Maggie Thatcher has died (2 Viewers)

[WillieStanley]

And while I'm here. We wonder why Celebrity and Reality TV is such a massive hit in this country. Could it not be that actually, for the majority of the country, workers and claimants alike, it's the only outlet for achievement that isn't based on social status.

It used to be that the radio airwaves were filled with the sound of the working class. Even middle class bands were called out. Who remembers the stick Kula Shaker got when it came out that they were rich kids. The reason we are living in the times we are without art providing a backlash is to make it as an artist you have to be able to afford to get famous. There are exceptions like the Enemy who, to be fair, I don't really know how genuinely working class they are, but they talk a good game, but on the whole, actors in film and TV generally come from Drama School, paid for by their rich parents, bands have tons of money thrown into them at unsigned level to even get noticed. (Did you know that to get tour support for a band, say, playing Academy size venues, your band could garuntee a slot for around £5000).

Who was the last journalist to get snapped up for writing a great fanzine?

Working Classes and lower - if you want to get famous you have no chance of getting there on merit so pray that C4 come to your estate to make a fly on the wall, or fill out that application for the Voice, X-Factor or Big Brother. Then and only then, you might get an offer to appear in I'm A Celebrity.

 

---

[Flying Fokker]

Im too young to know about Maggie but how can the same person be branded as "the best leader we have ever had" by some people, and "the person that ruined our country" by others?

I mean, most people have a different view on politicians but generally agree they are complete ass wipes. How did this lady get such a "marmite" sort of reputation, i havent heard anyone give a split view really, its either she was amazing or she was the devil :S

Not so, many people change political view based on what they have experienced. Having voted for both parties it seems that both are guilty of poor political leadership. The key issues seem to be immigration at the moment. In my view this issue is a cross-electorate issue regardless of creed, colour or faith. Some of the strongest advocates of immigration control are from ethnic groups that came in to the country in the 50s and 60s.

 

[CCFCSteve]

It's actually saying that the dismantling of society is to do with it, which is pretty much what you're saying. The root of that is Maggie. A generation don't just become "shit parents", lose direction or ambition - that's got to come from somewhere and it's usually from the culture instilled by those leading the country. People don't just become reliant on drugs or feel that crime is a viable option to make a living than legally earning a living. Nor do they believe that Welfare is a viable alternative to work without that message coming from somewhere. It all started with her and yes, New Labour carried that on and allowed it to grow.

I see it as no coincidence that those who feel welfare is the most viable means of income rarely have experience of work and that those who have maintained even the lowest of incomes don't suddenly say "Forget this, I'm signing on - working is for mugs"

Increasingly, the poor and socially excluded members of our society are told they are lazy, worthless and a stain on the Great British flag. Then the younger of those look to their parents, who also believe that about themselves and think "I must be the same". They are told this by those who are supposedly there to protect them - the media, DWP, the Police, politicians, social services - even support services who are there to provide social support. Everyone has told you you're dirt for as long as you can remember - you have no money, no social network, no hope, every opportunity that's come your way has thrown up a massive barrier in your way - how are you going to feel.

Recovery from that can only happen through positive relationships which, when you are raised in the most deprived areas, are few and far between and thanks to Maggie, those who could provide a positive influence won't because the British culture is to look down on the marginalised, label them as chavs or whores or immigrants or scroungers.

Haven't got a job? Get one
Haven't got a home? Get one
Got mental health issues? Get rid of them
Got a drug or alcohol addiction? Get rid of it
Disabled? Get better

That is the message we are subject to every single day of our lives and unfortunately life isn't that simple. The leaders of our country in the 80's 90's and now seem to believe we live in this utopia where people generally get what they deserve and call those who say otherwise the "Looney Left".

Well I can tell you this now. People get what they don't deserve all the time. Every second of every day. Because of this, those of us that have been fortunate enough to benefit from meaningful activity, positive relationships, decent life skills and had access to fair education have a responsibility to help those that haven't. Infact responsibility doesn't give it enough importance. We have a moral obligation.

Thatcher burried that moral obligation and since then, the rich have continued to add more dirt to the hole it's burried in.

