clint van damme
Well-Known Member
Been there. No.
Though if a black.person said all white people are gammons then possibly.
Same as calling a black person a roadman isn't but saying all black men are road men.probably is.
Nobody was called that.
If a black person calls a white person a Gammon or Karen, is that racist?
Let's look at what's actually been said.Nit getting into specifics. Just saying it’s reasonable for people to ask for a solid definition of you’re going to judge them by whether they follow it or not.
If you say “all comparisons between animals and POC are racist” then fair enough, but you can’t say “all things called racist by POC are racist”. That implies POC are somehow other as they don’t make mistakes or have biases that white people have.
Either that, or as Nick says, you’ve got to accept him saying gammon is a racist term.
Let's look at what's actually been said.
- Akinfenwa has not called anybody racist
- He has not considered it to be meant as a racial slur
- He has taken offence at being compared to a fat Water Buffalo (the connotations of savage, stupid, slow on the uptake and also of speed,, but strong, among many, are obvious), and considered that a racial slur he would rather not have directed at him again.
Nobody is condemning the person who said it, nobody is casting any aspersions on their character, nobody is suggesting there are any hard feelings afterwards. What is being suggested is, please take my feelings on board next time and, if possible, adapt your behaviour accordingly.
What, actually, is wrong with that? The only people who are questioning somebody's character are those questioning Akinfenwa.
But we aren’t talking about work or in law are we? No one is demanding the water buffalo guy is arrested. It’s the social castigation for “lesser racism” that’s the issue.
People do not like being called racist. That’s a good thing. But if they feel it’s a term with no meaning or a set of rules they can’t reasonably be expected to follow they’ll stop being concerned by the word at all. And without social power it’s nothing really.
Similar to sexual assault during me too. Once you collapse everything into a binary racist/not racist then you lose all nuance and either have to judge everything by the legal bar or lower the legal bar to the societal one.
So it has to be clear cut. Snidey, underhand, ambiguous then just ignore it? Incredible.
Been there. No.
Though if a black.person said all white people are gammons then possibly.
Same as calling a black person a roadman isn't but saying all black men are road men.probably is.
But that's where it's being twisted to! It's not saying everything is therefore racist if a black man says it's racist, it's saying that this black man feels it's racist,. and instead of looking at it, seeing the obvious connotations, and moving on, a bunch of white people are telling him it isn't racist!To be clear I have no issue with what Akinfenwa has said and I get that he’s picked up a minor example because right now he doesn’t want to let it go and it’s the example that appeared. His statement was balanced and fair.
I’m simply talking about the general point of “it’s racist if someone black says it’s racist”.
Let's look at what's actually been said.
- Akinfenwa has not called anybody racist
- He has not considered it to be meant as a racial slur
- He has taken offence at being compared to a fat Water Buffalo (the connotations of savage, stupid, slow on the uptake and also of speed,, but strong, among many, are obvious), and considered that a racial slur he would rather not have directed at him again.
Nobody is condemning the person who said it, nobody is casting any aspersions on their character, nobody is suggesting there are any hard feelings afterwards. What is being suggested is, please take my feelings on board next time and, if possible, adapt your behaviour accordingly.
What, actually, is wrong with that? The only people who are questioning somebody's character are those questioning Akinfenwa.
Yes but nobody said all Black Men are buffaloes did they? They said it about a guy who had compared himself to one and also is a lot bigger than the average person.
You can quite easily rule out gammon being offensive or racist as a slur though?
But that's where it's being twisted to! It's not saying everything is therefore racist if a black man says it's racist, it's saying that this black man feels it's racist,. and instead of looking at it, seeing the obvious connotations, and moving on, a bunch of white people are telling him it isn't racist!
Whereas the easier option is not to call him it, rather than deny him that voice!
Again, context. Are you saying comparing a black man to a large black animal can't be a racist slur?
But that's where it's being twisted to! It's not saying everything is therefore racist if a black man says it's racist, it's saying that this black man feels it's racist,. and instead of looking at it, seeing the obvious connotations, and moving on, a bunch of white people are telling him it isn't racist!
Whereas the easier option is not to call him it, rather than deny him that voice!
No! They're saying it's blindingly obvious connotations, and to deny him that voice when he articulates them is, in fact, continuation of the same power relations that see black people marginalised, dehumanised, and denied a voice in society!Maybe it's because you have people saying "If he thinks it is racist then it is, don't question it" or "he has been racially abused, don't question it".
Do you think comparing a pink, slightly red man's skin to gammon isn't a racist slur?
He is! His view is considered irrelevant, inferior, and invalid. His voice has been tossed away, disregarded... mocked even. For what reason? What does it gain?He’s not being denied a voice though?
No! They're saying it's blindingly obvious connotations, and to deny him that voice when he articulates them is, in fact, continuation of the same power relations that see black people marginalised, dehumanised, and denied a voice in society!
Most of the questioning is probably down to him, himself posting that comparison on social media.
If I didn't want to be called something I wouldn't post pictures on social media, clearly inferring the comparison.
I explained that in the post you're quoting!! If you're not going to acknowledge that distinction, about how something can be considered a racial slur, but the person saying it is neither racist, nor intending it to be,, then there's no way forward.He clearly did consider it to be racist, hence he wrote a statement to the media about it?
He is! His view is considered irrelevant, inferior, and invalid. His voice has been tossed away, disregarded... mocked even. For what reason? What does it gain?
We'll someone has to decide don't they?
If it's some of the posters on here nothing would be off limits!
As I said the black community should be the biggest voice in that decision but they shouldn't be the sole one, or it's open to abuse.
