Do you want to discuss boring politics? (34 Viewers)

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CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
Brighton Sky Blue said:
To be honest Steve I've kind of given up on hoping that the government can do me or the country much good. Certainly neither of these parties in their current forms anyway.
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Cant really disagree with that but let’s wait and see. My frustration (once again) was that we all know one of the main restrictions on nhs capacity is social care due to bed blocking (horrible phrase i know) and yet in the budget I see we’re chucking 22bn extra into the money pit of the nhs and next to fuck all for social care. It was the thing that jumped out immediately on Wednesday

I think I’ve mentioned before on average we have something like 15% of beds blocked, not all care related but a significant proportion and in some parts of the country, it’s a lot higher. Chuck £5bn of the nhs additional spend there and I’d imagine it would make more of a difference and/or at least have a plan around training, staffing and SC capacity to demonstrate its front of mind.

My other frustration was for all the talk of growth there appears very little growth policy in reality and many commentators suggest the increase in emp’er NIC will have the opposite affect…heard on the radio earlier saying this will also negatively impact social care 🤦‍♂️

Willing to see how it plays out though and let’s be honest, the Tories are in an almighty mess so we have to all hope and pray the current government can deliver at least in the short term
 
C

CovValleyBoy

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
You’re wrong. This predates both. Both have hurt us but it’s out fundamental issues around poor productivity and low growth that have been an issue since the 2008 crash.

Lockdown is a red herring. All the data shows even without official lockdown people avoided crowded places during the pandemic. All lockdown did was ensure businesses got furloughed rather than dying on their arse from lack of footfall.
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MalcSB said:
Ha ha.
TBH I just got sick of the repeated sob story and generalisation over and over again. It is hysteria.

I don’t know anyone who owns more than the property they live in.

The issue seems to be availability of affordable housing as starter homes which are of no interest to the average boomer.

Students are the problem. There are now 2,940,000 of them in the UK, of which over 600,000 are from abroad. The number of accepted applicants increased by 86% between 1994 and 2023. Non-EU overseas students have increased by 507%.

They all need somehere to live and I’ve seen enough complaining on here and other media about how swathes of properties are being converted in to student accommodation. I’m sure boomer students are in a minority.
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Nick said:
Why do so many people struggle to see that business as in Amazon or Tesco is a completely different world to a small business with less than 10 employees?

It's all well and good people pulling their cocks off about private schools, employers and landlords being hit thinking it's going to make a difference to the elite people.

It's not, it's going to be Dave the electrician who's built a business and has a handful of employees. Isn't massively well off but put his kid into Henry's to do his best for them.

It's the same when people demand all of these rights like "full sick pay and maternity from day one". Have they ever run or worked in a small business or are they just used to working at a big company / councils etc.
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Applaud the last paragraph.
 
P

PVA

Well-Known Member
Nick said:
Why do so many people struggle to see that business as in Amazon or Tesco is a completely different world to a small business with less than 10 employees?

It's all well and good people pulling their cocks off about private schools, employers and landlords being hit thinking it's going to make a difference to the elite people.

It's not, it's going to be Dave the electrician who's built a business and has a handful of employees. Isn't massively well off but put his kid into Henry's to do his best for them.

It's the same when people demand all of these rights like "full sick pay and maternity from day one". Have they ever run or worked in a small business or are they just used to working at a big company / councils etc.
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It won't cost Dave the electrician a penny.
 
P

PVA

Well-Known Member
Nick said:
Won't it?
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Well without knowing the exact payroll details of your mate Dave no it shouldn't, as they've increased the employment allowance from 5k to 10k for the very reason you mention - so it doesn't affect small businesses.
 
MalcSB

MalcSB

Well-Known Member
CCFCSteve said:
Cant really disagree with that but let’s wait and see. My frustration (once again) was that we all know one of the main restrictions on nhs capacity is social care due to bed blocking (horrible phrase i know) and yet in the budget I see we’re chucking 22bn extra into the money pit of the nhs and next to fuck all for social care. It was the thing that jumped out immediately on Wednesday

I think I’ve mentioned before on average we have something like 15% of beds blocked, not all care related but a significant proportion and in some parts of the country, it’s a lot higher. Chuck £5bn of the nhs additional spend there and I’d imagine it would make more of a difference and/or at least have a plan around training, staffing and SC capacity to demonstrate its front of mind.

My other frustration was for all the talk of growth there appears very little growth policy in reality and many commentators suggest the increase in emp’er NIC will have the opposite affect…heard on the radio earlier saying this will also negatively impact social care 🤦‍♂️

Willing to see how it plays out though and let’s be honest, the Tories are in an almighty mess so we have to all hope and pray the current government can deliver at least in the short term
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I wonder if the £22 bn for the NHS includes the “cover” for the additional NICs, if so that will be lost to services. Social care stands every chance of getting worse with the cumulative effects of NICs, minimum wage (staff deserve in excess of that) and the workers rights being proposed.