You make some decent points, however, as I said before there is still a large number of people that choose not to take opportunities given to them. Whilst society has a responsibility (moral obligation) to help those in need, individuals also have a personal responsibility to make the best of opportunities that come their way. Tell people in africa, parts of south america and asia that even disadvantage sections of the UK dont have have opportunities. Whatever people think about immigration vast numbers come here for the opportunities available, many settle and make the most of them. These are people who have left their families, gambled their livelihoods (and sometimes lives) to come here, yet people born and bred here would rather complain about unequal society and not being given a chance. People who havent bought up their kids well cant blame it on Thatcher, they have a responsibility/moral obligation to do their best by their children.

I believe society has shown and continues to show a willingness to help those in need. Just look at the collections on big charity nights/events like comic relief, Children in Need etc, at a time when a lot of people are struggling themselves. What people arent willing to do any more is help those that choose not to help themselves.

I am not saying everyone by any stretch, but many of those that want to blame someone who is now dead and hasn't been in power for 20 years for their lives, might also want to consider what more they could also have done to help themselves.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Cameron is about as conservative as your chum Karl Marx. He is a classic liberal.

Cameron stands for nothing. He is a CEO. When asked why he wanted to be prime minister, he said "Because I think I'd be good at it." Says it all. This perception of Eton entitlement, of a Bullingdon boy going on a great big lark ... is one of the key reasons why idealistic rightwingers such as Peter Oborne despise him.

 

[Macca]

I blame her for the near collapse of the country in the 70's as well. She might not have been in power but it is still clearly her fault.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

I blame her for the near collapse of the country in the 70's as well. She might not have been in power but it is still clearly her fault.

Is that ever a weak and passive argument! Lurking behind sarcasm, avoiding any substance, and ridiculous use of the straw man. If anybody in the thread insisted on a leader's profound, nation-changing pre-power influence, do point them out.

 

[Tad]

This is just ridiculous. 10 million pounds wasted on something only 25% of people wanted.

She wasn't anything of prestige. Her legacy was very split...

 

[Colonel Mustard]

This is just ridiculous. 10 million pounds wasted on something only 25% of people wanted.

She wasn't anything of prestige. Her legacy was very split...

Indeed. The sensible Tories, such as Peter Oborne (a Thatcherite if ever there was one), recognise how incorrect all this is. If there was ever any doubt that a desperate Conservative party is using this as a propaganda tool, then that ought to have been removed with Cameron's declaration this morning that "We're all Thatcherites now".

It is an ugly, partisan business that polarises rather than unites the country.

 

[CovkidSkyBlue]

Cov Kid's 80s angst

As it's pretty apt at the moment, see link below for Cov Kid's latest tongue in cheek lament for the 80s and a more politicised era! You'll also find some new Sky Blues related clips on the Cov Kid channel

www.youtube.com/watch?v=_L5_YfrYo4I

 

[Covstu]

is she dead, i never noticed.....:thinking about::thinking about::facepalm:

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

A true leader of people unites not divides a great nation. Mandela was much more of a leader than margaret thatcher. It's taken me a long time to write her name since she died but I can see now that by choosing to treat her with the dignity she chose to withhold from whole swathes of our country when in power is the way to greater unity

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Well, it was standard punishment for heresy, but, Mary I faced backlash from excessively burning Protestants. You also measure the brutality of monarchs in that era and Phillip II was really, really bad.

For Henry, I was more referring to the dissolution of the monasteries - nasty business there.

If God actually existed I might agree.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

If God actually existed I might agree.

I too am I non believer, but then religion was a big thing, and not much evidence to disprove it, as well as repressive monarchs who forced religion on people.

 

[Tad]

I too am I non believer, but then religion was a big thing, and not much evidence to disprove it, as well as repressive monarchs who forced religion on people.

I'm a non believer too. Has anyone else noticed how Jesus somehow managed to find guys called Mark, John, Peter and Matthew in the Middle East?


They usually have names closer to number plates over there after all...

 

[elephanttears]

Not much evidence to prove god exists either, Monarchs have always tried to force religion as to a certain extent it gives people morals and belief but i dont really think religion is relevant in this day and age. I see people who think there is a god as morons but thats my personal opinion. If i could see god existed i would believe it but until i dont it would be foolish and a waste of time cause going to church every week must be pretty boring.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Not much evidence to prove god exists either, Monarchs have always tried to force religion as to a certain extent it gives people morals and belief but i dont really think religion is relevant in this day and age. I see people who think there is a god as morons but thats my personal opinion. If i could see god existed i would believe it but until i dont it would be foolish and a waste of time cause going to church every week must be pretty boring.

I am a moron! Least I know!

 

[play_in_skyblue_stripes]

Can we close this thread down now and forget about Thatcher and move on?

There is nothing that can be done now.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I'm a non believer too. Has anyone else noticed how Jesus somehow managed to find guys called Mark, John, Peter and Matthew in the Middle East?


They usually have names closer to number plates over there after all...

Weirdly, I haven't, but very good point!

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I am a moron! Least I know!

Faith in God is what keeps some people going and makes life worth living so I'd never knock it.

It's when people complain about the Church being 'forced' into accepting gay marriage when the Church has persecuted people since its foundation that I start to have a problem.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Faith in God is what keeps some people going and makes life worth living so I'd never knock it.

It's when people complain about the Church being 'forced' into accepting gay marriage when the Church has persecuted people since its foundation that I start to have a problem.

So do I buddy, so do many!!

 

[Otis]

No-one said it better than John Lennon.

'God is a concept by which we measure our pain.'

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

The great theologian john Lennon Otis?? Pet hate? People who over reach?

 

[Otis]

No, not a theologian at all, but a great thinker at times and bang on the money too.


When he was 5 his mum told him that happiness was the key to life. He went to school the teachers asked him what he wanted to be when he grew up and he wrote down the word 'Happy.' The teachers replied that the young Lennon didn't understand the question and Lennon retorted, 'No, you don't understand life.'

 

[Otis]

It's actually saying that the dismantling of society is to do with it, which is pretty much what you're saying. The root of that is Maggie. A generation don't just become "shit parents", lose direction or ambition - that's got to come from somewhere and it's usually from the culture instilled by those leading the country. People don't just become reliant on drugs or feel that crime is a viable option to make a living than legally earning a living. Nor do they believe that Welfare is a viable alternative to work without that message coming from somewhere. It all started with her and yes, New Labour carried that on and allowed it to grow.

I see it as no coincidence that those who feel welfare is the most viable means of income rarely have experience of work and that those who have maintained even the lowest of incomes don't suddenly say "Forget this, I'm signing on - working is for mugs"

Increasingly, the poor and socially excluded members of our society are told they are lazy, worthless and a stain on the Great British flag. Then the younger of those look to their parents, who also believe that about themselves and think "I must be the same". They are told this by those who are supposedly there to protect them - the media, DWP, the Police, politicians, social services - even support services who are there to provide social support. Everyone has told you you're dirt for as long as you can remember - you have no money, no social network, no hope, every opportunity that's come your way has thrown up a massive barrier in your way - how are you going to feel.

Recovery from that can only happen through positive relationships which, when you are raised in the most deprived areas, are few and far between and thanks to Maggie, those who could provide a positive influence won't because the British culture is to look down on the marginalised, label them as chavs or whores or immigrants or scroungers.

Haven't got a job? Get one
Haven't got a home? Get one
Got mental health issues? Get rid of them
Got a drug or alcohol addiction? Get rid of it
Disabled? Get better

That is the message we are subject to every single day of our lives and unfortunately life isn't that simple. The leaders of our country in the 80's 90's and now seem to believe we live in this utopia where people generally get what they deserve and call those who say otherwise the "Looney Left".

Well I can tell you this now. People get what they don't deserve all the time. Every second of every day. Because of this, those of us that have been fortunate enough to benefit from meaningful activity, positive relationships, decent life skills and had access to fair education have a responsibility to help those that haven't. Infact responsibility doesn't give it enough importance. We have a moral obligation.

Thatcher burried that moral obligation and since then, the rich have continued to add more dirt to the hole it's burried in.

Well said.

The sort of things that onlookers at the parade were saying as some sort of beacon showed to me exactly what was wrong with Thatcherism.

One woman stood forwards and said something along the lines of ...

'She was a great leader. It was tough and it was a struggle to find work, but they said go out and find a job, get on your bike and find work and I made a great success in doing that. I left my family behind and worked really hard and made a success of my life. I have the greatest admiration for her.'


This is exactly what was wrong. Left her family behind? Families were forced to live separate lives and away from each other. Families split up, parents not seeing their children, people having to move away.

What is life all about if it is not about families? Surely that is our purpose isn't it? For me friends and families are everything. I have even turned down much higher paid jobs so I can spend more time with my 8 year old daughter.

Yes, I could go out and earn a lot more money, but there has to be a life balance. Back in the 80's it was all about the individual and making a success for yourself.

Society became fragmented. People became greedy. There was a sea-change of attitude and it was all so very clear to see.

 

[Houchens Head]

Did anyone feel sorry for George Osborne?

 

[torchomatic]

Did anyone feel sorry for George Osborne?

nope. Another Trustfund Tory who has gone straight from the Bullingdon Club to mainstream politics. He is a twat.

Sent from my GT-S5830 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

No, not a theologian at all, but a great thinker at times and bang on the money too.


When he was 5 his mum told him that happiness was the key to life. He went to school the teachers asked him what he wanted to be when he grew up and he wrote down the word 'Happy.' The teachers replied that the young Lennon didn't understand the question and Lennon retorted, 'No, you don't understand life.'

That's a story I am knicking!! All I am saying if you want to understand about god it's tricky to use quotes from someone who doesn't acknowledge the existence of one!!

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Well said.

The sort of things that onlookers at the parade were saying as some sort of beacon showed to me exactly what was wrong with Thatcherism.

One woman stood forwards and said something along the lines of ...

'She was a great leader. It was tough and it was a struggle to find work, but they said go out and find a job, get on your bike and find work and I made a great success in doing that. I left my family behind and worked really hard and made a success of my life. I have the greatest admiration for her.'


This is exactly what was wrong. Left her family behind? Families were forced to live separate lives and away from each other. Families split up, parents not seeing their children, people having to move away.

What is life all about if it is not about families? Surely that is our purpose isn't it? For me friends and families are everything. I have even turned down much higher paid jobs so I can spend more time with my 8 year old daughter.

Yes, I could go out and earn a lot more money, but there has to be a life balance. Back in the 80's it was all about the individual and making a success for yourself.

Society became fragmented. People became greedy. There was a sea-change of attitude and it was all so very clear to see.

Both of these statuses are excellent I agree wholeheartedly!!

Families are the key to fulfilled lives!!

 

[Otis]

Yes indeed.

Except for my missus of course!

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

What surprises me most about religion, in particular Islam and Christianity (only religions I know well), that religion polarises politics slightly to the right, look at the USA, their leading right politicians are religions boneheads (Palin, Bush, Romney, Ryan) yet the doctrine, if anything promotes socialist values, an Islam law encourages wealth distribution and the teachings of Jesus is look after one another and share, so I'm surprised that many members of religion aren't socialists, tbh.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

What surprises me most about religion, in particular Islam and Christianity (only religions I know well), that religion polarises politics slightly to the right, look at the USA, their leading right politicians are religions boneheads (Palin, Bush, Romney, Ryan) yet the doctrine, if anything promotes socialist values, an Islam law encourages wealth distribution and the teachings of Jesus is look after one another and share, so I'm surprised that many members of religion aren't socialists, tbh.

Christian social justice is where I am!! I think power corrupts and once in power doing all one can to keep it rather than loving enemies!!

 

[cloughie]

Not much evidence to prove god exists either, Monarchs have always tried to force religion as to a certain extent it gives people morals and belief but i dont really think religion is relevant in this day and age. I see people who think there is a god as morons but thats my personal opinion. If i could see god existed i would believe it but until i dont it would be foolish and a waste of time cause going to church every week must be pretty boring.

Long time since I have seen such an uninformed post

and thats bearing in mind some of the crap on here

 

[Darth Robins]

Long time since I have seen such an uninformed post

and thats bearing in mind some of the crap on here

Did I miss the discovery of an all powerful magic sky fairy or something?

 

[WillieStanley]

What surprises me most about religion, in particular Islam and Christianity (only religions I know well), that religion polarises politics slightly to the right, look at the USA, their leading right politicians are religions boneheads (Palin, Bush, Romney, Ryan) yet the doctrine, if anything promotes socialist values, an Islam law encourages wealth distribution and the teachings of Jesus is look after one another and share, so I'm surprised that many members of religion aren't socialists, tbh.

USA right wing politicians hide behind religion as a sort of divine right of infalability. They completely miss the point.

Whether you believe in the divinity of Jesus or not, there's so much evidence to prove his existence and his over all teaching was that of social inclusion and helping "The Least Of These"

Is it any wonder why Christianity has a bad name when the most famous Christian of the past decade is George W. Bush?

If you want a model of what true Christianity is, look no further than The Salvations Army. It's not perfect, but like all religious denominations, it's man made - so won't be. It is, however, directly focused on the teachings of Jesus. The Salvation Army in the UK states it exists simply to "Serve suffering humanity" in a non-judgemental and holistic manner. Wherever there is social injustice, The Salvation Army serves to protect the vulnerable without any want of return. I see it as amazing internationally that they were the first on the scenes of Haiti, Japan and more recently Boston providing welfare completely free of charge and without agenda. Locally it's invested £11m in its Homeless Accommodation which has an award winning programme of meaningful activity - including a sports programme, education, employability, basic skills, life skills, cooking and social enterprise.

This is the product of Christianity in Coventry:

Named ‘Harnall Lifehouse,’ the new facility is set to replace the 99-bed building in nearby Lincoln Street where The Salvation Army has served the homeless in the city since 1973.
Capable of accommodating up to 80 residents in purpose-built, modern surroundings, Harnall Lifehouse comprises state-of-the-art ICT facilities, an Employment Resource Centre and a community café that will be open to the public. Residents will also have access to a range of vocational and practical life skills courses to help them overcome the causes of homelessness.
Hundreds of attendees, ranging from local community workers, past and current residents and staff, were treated to guided tours of the aforementioned facilities plus the residential areas in which clients will live in ‘clusters’ of five, sharing a modern kitchen and a communal dining area – designed to give them advance preparation for independent living.
“We had a great turnout throughout the day and we are pleased to be have the building complete and to be so close to being fully operational,” said award-winning lifehouse manager Nathan Slinn. “A new centre has been in the pipeline for a long time and it is a great facility to serve the homeless in.”
Nathan, who was named Centre Manager of the Year at The Salvation Army’s Lifehouse Awards last year, courtesy of a string of accomplishments; such as increasing the rate of positive moving on of residents into employment, education, training and independent living by 400% within three years. In addition, the centre’s promotion of resident volunteering, such as the H.O.P.E. Project, has had a fantastic effect on improving residents’ self-worth.
Standing for Helping Other Projects Evolve, H.O.P.E. works to help local community organisations and lifehouse residents rebuild their lives. One recent activity was the design and building of a pathway and handrail around a local resource centre to give its blind and visually-impaired visitors easier access and greater independence.
Nathan anticipates the new location to be capable of encouraging even more success amongst clients: “It will be easier to pass on the concept of our centre being a place of change being based in a brand new, purpose-built building, which will better reflect what we are about and what we believe the residents can achieve.”
Due to the incorrectly negative impressions of The Salvation Army’s residential centres, in March 2010, the church and charity took the decision to abandon the word ‘hostel’ in favour of ‘lifehouse’ to better reflect the fact that the centres all provide a range of academic, vocational, life skills (i.e. budgeting, healthy eating and smoking cessation) and resettlement courses to enable residents to build a new life, free of the problems that initially caused them to become homeless.
As with all of the 70+ residential centres in the UK, Harnall Lifehouse will continue in this vein in partnership with a range of housing, medical, vocational and educative agencies across the city.
Existing Lincoln Street residents are to be relocated by late January, with a view to admitting new clients by March.
Project worker Kirk Savage spoke about the new lifehouse on Shane O’Connor’s Breakfast Show on BBC Coventry and Warwickshire the morning following the showcase.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Tis a powerful expression of god still moving in the world through people that are following his lead