Maggie Thatcher has died (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Nick
- Start date
Nonleagueherewecome
Well-Known Member
Ask all the fans who still vilify Richardson. To some of them SISU are blameless because of him.
This is NOT about blaming her for that at all-although many of us do. To me and the vast majority of my friends and family, it's about rejoicing in her death, and wanting it to be acknowledged by a fawning worldwide media (not helped by the BBC nor the terrible The Iron Lady movie) that she was not the heroic figure that she is being dressed up as.
Otis
Well-Known Member
Trouble is she changed everything. It was so radical we are going to continue to feel the repercussions of it for many a year to come.
The damage was severe and the cuts were deep and the scars still remain.
Otis
Well-Known Member
All I keep hearing is that she was a 'towering political figure' and 'she loved her country. '
That means nothing. Been some real despots who were towering political figures.
Thatcher's legacy lives on and lives on to our detriment.
Nonleagueherewecome
Well-Known Member
There's a strong argument that the present benefit reforms go much further than she ever could-yet of course it's thanks to her legacy that they are able to do so.
torchomatic
Well-Known Member
That'll be up to a point. While I don't think SISU are blameless - far from it - I lay a huge proportion of blame at the door of Richardson.
Couldn't agree more with your second paragraph.
Couldn't agree more with your second paragraph.
torchomatic
Well-Known Member
You're missing the point, I think. It's the things she did twenty/thirty years ago that are affecting all of us in 2013. Those poor decisions decades ago are still stifling the Britain we live in today.
cloughie
Well-Known Member
One thing she certainly wasn't was a democrat. Her abuse of the party whip in her second term given her majority essentially ensure that she could do whatever she wanted. No wonder she thought she was the Queen...I based my dissertation on it and got a good grade
She was heading towards dictatorship in her mind thats why they turned the knife behind her back ,.and not before time,
Now people have cheered over other dictators deaths and now no wonder some are having a party now she has gone
There will be no tears in my house
Bill Glazier
Active Member
Okay, some observations: Firstly,Thatcher didn't 'shut down' industries, she simply exposed them to competition and stopped subsidising them with taxpayers' money whilst cutting public spending. which resulted in a hefty (but short-lived) recession. The trouble was our industry was hopelessly inefficient and under-invested, largely due to a decade and a half of massive labour unrest, and great swathes disappeared as it was out-sourced. I've always thought this was stupid and short sighted and it would have been better to strategically protect some industries which could have survived to grow when conditions improved.
Secondly, when she came to power the public finances were a total shambles - Labour tend to do this as we've just discovered yet again. Privatising some industries where there was competition struck me as a good idea - the state didn't need to own British Airways or the disastrous British Leyland - but I'm less sure if natural monopolies like the utilities should have been sold off, but then again, the unions had their claws in them and the government couldn't afford to invest tuppence in them, so maybe it was the right decision.
Thirdly, I don't think Thatcher foresaw how her reforms would lead to the rampant spivvery, greed and dishonesty we now see at the top - maybe she should have - I think she thought we'd become industrious patriots, a bit like the Germans.
Fourthly, I don't suppose she knew where the Falklands were til it all kicked off - nobody did. Someone at the Foreign Office should have seen that one coming, and if I'm right the foreign Secretary resigned over it.
I never particularly liked her, though I did vote for her twice, but I think the bitter loathing is a bit over the top. Must be something to do with her snooty accent I suppose.
Secondly, when she came to power the public finances were a total shambles - Labour tend to do this as we've just discovered yet again. Privatising some industries where there was competition struck me as a good idea - the state didn't need to own British Airways or the disastrous British Leyland - but I'm less sure if natural monopolies like the utilities should have been sold off, but then again, the unions had their claws in them and the government couldn't afford to invest tuppence in them, so maybe it was the right decision.
Thirdly, I don't think Thatcher foresaw how her reforms would lead to the rampant spivvery, greed and dishonesty we now see at the top - maybe she should have - I think she thought we'd become industrious patriots, a bit like the Germans.
Fourthly, I don't suppose she knew where the Falklands were til it all kicked off - nobody did. Someone at the Foreign Office should have seen that one coming, and if I'm right the foreign Secretary resigned over it.
I never particularly liked her, though I did vote for her twice, but I think the bitter loathing is a bit over the top. Must be something to do with her snooty accent I suppose.
play_in_skyblue_stripes
Well-Known Member
Snooty accent was a false one. Completely false person.