The argument being put forward is that if someone takes it as racist then it is racist. So that has to work both ways. If a black person see's a white blond kid with glasses and calls him the Milky Bar Kid which was due to the strikingly similarity of them to that character rather than intentionally racist, if the white kid says "he was being racist" is it automatically racist because he believes it to be even if it wasn't the intention. They may have intended it to be derogatory, but not intended it to be racist. The character just happens to have white skin.
But that's a potential rabbit hole. You've then potentially got people just using it as a handy cover for their behaviour saying "I thought that was racist" regardless of context and it would have to be deemed as such. Say there's a black person working in the office and they're lazy and are told as such. They respond with "I find that racist as it's playing on sterotypes of black people being lazy". According to what's been suggested if you send that to HR for arbitration the only ruling they could make is it's racist because the rules state that if a black person deems it racist it's racist. Even though it wasn't. It's because they're actually lazy.
Of course someone can say coco pops is racist but I don't think it would be taken seriously would it?
And it wouldn't be decided by one person would it. Silly example so.its not dangerous ground because the example is nonsense.
Same as your fight example, if you use derogatory racist slurs and there's witnesses then.it racist.
If you don't and there's witnesses then.its not. I can't believe I have to explain that it's straight forward.
this is all a bit silly. Out of interest if Meghan markle was overweight And rather less photogenic and was portrayed in a cartoon as I don’t know an obese Ugly black wart hog would that be racist?
You always do the troll thing when you know you've lost . Nice winking emoji.you are a poor troll who pretends to be a teacher for some reason, I have no plans to interact with you this fine evening, therefore I suggest you go somewhere else and cast your net
There's a new teenage black magazine out this week called "Cocoa". That's acceptable. Calling a black person a cocoa monkey is unacceptable.If I was a black man and was called a coco pop monkey then absolutely, I'd think you were a racist c**t!
Fat water buffalo - reference to his physical appearance / abilityLet's look at what's actually been said.
- Akinfenwa has not called anybody racist
- He has not considered it to be meant as a racial slur
- He has taken offence at being compared to a fat Water Buffalo (the connotations of savage, stupid, slow on the uptake and also of speed,, but strong, among many, are obvious), and considered that a racial slur he would rather not have directed at him again.
Nobody is condemning the person who said it, nobody is casting any aspersions on their character, nobody is suggesting there are any hard feelings afterwards. What is being suggested is, please take my feelings on board next time and, if possible, adapt your behaviour accordingly.
What, actually, is wrong with that? The only people who are questioning somebody's character are those questioning Akinfenwa.
I like this. Clearly there is inconsistency . A white person, based on the above, is less likely to find sympathy for deeming something to be racist, than a black person. It very much seems to be "if in doubt, squeal racism" (they're my words of course) and this i find intensely infuriating. You're pointing out a problem that is going to cause all sorts of problems and not least of all to the black community. Effectively playing the race card when there clearly isn't a case of racism is almost as bad as using racist language in the first place. Anyone who does that is effectively taking advantage of their race to gain advantage over another group or employer. Some would say that's what white people have been doing for decades and more. It doesn't make it right though.As I said the black community should be the biggest voice in that decision but they shouldn't be the sole one, or it's open to abuse.
The argument being put forward is that if someone takes it as racist then it is racist. So that has to work both ways. If a black person see's a white blond kid with glasses and calls him the Milky Bar Kid which was due to the strikingly similarity of them to that character rather than intentionally racist, if the white kid says "he was being racist" is it automatically racist because he believes it to be even if it wasn't the intention. They may have intended it to be derogatory, but not intended it to be racist. The character just happens to have white skin.
But that's a potential rabbit hole. You've then potentially got people just using it as a handy cover for their behaviour saying "I thought that was racist" regardless of context and it would have to be deemed as such. Say there's a black person working in the office and they're lazy and are told as such. They respond with "I find that racist as it's playing on sterotypes of black people being lazy". According to what's been suggested if you send that to HR for arbitration the only ruling they could make is it's racist because the rules state that if a black person deems it racist it's racist. Even though it wasn't. It's because they're actually lazy.
Well, that's the band Kaiser Chiefs fucked, I'd like to see them talk their way out of this one!!Exeter Chiefs Rugby club have been hunted down by the social justice gestapo and told to change their name and logo. The ended up ditching their mascot (a native american version of sky blue sam) but they've kept the rest.
When the group lobbying for the change were asked who got offended, they said they had contacted some native american people to get their opinion. Basically, they went looking for who they could find that got offended.
Shit like this dilutes the real problems.
What’s the name of the group lobbying for the change?Exeter Chiefs Rugby club have been hunted down by the social justice gestapo and told to change their name and logo. The ended up ditching their mascot (a native american version of sky blue sam) but they've kept the rest.
When the group lobbying for the change were asked who got offended, they said they had contacted some native american people to get their opinion. Basically, they went looking for who they could find that got offended.
Shit like this dilutes the real problems.
Who is saying it should considered racist if a black person says it is I havent.
But
And what is your and nicks obsession with the milky bar kid?
You do realise I'm not arguing that the water bufallo comparison is racist. I'm arguing that if Akinfenwa was offended by the comment he has every right to speak out.
Water buffalo is black right? It's more of a reference to him beining a beast anyway. All things black people have to put up with
Who was that big white guy that played upfront for Bradford or hull I think. Scored loads of headers. Heard him referred to as a tank or big lump. Never a "beast"
Wait, you are going to now try to claim people calling him a beast are racist too?
That's awkward.
I am saying black people are commonly referred to as beasts or savages and that's why water buffalo remark probably comes from someone who sees black people in that way knowing or unknowingly
Like the commentary bias report that came out about black players being praised for power and pace but not intelligence
All different ways black people can suffer racism without the N word being used
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