Bed blocking is an accurate description. People who no longer require medical care but unable to look after themselves at home - and families can’t be counted on to help them sufficiently these days - need support, either at home or in a care home. If that isn’t available, very difficult for a hospital to discharge them.
 
Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
CCFCSteve said:
Cant really disagree with that but let’s wait and see. My frustration (once again) was that we all know one of the main restrictions on nhs capacity is social care due to bed blocking (horrible phrase i know) and yet in the budget I see we’re chucking 22bn extra into the money pit of the nhs and next to fuck all for social care. It was the thing that jumped out immediately on Wednesday

I think I’ve mentioned before on average we have something like 15% of beds blocked, not all care related but a significant proportion and in some parts of the country, it’s a lot higher. Chuck £5bn of the nhs additional spend there and I’d imagine it would make more of a difference and/or at least have a plan around training, staffing and SC capacity to demonstrate its front of mind.

My other frustration was for all the talk of growth there appears very little growth policy in reality and many commentators suggest the increase in emp’er NIC will have the opposite affect…heard on the radio earlier saying this will also negatively impact social care 🤦‍♂️

Willing to see how it plays out though and let’s be honest, the Tories are in an almighty mess so we have to all hope and pray the current government can deliver at least in the short term
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I agree this is a mistake/oversight.

Social care is on its knees and councils are failing because of underfunding, all of which is having a knock-on effect on the NHS.

Whilst the extra funding is welcome, I don't think it'll have a difference until we look at the root causes of the NHS' problems, a big one of which is social care
 
chiefdave

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Social care is on its knees and councils are failing because of underfunding, all of which is having a knock-on effect on the NHS.
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Social care funding needs to be managed centrally, probably by the NHS or at least in partnership with them

The amount of meetings, forms etc I have to deal with going between the NHS and the council is insane. Can’t even begin to imagine how much is being lost on unneeded admin
 
Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
chiefdave said:
Social care funding needs to be managed centrally, probably by the NHS or at least in partnership with them

The amount of meetings, forms etc I have to deal with going between the NHS and the council is insane. Can’t even begin to imagine how much is being lost on unneeded admin
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I agree. it's too big to devolve to LA's.

But some bright spark saw how the government could make the books look better if they did without thinking about the big picture and, most crucially, the effect of those people requiring it.
 
fernandopartridge

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
After a budget that showed Labour does indeed have no ideas, it's time to pivot to the favourite distraction technique of the Tories



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shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
fernandopartridge said:
After a budget that showed Labour does indeed have no ideas, it's time to pivot to the favourite distraction technique of the Tories



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The most left wing budget in our lifetime. Of course you don’t like it 🤦‍♂️

The next five years are going to be Biden Mk2 aren’t they? The left proving why no one in power should ever listen to them.

And immigration is the second highest voter concern at 44% only one point behind the NHS, even if you wish it wasn’t.

Grow up man.
 
MalcSB

MalcSB

Well-Known Member
One for the spreadsheet gurus

Rachel Reeves ““I’m not going to be able to write five years worth of budgets on this show today, but there’s no need to come back with another Budget like this, we’ll never need to do that again.”
 
fernandopartridge

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
The most left wing budget in our lifetime. Of course you don’t like it

The next five years are going to be Biden Mk2 aren’t they? The left proving why no one in power should ever listen to them.

And immigration is the second highest voter concern at 44% only one point behind the NHS, even if you wish it wasn’t.

Grow up man.
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Immigration is a voter concern because voters have seen their living standards decline and the state of the public, services and realm and infrastructure deteriorate. It's popular to blame it on immigrants and Labour are leaning right into that, rather than addressing some of those root causes.



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Grendel

Grendel

Well-Known Member
PVA said:
Actually going further on this, not only will it not cost Dave the electrician a penny, he might even be better off
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It will cost SMEs significantly
 
shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
fernandopartridge said:
Immigration is a voter concern because voters have seen their living standards decline and the state of the public, services and realm and infrastructure deteriorate. It's popular to blame it on immigrants and Labour are leaning right into that, rather than addressing some of those root causes.



