical students

Delegates at the annual BMA conference voted by a narrow majority to restrict the number of places at medical schools to avoid “overproduction of doctors with limited career opportunities.” They also agreed on a complete ban on opening new medical schools. David Sochart, from Manchester and...

www.bmj.com

That sounds good, if they were offered a contractual guarantee of inflationary pay increases every year they would no doubt agree not to strike about pay, great idea.

 

[shmmeee]

Vauxhall still make cars in the UK don't they?

Workers cannot be expected to sustain deflated wages, I'm really not sure what the benefit of not maintaining doctors' pay with inflation is?

Makes all the people who aren’t doctors feel better about being poor.

 

[OffenhamSkyBlue]

This suggests it’s about £60k! (Assuming Google currency conversion isnworking)

The average Dane

See the average Dane's salary, life expectancy, favorite holiday destinations and much more.

www.dst.dk

Well quite! If our median salary was £60K, we could all afford to pay more taxes - and those who are paid £60K pay FAR more in tax (due to the fixed basic rate tax threshold). So that adds to your previous threads where you have said everyone in this country needs to be paid A LOT more! Not just junior doctors, not just train drivers, but teachers, scientists (public, private and third sector), nursery and adult care workers.

But .. WHERE does that money come from? It's a nice (if somewhat utopian) idea, but most companies would go under, and the public purse can't afford to pay that to public sector workers. Is Denmark a very cheap company to run, i wonder? What is their health provision, for example?

 

[shmmeee]

Well quite! If our median salary was £60K, we could all afford to pay more taxes - and those who are paid £60K pay FAR more in tax (due to the fixed basic rate tax threshold). So that adds to your previous threads where you have said everyone in this country needs to be paid A LOT more! Not just junior doctors, not just train drivers, but teachers, scientists (public, private and third sector), nursery and adult care workers.

But .. WHERE does that money come from? It's a nice (if somewhat utopian) idea, but most companies would go under, and the public purse can't afford to pay that to public sector workers. Is Denmark a very cheap company to run, i wonder? What is their health provision, for example?

Productivity improvements is the only answer I’ve got.

 

[chiefdave]

Productivity improvements is the only answer I’ve got.

Not striking me as a country where they’re working themselves until they drop tbh, if anything it seems the opposite.

If you wander past office blocks around 5pm they’ve already emptied out and locked up. I’m often in the office until 7 or 8pm and I’m sure I’m not the only one.

Maybe the question should be if they can do it why can’t we? The appearance here is very much of a happy and healthy population, what are they doing that we aren’t?

 

[chiefdave]

Something needs to change. People need some hope.

We’ve got teenagers now who have known nothing but austerity. Spent their entire lives being told there’s no money and we need to accept some ‘pain’, all while the rich get richer as money flows to the top at an unprecedented rate.

‘Happiness recession’: UK 15-year-olds at bottom of European satisfaction league

Quarter of British teenagers in age group report low life satisfaction, compared with 7% of their Dutch peers

www.theguardian.com

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Not striking me as a country where they’re working themselves until they drop tbh, if anything it seems the opposite.

If you wander past office blocks around 5pm they’ve already emptied out and locked up. I’m often in the office until 7 or 8pm and I’m sure I’m not the only one.

Maybe the question should be if they can do it why can’t we? The appearance here is very much of a happy and healthy population, what are they doing that we aren’t?

They haven’t had a Maggie Thatcher come along to persuade the country that there is no such thing as society, would be my observation

 

[shmmeee]

Not striking me as a country where they’re working themselves until they drop tbh, if anything it seems the opposite.

If you wander past office blocks around 5pm they’ve already emptied out and locked up. I’m often in the office until 7 or 8pm and I’m sure I’m not the only one.

Maybe the question should be if they can do it why can’t we? The appearance here is very much of a happy and healthy population, what are they doing that we aren’t?

Productivity isn’t about hours worked as much as impact of those hours. If their businesses invest in automation or other tech, if their time isn’t spent waiting in traffic, if their staff are skilled, etc.

Not an expert but from what I understand the UKs productivity issues stem from a mix of workers not being able to go where it’s most productive due to London being where all the productive jobs are and housing and transport being expensive, and SMEs not being particularly productive. Not sure why the latter exactly.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Productivity isn’t about hours worked as much as impact of those hours. If their businesses invest in automation or other tech, if their time isn’t spent waiting in traffic, if their staff are skilled, etc.

Not an expert but from what I understand the UKs productivity issues stem from a mix of workers not being able to go where it’s most productive due to London being where all the productive jobs are and housing and transport being expensive, and SMEs not being particularly productive. Not sure why the latter exactly.

To ask a very naive question, but how is it quantified?

 

[shmmeee]

To ask a very naive question, but how is it quantified?

