PKWH on CWR Shane O'Connor 23/10/2013 (1 Viewer)

[torchomatic]

Weird it's almost like the figures don't add up.

But then we contributed 33% of turnover for 2009,2010 and 2011, when you consider rent, F&B's and match day costs ~ £2.35m

2009 35.7%
2010 35.1%
2011 30.2%


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse and spelling or grammar errors

 

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[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

So, the city of Coventry has ended up with a £120M events hall with a massive green hole in the middle?

Yes they have. And you're going to tell me now that the football club that should be playing there 'can't'?

Or 'won't'?

If the latter, is the embarrassment the city's, or the club's owners?

 

[torchomatic]

I'd rather not. I would like you to explain it to me.

Read OSB's response as well... thats two accountants saying the same!

 

[oldskyblue58]

I know this might come as a shock to Godiva but i agree ............... the whole process has served to sharpen up the ACL act. They are now driving the business, making it sharper and more efficient. The focus is no longer on football

 

[lordsummerisle]

Weird it's almost like the figures don't add up.

Been involved in football too long, they've been giving 110%.

 

[skybluesam66]

its not always direct revenue - i havent even shopped at the arena shops this season
not been in the casino

PWKH and higgs are as bad as sepalla and sisu and lucas and the council

The ricoh arena has a patch of grass in the middle of it around 110 yards x 70 with white lines and posts
This probably is half of the area of the site and its meant for Coventry city to play football on it

the ricoh arena wouldnt have been there without CCC or ACL
But guess what - it also wouldnt have been there without ccfc

the sooner these people stop worrying about going back on something they have said earlier and do what is best for the Arena, the football club, businesses around the arena and the city of coventry - then we will be able to move forward

 

[torchomatic]

Only time will tell if the chest beating (from both sides) proves to be correct.

I know this might come as a shock to Godiva but i agree ............... the whole process has served to sharpen up the ACL act. They are now driving the business, making it sharper and more efficient. The focus is no longer on football

 

[mds]

Too right. The club can fuck off. We demand a Physic Sally event every two weeks.

Shes useless, I asked her if we could expect the club back in the next 12mths, she couldnt answer.

 

[thaiskyblue]

Weird it's almost like the figures don't add up.

Maybe they employed sisu's accountant .

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

But then we contributed 33% of turnover for 2009,2010 and 2011, when you consider rent, F&B's and match day costs ~ £2.35m

2009 35.7%
2010 35.1%
2011 30.2%

That's history. We are talking about the now. The way that ACL have, and continue to change their business model to make it less reliant on the club.

So; I'll ask the question again. What if it is sustainable without the cub now? Where does that leave SISU's gamble with our football cub?

 

[torchomatic]

Oh yes. te-he-he, etc.

Maybe they employed sisu's accountant .

 

[lifelongcityfan]

I'd rather not. I would like you to explain it to me.

sorry, but do not have the 5 years to spare... you clearly are not a good listener

 

[torchomatic]

Now come on, don't be shy.

sorry, but do not have the 5 years to spare... you clearly are not a good listener

 

[Godiva]

I know this might come as a shock to Godiva but i agree ............... the whole process has served to sharpen up the ACL act. They are now driving the business, making it sharper and more efficient. The focus is no longer on football

What is this? Is it the third time this year we agree on something?
I need to smarten up then.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I know this might come as a shock to Godiva but i agree ............... the whole process has served to sharpen up the ACL act. They are now driving the business, making it sharper and more efficient. The focus is no longer on football

That's a deeply unpleasant thought in itself isn't it, that the purpose of a football ground is no longer as a football ground.

 

[RPHunt]

It continues to amaze me that a number of people on here have such an unhealthy fixation with ACL.

It reminds me of losers who have been in a failed relationship. Instead of getting on and building a new life for themselves, they go around, boring the crap out of everyone, with tales of how hard done by they were and gloating about any set back they perceive for their ex-partner.

I suspect there are a few of them on this board.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

That's a deeply unpleasant thought in itself isn't it, that the purpose of a football ground is no longer as a football ground.

Agreed. Although a bit like a mobile 'phone' you rarely make a call from :thinking about:

 

[shmmeee]

That's a deeply unpleasant thought in itself isn't it, that the purpose of a football ground is no longer as a football ground.

It was never just a football ground, more than half of the revenue even when the club was there was from outside the city, let alone outside football.

What it should mean is that it's better placed to offer preferential terms to the football club at times where it finds itself down on it's luck.

ACL being strong helps everyone.

 

[dongonzalos]

So, the city of Coventry has ended up with a £120M events hall with a massive green hole in the middle?

Seems to be the case unless Joy changes her mind.

 

[SIR ERNIE]

That's history. We are talking about the now. The way that ACL have, and continue to change their business model to make it less reliant on the club.