I will never have any good word for Thatcher.
So far media seems and even Tories are not going over the top. Her controversial politics are being openly discussed. I think even the so called one nation Tories are ashamed by her. Ultra right wing still in support. Ever the diplomat Douglas Hurd said perhaps she should have left office sooner. The real truth about her WILL hopefully come out.
I will never have any good word for Thatcher.
So far media seems and even Tories are not going over the top. Her controversial politics are being openly discussed. I think even the so called one nation Tories are ashamed by her. Ultra right wing still in support. Ever the diplomat Douglas Hurd said perhaps she should have left office sooner. The real truth about her WILL hopefully come out.
WillieStanley
New Member
"There's no such thing as Society" Margaret Thatcher 1988
"There's no such thing as Margaret Thatcher" Society 2013
"There's no such thing as Margaret Thatcher" Society 2013
skybluegod
Well-Known Member
Liverpool fans are celebrating and tbh rightly so what she said and did about Hillsborough disaster was awful.
Delboycov
Active Member
Saw that slimeball David Mellor on This Morning earlier and when he was asked about accusations of her part in a cover up he said "Look she hated football...she thought all football fans were drunken thugs..and they were then..." Enough said really.
Delboycov
Active Member
A lot of the most gushing tributes I've seen on facebook etc have come from those that are clearly card carrying BNP members, their eulogising littered with racist language. Doesn't surprise me really though...
Grendel
Well-Known Member
So what sort of left wing policies would you have wanted in the 1980's? The Callaghan administration continuing perhaps? Propping up bloated useless industries, no gas or electricity, bins unemptied, tax at over 30%, going cap in hand to the IMF?
Good times. Or how about Michael foot? A bonkers CND anti Europe anti growth socialist and a voice peace for Marxist fools like scargill and jack jones.
If only eh?
SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
Can you reference this "negotiating"?
Grendel
Well-Known Member
This is not factually accurate. What the government were looking at doing was restricted uk citizenship to colonials such as the islanders.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Ironic really that failing industries were left to rot because we were over reliant on them and not profitable. Remind me which sector needed gigantic bailouts in 2008 and has been the cause of the current malaise? British car manufacturing didn't have to die-it could've been brought up to speed to compete. Just look at its current resurgence in the West Midlands, albeit under foreign owned brands.
torchomatic
Well-Known Member
1965 saw a United Nations resolution passed which requested that Britain and Argentina negotiate a solution to the sovereignty question with a view to finding a peaceful resolution to the problem. The next 17 years saw tortuous diplomatic negotiations as successive governments and negotiators on both sides sought to seek a compromise that was happy for the Argentines, for the British and, most critically of all, for the Falkland Islanders.
It did not help the Argentinian cause for a string of military governments to seize control of the country and rule with horrendous human rights' violations. The so-called 'Dirty War' saw myriad opponents of the regime 'disappeared'. They were often tortured and some were even thrown from aircraft or helicopters into the South Atlantic. Falkland Islanders naturally assumed that they might expect to end up as victims of these fascist military regimes should the Argentines take control of the islands. These military dictatorships had ruled Argentina on and off since the time of Peron at the end of the Second World War.
The British government found it diplomatically difficult to hand over 1,800 people who did not want to leave the protection of their mother country. There were various ideas floated for sharing or transferring elements of sovereignty.
Even as late as 1980, the British government under the direction of Nicholas Ridley was trying to push the idea of a 'leaseback', where the islands would be given to Argentina and then leased back by Britain for a 99 year period. Ridley had entered into secret negotiations with his Argentine counterpart to see if they could come to a compromise that would please both sides. But even this idea was too unpalatable to the Falkland Islanders who did not wish to cede any sovereignty to the Argentines under any circumstances and certainly not to one ruled by Fascist military juntas.
The Foreign Secretary, Lord Carrington, could see that the discussions were polarising opinion in the islands and making a deal less likely rather than more. Besides, he did not wish to put too much pressure on islanders who had access to a sympathetic lobby in Britain and especially amongst the Conservative establishment. Ridley was promoted out of his job and replaced by the more relaxed Richard Luce. Unfortunately, this relaxation in pushing the Falkland Islanders antagonised the Argentinians who were increasingly of the opinion that negotiations with the British were becoming pointless and were not going to see result in an eventual transfer of sovereignty. It did not help that Britain sent further confused messages to the Argentines when it came to demonstrating their continued long-term commitment to the islands.