Id assume output divided by hours worked.

Obviously different in some sectors. Teaching for example output is exam grades, the ONS are currently reviewing how they do it and admit for things like Defence they have no idea.

Public Services Productivity Review progress report - Office for National Statistics

Update on progress toward making improvements to public services productivity measures as part of the Public Services Productivity Review.

www.ons.gov.uk

 

[chiefdave]

Productivity isn’t about hours worked as much as impact of those hours. If their businesses invest in automation or other tech, if their time isn’t spent waiting in traffic, if their staff are skilled, etc.

Not an expert but from what I understand the UKs productivity issues stem from a mix of workers not being able to go where it’s most productive due to London being where all the productive jobs are and housing and transport being expensive, and SMEs not being particularly productive. Not sure why the latter exactly.

This is probably why we’re fucked. We will ignore evidence because the vibes feel wrong. Look at the reaction to mention of things like working from home, 4 day week, UBI.

I’ve worked for a fair number of SMEs and they’re largely run by people who don’t really know what they’re doing and are just stumbling along. We seem to have a hell of a lot of SMEs, wonder how we compare to other countries.

 

[MalcSB]

I wonder how this will be received. I don’t smoke and gave up vaping 12 months ago so doesn’t affect me, but it seems wrong in principle to ban smoking and vaping in the open air - including outside football grounds.

Keir Starmer does not rule out outdoor smoking ban proposal

Leaked Whitehall documents reveal plans to extend indoor smoking ban to certain outside spaces, such as pub gardens

www.theguardian.com

 

[shmmeee]

I wonder how this will be received. I don’t smoke and gave up vaping 12 months ago so doesn’t affect me, but it seems wrong in principle to ban smoking in the open air.

Keir Starmer does not rule out outdoor smoking ban proposal

Leaked Whitehall documents reveal plans to extend indoor smoking ban to certain outside spaces, such as pub gardens

www.theguardian.com

I think it’s bollocks. But I thought the smoking ban was bollocks too.

Just fucking ban it if that’s what you want and stop trying to do it through the back door.

 

[MalcSB]

I think it’s bollocks. But I thought the smoking ban was bollocks too.

Just fucking ban it if that’s what you want and stop trying to do it through the back door.

That’s exactly how I feel. However, god knows how much other taxes would have to be raised to make up for the loss of tobacco duty.

 

[MalcSB]

I think it’s bollocks. But I thought the smoking ban was bollocks too.

Just fucking ban it if that’s what you want and stop trying to do it through the back door.

At least it would promote entrepreneurs as they develop county lines to sell contraband tobacco products.

 

[shmmeee]

At least it would promote entrepreneurs as they develop county lines to sell contraband tobacco products.

Abd we’ve just developed a lung cancer vaccine! Smoking has never been healthier!

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

If people want to breathe that shite in then they can do it in the comfort of their own homes, but polluting the air or public places with it can get in the bin.

 

[shmmeee]

If people want to breathe that shite in then they can do it in the comfort of their own homes, but polluting the air or public places with it can get in the bin.

So I can’t smoke in my home or car because of kids, can’t smoke indoors anywhere public, now can’t smoke outdoors either, I assume not in my garden for the same logic as my house and car.

As I say, just stop fannying about and ban it. At least illegal tobacco is cheap.

 

[MalcSB]

So I can’t smoke in my home or car because of kids, can’t smoke indoors anywhere public, now can’t smoke outdoors either, I assume not in my garden for the same logic as my house and car.

As I say, just stop fannying about and ban it. At least illegal tobacco is cheap.

I smell more cannabis smoke when I’m out and about than tobacco these days. At least that’s what MrsMalc tells me it is.

 

[OffenhamSkyBlue]

To ask a very naive question, but how is it quantified?

You bloody scientists! Well, chemists
You'll be asking if the results are reproducible next!!

 

[SkyBlueMatt]

I wonder how this will be received. I don’t smoke and gave up vaping 12 months ago so doesn’t affect me, but it seems wrong in principle to ban smoking and vaping in the open air - including outside football grounds.

Keir Starmer does not rule out outdoor smoking ban proposal

Leaked Whitehall documents reveal plans to extend indoor smoking ban to certain outside spaces, such as pub gardens

www.theguardian.com

Yet another moronic, time wasting plan. I don't smoke but just let people get on with it. There are so many more important things that could be discussed.

I don't know why but Jeremy Clarkson came into my mind, the bloke is an absolute knob but sometimes, just sometimes he makes a good point. I would imagine whatever he has to say about this. I'd agree with.

Though this is likely more exaggerated clickbait nonsense to get people interacting.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

You bloody scientists! Well, chemists
You'll be asking if the results are reproducible next!!

I come from a working environment where I have to provide proof that room temperature is actually 25