So; I'll ask the question again. What if it is sustainable without the cub now? Where does that leave SISU's gamble with our football cub?

Wasn't it timmy who bluffed 'We've moved on'..but actually never did

Seems like ACL have.

 

[Skybluesquirrel]

Taking that into account it could suggest the club could retun at the price of pure matchday cost. Forget the rounded offers at £400k or £150k per year ... it could happen at the actual match day costs without worsening the ACL business case. In fact it would probably add extra income as the businesses at the Ricoh would gain extra revenue.
And the club could still get ACL's share of F/B on match days without weakening ACL profit.

Out of interest, why do you think that ACL would consider offering Otium a deal to play rent free and only cover match day costs whilst also allowing Otium a share of F/B?

Are ACL directors allowed to subsidise another, separate and unconnected business in this way?

It wouldn't add any extra income in your scenario, as you are also giving any additional F&B income away. You are also likely to have increased ACL's costs in other areas, so the directors would not be taking their responsibilities to act in the companies best interests seriously, which is I believe, against UK Company Law.

 

[Skybluesquirrel]

That's a deeply unpleasant thought in itself isn't it, that the purpose of a football ground is no longer as a football ground.

Football grounds are only used around 25 days a year. Brighton & Hove Albion have just discovered this 'problem' and are following ACL's lead by applying for planning permission for a hotel and additional conference halls at Falmer. Its almost as though ACL and the council knew what they were doing all along by building additional infrastructure on the site to generate income 365 days a year, rather than 25, and now others are following.

Its good business practice. Not unpleasant. Unless of course you are a Marxist.

 

[Danceswithhorses]

That's a deeply unpleasant thought in itself isn't it, that the purpose of a football ground is no longer as a football ground.

Agreed, but that is Joy's non-negotiable position, and we all must suffer the consequences.

 

[RoboCCFC90]

"Lucas is serious, genuine & sincere"
"Very few people don't want CCFC at the Ricoh"
"It's within Otium's Gift to come back"
"3 courses of action: rental deal (Sisu turned down, but ACL are up to talk), buy the whole thing (need to talk to CCC, not for me to say but thinks it's very difficult, and not best option, even though that's what Joy wants. Wouldn't give them income unless they buy ACL too). " - Didn't say third, got interrupted.
"I don't think it's wise to say publicly what the price is, for CCC's ACL share, Higgs have veto over any side's share sale and at the moment would refuse to talk to any Sisu company until debts to them are paid (didn't say what debt: Alan Higgs, perhaps? - see below regarding legal costs)"
Q: What does the future look like without club for Ricoh?
A: "total income for 2012/13 around £12m with football, 2013/14 projected £13,5m with no football"
Q: How confident are you, does that take into account things like weddings not happening cos it's not CCFC"
A: "This isn't just guess work, we monitor this and are confident. You have to understand Ricoh business is national, not local. Most business comes from outside Coventry, around Europe. Around 55% of business is that. That expands with or without club. Of course ACL would love to have club, and are open to discussion, but the place isn't empty and doing nothing. Some events are totally secret (e.g. car manufacturer), no-one sees them."

"Joy said 'Trust me, I will not let you down' promised to pay £28k (Higgs legal fees accrued during neogotiations) if deal for Higgs share didn't go through, that money is still owed. Any deal needs to see money paid back that is owed"

"Hopeful academy back shortly, still negotiating"

"When you have a job to do you do the job, not about personality. If approach is made, ACL are more than up for it."

Sorry, typing as I listened.

The highlighted part interests me and put that together with the Ann Lucas statement where Ann Lucas didn't rule a sale of the Arena to SISU out, PWKH's comment justify that a sale is possible given the right terms. Like PWKH said it will be difficult, but he was never going to come out on CWR and say the sale of the Ricoh would be easy.

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

The thing is when either side say they are willing to talk it means very little as the conversation goes

Sepalla : we want to own the Ricoh
ACL/CCC : no

End of talks

There's no point in talks or offering to talk to the other side unless one side have indicated they are willing to shift their position

 

[RoboCCFC90]

The thing is when either side say they are willing to talk it means very little as the conversation goes

Sepalla : we want to own the Ricoh
ACL/CCC : no

End of talks

There's no point in talks or offering to talk to the other side unless one side have indicated they are willing to shift their position

But that's just it though CCFC whether have you heard or read in the last 24 hours from PWKH or Ann Lucas that a sale of the Ricoh isn't possible, the next step should be an independent evaluator comes in and evaluates the price of the business for the Ricoh Arena and SISU offer that value, ACL (CCC) can't then claim that they haven't got a fair price for the taxpayers of Coventry.

 

[Nick]

But that's just it though CCFC whether have you heard or read in the last 24 hours from PWKH or Ann Lucas that a sale of the Ricoh isn't possible, the next step should be an independent evaluator comes in and evaluates the price of the business for the Ricoh Arena and SISU offer that value, ACL (CCC) can't then claim that they haven't got a fair price for the taxpayers of Coventry.