It did not help the Argentinian cause for a string of military governments to seize control of the country and rule with horrendous human rights' violations. The so-called 'Dirty War' saw myriad opponents of the regime 'disappeared'. They were often tortured and some were even thrown from aircraft or helicopters into the South Atlantic. Falkland Islanders naturally assumed that they might expect to end up as victims of these fascist military regimes should the Argentines take control of the islands. These military dictatorships had ruled Argentina on and off since the time of Peron at the end of the Second World War.
The British government found it diplomatically difficult to hand over 1,800 people who did not want to leave the protection of their mother country. There were various ideas floated for sharing or transferring elements of sovereignty.
Even as late as 1980, the British government under the direction of Nicholas Ridley was trying to push the idea of a 'leaseback', where the islands would be given to Argentina and then leased back by Britain for a 99 year period. Ridley had entered into secret negotiations with his Argentine counterpart to see if they could come to a compromise that would please both sides. But even this idea was too unpalatable to the Falkland Islanders who did not wish to cede any sovereignty to the Argentines under any circumstances and certainly not to one ruled by Fascist military juntas.
The Foreign Secretary, Lord Carrington, could see that the discussions were polarising opinion in the islands and making a deal less likely rather than more. Besides, he did not wish to put too much pressure on islanders who had access to a sympathetic lobby in Britain and especially amongst the Conservative establishment. Ridley was promoted out of his job and replaced by the more relaxed Richard Luce. Unfortunately, this relaxation in pushing the Falkland Islanders antagonised the Argentinians who were increasingly of the opinion that negotiations with the British were becoming pointless and were not going to see result in an eventual transfer of sovereignty. It did not help that Britain sent further confused messages to the Argentines when it came to demonstrating their continued long-term commitment to the islands.
torchomatic
Well-Known Member
Mrs Thatcher helps to clean up our streets.
WillieStanley
New Member
Capitalism - Same face, different evil
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
I thought it was a Benny Hill world record attempt.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Amazing!! Only 11 in 82 so don't remember this negotiating!!
LewSkyBlue
New Member
Im too young to know about Maggie but how can the same person be branded as "the best leader we have ever had" by some people, and "the person that ruined our country" by others?
I mean, most people have a different view on politicians but generally agree they are complete ass wipes. How did this lady get such a "marmite" sort of reputation, i havent heard anyone give a split view really, its either she was amazing or she was the devil :S
I mean, most people have a different view on politicians but generally agree they are complete ass wipes. How did this lady get such a "marmite" sort of reputation, i havent heard anyone give a split view really, its either she was amazing or she was the devil :S
Cov City Daytrader 87
Well-Known Member
Don't know if you guys caught the story about Cher fans must of thought that their favourite pop star passed away when they saw this #nowthatchersdead.
[video=youtube;eUVtVhhzaDw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUVtVhhzaDw[/video]
[video=youtube;eUVtVhhzaDw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUVtVhhzaDw[/video]
what is going on here !! Campbell raising good points on Newsnight.
My view on the media and beeb lambasting the negative stance of the ambivilant and downright outraged who will dance on her grave, are that the lot in now are drawing a total parallel to her reign, and are potentially worried that a resurgance against the current crew could eminate from this loathing.:thinking about:
My view on the media and beeb lambasting the negative stance of the ambivilant and downright outraged who will dance on her grave, are that the lot in now are drawing a total parallel to her reign, and are potentially worried that a resurgance against the current crew could eminate from this loathing.:thinking about:
Nonleagueherewecome
Well-Known Member
It's hard not to draw a parallel between the present lot and her...they are her dirty spawn, after all. And I include Clegg in that-my dad always said when I was a kid "never trust a Lib Dem, they're just Tories trying to sound nice". He wasn't far wrong!
The ideology of this government is the same: slash benefits, kick sand in the eyes of Local Government, grind the poor into the dirt whilst the rich get richer.
TBH though Wingy, there wasn't any extra need for a backlash against this administration, there's plenty of hatred there already.
Brendan Rogers gained a lot of respect for his comments. I'd love to hear an attempt at a minutes silence for her in front of Anfield!