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This is such condescending nonsense. Immigration is unpopular across the western world regardless of the state of infrastructure and public services. Denmark, Netherlands, US, Germany, Canada all tightening immigration in response to public opinion.
 
fernandopartridge

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
This is such condescending nonsense. Immigration is unpopular across the western world regardless of the state of infrastructure and public services. Denmark, Netherlands, US, Germany, Canada all tightening immigration in response to public opinion.
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Economy is the number 1 concern according to Statista

www.statista.com

Most important issues facing Britain 2024 | Statista

In the weeks before the next UK election on July 4, 2024, the economy was seen by voters as the main problem facing the country, ahead of several other issues.
www.statista.com www.statista.com

As it has been for a very long time

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shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
fernandopartridge said:
Economy is the number 1 concern according to Statista

www.statista.com

Most important issues facing Britain 2024 | Statista

In the weeks before the next UK election on July 4, 2024, the economy was seen by voters as the main problem facing the country, ahead of several other issues.
www.statista.com www.statista.com

As it has been for a very long time

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Ah I must have misread YouGov. Not sure it changes much. You or I may have no issue with the levels of immigration but a huge chunk of the country do and you can argue over why but the basics of democracy should dictate that it’s an important issue to the government.

We’ve had a budget that has taxed the rich, loosed the purse strings on borrowing, and promised huge investment in health and education, while mostly not scaring the horses (OBR fuck up aside). It’s a good Labour budget.

A large number of voters want action on immigration, including small boats and tax avoiding vape shops/barbers. I have no issue with Labour responding to that. Partly because they’ll actually try and fix it unlike the Tories who milked it for votes by gumming the system up. The best thing Labour can do for immigration concerns is process the backlog of applications and either kick people out or get them working and supporting themselves rather than living in hotels and barges.
 
Ring Of Steel

Ring Of Steel

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
Ah I must have misread YouGov. Not sure it changes much. You or I may have no issue with the levels of immigration but a huge chunk of the country do and you can argue over why but the basics of democracy should dictate that it’s an important issue to the government.

We’ve had a budget that has taxed the rich, loosed the purse strings on borrowing, and promised huge investment in health and education, while mostly not scaring the horses (OBR fuck up aside). It’s a good Labour budget.

A large number of voters want action on immigration, including small boats and tax avoiding vape shops/barbers. I have no issue with Labour responding to that. Partly because they’ll actually try and fix it unlike the Tories who milked it for votes by gumming the system up. The best thing Labour can do for immigration concerns is process the backlog of applications and either kick people out or get them working and supporting themselves rather than living in hotels and barges.
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I also think many people say “the economy” because it’s just engrained into people to say it, and not everyone wants to say “immigration” as their biggest concern- my opinion would be that immigration evokes much more visceral & deep seated views in people than the economy ever could. And no, I am not accusing people of being racist, but I would argue it’s way more emotional a topic than, say, the budget will ever be. Most people in the general public wouldn’t take much interest beyond ‘what does it mean for me’. And not everyone understands the principles underpinning the economy, everyone immediately has a reaction when even the word “immigration” is used, I’d say it’s the number one issue guaranteed to get peoples’ attention right now.
 
Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Ring Of Steel said:
I also think many people say “the economy” because it’s just engrained into people to say it, and not everyone wants to say “immigration” as their biggest concern- my opinion would be that immigration evokes much more visceral & deep seated views in people than the economy ever could. And no, I am not accusing people of being racist, but I would argue it’s way more emotional a topic than, say, the budget will ever be. Most people in the general public wouldn’t take much interest beyond ‘what does it mean for me’. And not everyone understands the principles underpinning the economy, everyone immediately has a reaction when even the word “immigration” is used, I’d say it’s the number one issue guaranteed to get peoples’ attention right now.
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You say not everyone understands the principles underpinning the economy, but I'd say just as many don't understand the principles underpinning immigration nor the related services they feel are harmed almost solely because it.

People do care about the economy even if they don't understand it, even if it is just relating to their own situation - can they afford more or less? But I'd say that was the same with immigration - it's just how it affects them. Can they get a doctors appointment or other public services, housing etc. If those things were fine most people wouldn't care about immigration and mot of those that still would would basically be xenophobes.
 
Ring Of Steel

Ring Of Steel

Well-Known Member
Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
You say not everyone understands the principles underpinning the economy, but I'd say just as many don't understand the principles underpinning immigration nor the related services they feel are harmed almost solely because it.

People do care about the economy even if they don't understand it, even if it is just relating to their own situation - can they afford more or less? But I'd say that was the same with immigration - it's just how it affects them. Can they get a doctors appointment or other public services, housing etc. If those things were fine most people wouldn't care about immigration and mot of those that still would would basically be xenophobes.
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I agree that people don’t understand immigration either, what I’m saying is that immigration gets people a lot more fired up than the economy. The way it’s been engineered, people have learned to fear immigration, they don’t tend to fear tax rates.
 
MalcSB

MalcSB

Well-Known Member
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Grendel

Grendel

Well-Known Member
chiefdave said:
What was the thinking behind them never being tied to inflation? Surely someone should have seen an issue coming down the line.
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Labour didn’t. Last year on question time Phillipson said fees wouldn’t go up
 
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