Exactly, I think a fair price is market value and if that is more than what the council paid then so be it. IF the Ricoh was to be 100% owned by the club and not SISU then I wouldn't be too fussed about them getting it mega cheap though.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Out of interest, why do you think that ACL would consider offering Otium a deal to play rent free and only cover match day costs whilst also allowing Otium a share of F/B?

Are ACL directors allowed to subsidise another, separate and unconnected business in this way?

It wouldn't add any extra income in your scenario, as you are also giving any additional F&B income away. You are also likely to have increased ACL's costs in other areas, so the directors would not be taking their responsibilities to act in the companies best interests seriously, which is I believe, against UK Company Law.

ACL could do this in my view; yes. Right now, following recent events, they don't have a contract with the club's owners. As such, any new deal - provided it didn't mean they lost money - could easily be entertained. It helps continue to raise the profile of the Arena, and increase footfall to the location which drives other business opportunities. These sorts of 'at cost' or 'marginal cost' deals in a wider context are common and don't contravene company law.

This though, has to be separated from the idea of selling the business, at a less than market rate to a third party. As that clearly would be against the best interests of the limited company running the Arena.

So, cheap leasehold. No problem. Doesn't help Joy's conundrum though

 

[Skybluesquirrel]

But that's just it though CCFC whether have you heard or read in the last 24 hours from PWKH or Ann Lucas that a sale of the Ricoh isn't possible, the next step should be an independent evaluator comes in and evaluates the price of the business for the Ricoh Arena and SISU offer that value, ACL (CCC) can't then claim that they haven't got a fair price for the taxpayers of Coventry.

'Independent evaluator'. Where do we find one of those?

Who picks him/her. Who pays for their time and expertise? Imagine the answer to these two questions will be key in determining what 'value' is put on the Ricoh. Is it just the stadium, the whole site, the freehold and/or ACL that needs to be valued?

 

[RoboCCFC90]

Exactly, I think a fair price is market value and if that is more than what the council paid then so be it. IF the Ricoh was to be 100% owned by the club and not SISU then I wouldn't be too fussed about them getting it mega cheap though.

But the question will be whether SISU will pay a fair price for the Arena, if they're serious at building a new ground then doing what they can to also secure the Ricoh should be high on priorities.

 

[RoboCCFC90]

'Independent evaluator'. Where do we find one of those?

Who picks him/her. Who pays for their time and expertise? Imagine the answer to these two questions will be key in determining what 'value' is put on the Ricoh. Is it just the stadium, the whole site, the freehold and/or ACL that needs to be valued?

You can find buesiness evaluator's I am sure.

I would say the Council, forget SISU if the Council get the evaluator in he can give them a price to the business, that way CCC can then go to SISU and say x amount take it or build your own stadium.

Well if I am not mistaken Ann Lucas is trying to do her best for Coventry Taxpayers, and not short change them, I would be happy if she invested the money that the Taxpayers have pumped into the Ricoh since it has opened which the council have proffited from in getting a evaluation.

 

[thaiskyblue]

you can find buesiness evaluator's i am sure.

I would say the council, forget sisu if the council get the evaluator in he can give them a price to the business, that way ccc can then go to sisu and say x amount take it or build your own stadium.

Well if i am not mistaken ann lucas is trying to do her best for coventry taxpayers, and not short change them, i would be happy if she invested the money that the taxpayers have pumped into the ricoh since it has opened which the council have proffited from in getting a evaluation.

robbo it still wouldn't match seppela's.

 

[Godiva]

But the question will be whether SISU will pay a fair price for the Arena, if they're serious at building a new ground then doing what they can to also secure the Ricoh should be high on priorities.

What is a fair price? Without knowing that how can sisu agree to pay a fair price or not?
How to calculate a fair price? Does it equal market value?
Then what is the market value? How to calculate a market value of an item that has only one potential buyer and one potential seller?

I suggest the price for the freehold should be the exact mony CCC has spent on the Ricoh. NotOnePennyMore.
Or less.

 

[blend]

It seems as if ACL have managed to turn there business around successfully.

Maybe they should change tack. You give us the club to offset the debts you owe us and then CCFC will be back at the Ricoh.

I would definitely trust them to plan a reasonable sale to a new prospective owner. They could even put in a figure to bail out SISUs investors.

ACL pay £7m to wipe off the debts of the club and gain ownership with a view to a future sale. They will even clear SISUs debts owed to them. Perfect scenario.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Fair play to ACL if they've increased turnover by nearly 100% (or more if you consider that the club is now gone). Some of it is based on enquiries but I can't imagine ACL would forecast on the basis of something that wasn't likely to come to fruition.

I'm interested to see what the increased turnover is made up of.