The ideology of this government is the same: slash benefits, kick sand in the eyes of Local Government, grind the poor into the dirt whilst the rich get richer.
TBH though Wingy, there wasn't any extra need for a backlash against this administration, there's plenty of hatred there already.
Brendan Rogers gained a lot of respect for his comments. I'd love to hear an attempt at a minutes silence for her in front of Anfield!
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
Well, it was standard punishment for heresy, but, Mary I faced backlash from excessively burning Protestants. You also measure the brutality of monarchs in that era and Phillip II was really, really bad.
For Henry, I was more referring to the dissolution of the monasteries - nasty business there.
Last edited:
Colonel Mustard
New Member
Ultimately a fair price to pay to break the papal hold over Britain. Whenever I see news reports about the Catholic hold in Africa and South America, I ask myself why Henry VIII gets such a bad rap.
Nonleagueherewecome
Well-Known Member
Not to mention that you can't judge comparatively out of historical cultural context; by that rationale pretty much every ruler pre-19th Century comes off badly. Thatcher was vicious by contemporary standards, and also changed cultural values. The modern underclass and the acceptability of private greed are things that modern society had previously strived to prevent, not embrace.
WillieStanley
New Member
And anyone who looks younger than me Makes me check for my wallet, my phone and my keys And I'm tired of being tired out Always being on the lookout for thieving gifts
We're all wondering how we ended up so scared We spent ten long years teaching our kids not to care And that there's no such thing as society anyway
And all the rich folks act surprised When all sense of community dies But you just closed your eyes to the other side Of all the things that she did Thatcher fucked the kids
And it seems a little bit rich to me The way the rich only ever talk of charity In times like the seventies, the broken down economy Meant even the upper tier was needing some help
But as soon as things look brighter Yeah the grin gets wider and the grip gets tighter And for every teenage tracksuit mugger There's a guy in a suit who wouldn't lift a finger for anybody else
You've got a generation raised on the welfare state Enjoyed all its benefits and did just great But as soon as they were settled as the richest of the rich They kicked away the ladder, told the rest of us that life's a bitch
And it's no surprise that all the fuck-ups Didn't show up until the kids had grown up But when no one ever smiles or ever helps a stranger Is it any fucking wonder our society's in danger of collapse?
So all the kids are bastards But don't blame them, yeah, they learn by example Blame the folks who sold the future for the highest bid That's right, Thatcher fucked the kids
Whatever happened to childhood? We're all scared of the kids in our neighborhood They're not small, charming and harmless They're a violent bunch of bastard little shits
And anyone who looks younger than me Makes me check for my wallet, my phone and my keys And I'm tired of being tired out Always being on the lookout for thieving gifts
We're all wondering how we ended up so scared We spent ten long years teaching our kids not to care And that there's no such thing as society anyway
And all the rich folks act surprised When all sense of community dies But you just closed your eyes to the other side Of all the things that she did Thatcher fucked the kids
And it seems a little bit rich to me The way the rich only ever talk of charity In times like the seventies, the broken down economy Meant even the upper tier was needing some help
But as soon as things look brighter Yeah the grin gets wider and the grip gets tighter And for every teenage tracksuit mugger There's a guy in a suit who wouldn't lift a finger for anybody else
You've got a generation raised on the welfare state Enjoyed all its benefits and did just great But as soon as they were settled as the richest of the rich They kicked away the ladder, told the rest of us that life's a bitch
And it's no surprise that all the fuck-ups Didn't show up until the kids had grown up But when no one ever smiles or ever helps a stranger Is it any fucking wonder our society's in danger of collapse?
So all the kids are bastards But don't blame them, yeah, they learn by example Blame the folks who sold the future for the highest bid That's right, Thatcher fucked the kids
I think most people would agree that Thatcher was at fault for a certain things, but to blame the behaviour of kids today on her when we've had 20 years of alternative governments and PM's since is just bullshit. The main reason for kids poor behaviour is usually shit parenting. Thats not to say that some kids have an extremely tough upbringing with very little in the way of opportunities. There are also a huge number that do but due to bad parenting/direction/lack of own ambition waste the opportunities they have. This probably has much more to do with celebrity culture and people believing that they are entitled to a certain standard of living rather than working hard and earning it, than Thatcher.
Last edited:
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Are you for real?
Cameron is about as conservative as your chum Karl Marx.
He is a classic liberal. Many of thatchers policy were very left wing as well in particular the continued disastrous education policy established by Comrade (grammar educated Williams) and a ridiculous pro Europe stance.
I am amused however that your bilge and ignorance is perfectly tolerated here yet if you uttered such in a regime which you crave for you'll be finding real hardship in some God forsaken gulag.
WillieStanley
New Member
It's actually saying that the dismantling of society is to do with it, which is pretty much what you're saying. The root of that is Maggie. A generation don't just become "shit parents", lose direction or ambition - that's got to come from somewhere and it's usually from the culture instilled by those leading the country. People don't just become reliant on drugs or feel that crime is a viable option to make a living than legally earning a living. Nor do they believe that Welfare is a viable alternative to work without that message coming from somewhere. It all started with her and yes, New Labour carried that on and allowed it to grow.
I see it as no coincidence that those who feel welfare is the most viable means of income rarely have experience of work and that those who have maintained even the lowest of incomes don't suddenly say "Forget this, I'm signing on - working is for mugs"
Increasingly, the poor and socially excluded members of our society are told they are lazy, worthless and a stain on the Great British flag. Then the younger of those look to their parents, who also believe that about themselves and think "I must be the same". They are told this by those who are supposedly there to protect them - the media, DWP, the Police, politicians, social services - even support services who are there to provide social support. Everyone has told you you're dirt for as long as you can remember - you have no money, no social network, no hope, every opportunity that's come your way has thrown up a massive barrier in your way - how are you going to feel.
Recovery from that can only happen through positive relationships which, when you are raised in the most deprived areas, are few and far between and thanks to Maggie, those who could provide a positive influence won't because the British culture is to look down on the marginalised, label them as chavs or whores or immigrants or scroungers.
Haven't got a job? Get one
Haven't got a home? Get one
Got mental health issues? Get rid of them
Got a drug or alcohol addiction? Get rid of it
Disabled? Get better
That is the message we are subject to every single day of our lives and unfortunately life isn't that simple. The leaders of our country in the 80's 90's and now seem to believe we live in this utopia where people generally get what they deserve and call those who say otherwise the "Looney Left".
Well I can tell you this now. People get what they don't deserve all the time. Every second of every day. Because of this, those of us that have been fortunate enough to benefit from meaningful activity, positive relationships, decent life skills and had access to fair education have a responsibility to help those that haven't. Infact responsibility doesn't give it enough importance. We have a moral obligation.
Thatcher burried that moral obligation and since then, the rich have continued to add more dirt to the hole it's burried in.
I see it as no coincidence that those who feel welfare is the most viable means of income rarely have experience of work and that those who have maintained even the lowest of incomes don't suddenly say "Forget this, I'm signing on - working is for mugs"
Increasingly, the poor and socially excluded members of our society are told they are lazy, worthless and a stain on the Great British flag. Then the younger of those look to their parents, who also believe that about themselves and think "I must be the same". They are told this by those who are supposedly there to protect them - the media, DWP, the Police, politicians, social services - even support services who are there to provide social support. Everyone has told you you're dirt for as long as you can remember - you have no money, no social network, no hope, every opportunity that's come your way has thrown up a massive barrier in your way - how are you going to feel.
Recovery from that can only happen through positive relationships which, when you are raised in the most deprived areas, are few and far between and thanks to Maggie, those who could provide a positive influence won't because the British culture is to look down on the marginalised, label them as chavs or whores or immigrants or scroungers.
Haven't got a job? Get one
Haven't got a home? Get one
Got mental health issues? Get rid of them
Got a drug or alcohol addiction? Get rid of it
Disabled? Get better
That is the message we are subject to every single day of our lives and unfortunately life isn't that simple. The leaders of our country in the 80's 90's and now seem to believe we live in this utopia where people generally get what they deserve and call those who say otherwise the "Looney Left".
Well I can tell you this now. People get what they don't deserve all the time. Every second of every day. Because of this, those of us that have been fortunate enough to benefit from meaningful activity, positive relationships, decent life skills and had access to fair education have a responsibility to help those that haven't. Infact responsibility doesn't give it enough importance. We have a moral obligation.
Thatcher burried that moral obligation and since then, the rich have continued to add more dirt to the hole it's burried in.
Last edited: