Southport Stabbing (9 Viewers)

[Harry Krishner]

Not how it works. It you want to claim a certain person or type of person committed a crime, then the burden of proof lies with you.

You say this person said such and such, it's up to you to provide the proof they did. "Can't be arsed" to "waste time digging around" is not valid. Either prove they said it or retract the assertion that they did. I see afterwards you were talking about the 'jist' of something he said. Again not good enough - that's you putting you own interpretation on what was actually said.

I beg to differ.

This is the off-topic forum of a football supporters' website - not University Challenge or defence of a PhD thesis. People pull some fairly questionable and very poorly informed (see israel/Palestine) assertions out of their arses and hold others to standards known only to themselves.

I posted a couple of fairly decent links earlier on - see these and draw your own conclusions, but I'm sure I summarised Trevor Phillips' findings in a fair and reasonable manner.

Appreciate the diversity of views on here anyway - it's quite unusual to see these days.

 

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[Grendel]

I beg to differ.

This is the off-topic forum of a football supporters' website - not University Challenge or defence of a PhD thesis. People pull some fairly questionable and very poorly informed (see israel/Palestine) assertions out of their arses and hold others to standards known only to themselves.

I posted a couple of fairly decent links earlier on - see these and draw your own conclusions, but I'm sure I summarised Trevor Phillips' findings in a fair and reasonable manner.

Appreciate the diversity of views on here anyway - it's quite unusual to see these days.

It’s ironic as Dreamer espouses many bizarre political theories would work with never a shred of evidence they ever have

 

[Grendel]

Appreciate the diversity of views on here anyway - it's quite unusual to see these days.

indeed and it’s really irritating the sixth form socialist club on here

 

[Nick]

Blimey. Comment was simply about death penalty compared to life in prison.

Yeah but you quoted me saying harsher sentences and increased stop and search?

I don't think it should be the death penalty for somebody caught carrying a knife.

 

[Nick]

OK. If we are playing that game... I support more carrying of knives and love stop and search.
In reality S&S has proved historically to be a great tool for prejudiced police officers, so instead I'd listen to the experts and advocate strong sentences, education, and maybe only searches where evidence of kids being in gangs or where under strong suspicions of committing a crime.

I think it does have to be used properly and with statistics and rates in mind.

If an area has knife crime rates that are massive within a particular community then of course the stop and search statistics would show that. People will get gut feelings which are right and sometimes wrong. (ie the Manchester Bombing Security guard). Obviously if police abuse their power, to be cunts then they should be gone instantly.

If somebody (regardless of their colour, race or religion) is walking down the road in a balaclava, big coat and manbag in 30 degree heat then why not search them to see what's going on?

There are now people being sent to prison for longer for posting shit on Facebook (and pleading guilty) than some people who carry AND USE a knife in public. Nothing says "tough on knife crime" more than that. (Thats not saying posting particular stuff on Facebook is OK, it's just in comparison to the pathetic sentences people get for knife crime).

 

[Como]

Now here is a surprise.

 

[Nick]

Investigating Crime - Inadequate.

Wow

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Look at it from the other view and it has stopped a lot of knife crime and stabbings especially in London. Why would you need to bring any prejudice into it? It clearly works or did work.

Stats say otherwise

 

[Nick]

Stats say otherwise

If it's done properly and proper sentences handed out to people carrying knives, it will cut it down.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

If it's done properly and proper sentences handed out to people carrying knives, it will cut it down.

Does stop and search work? - Full Fact

Discussion of stop and search focuses on its use as a crime deterrent. But this ignores its use as an investigatory power.

fullfact.org

I know we’re in the era of post truth world

 

[Nick]

Does stop and search work? - Full Fact

Discussion of stop and search focuses on its use as a crime deterrent. But this ignores its use as an investigatory power.

fullfact.org

I know we’re in the era of post truth world

40,000 knives in the past few years have been found during stop and search.

Give them all a mandatory 5 years sentence and watch the rates fall. Give them a slap on the wrist and it won't do much.

People are getting longer for posting stuff on Facebook than people walking around in public with knives.

Man jailed after brandishing knives outside nightclub

Mohammed Kashin waved two blades around after an argument with another man in Coventry

www.birminghammail.co.uk

12 months for affray and trying to stab people.

Hardly a deterrent.

 

[chiefdave]

40,000 knives in the past few years have been found during stop and search.

Give them all a mandatory 5 years sentence and watch the rates fall. Give them a slap on the wrist and it won't do much.

The prisons are full. Who are you letting out to create room for this 40K?

 

[David O'Day]

Not sure any of those are worthy of prison sentences

text book examples of both inciting hatred and inciting people to riot

 

[Nick]

The prisons are full. Who are you letting out to create room for this 40K?

Same people coming out to make room for those getting sent down for posting stuff online.

Can't really say too full for people carrying knives but make room for others?

That's if they actually wanted to cut down knife crime. The pathetic sentences say not.

 

[Grendel]

The prisons are full. Who are you letting out to create room for this 40K?

They seem less full now with rioters being sent to prison in record time and long sentences

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I beg to differ.

This is the off-topic forum of a football supporters' website - not University Challenge or defence of a PhD thesis. People pull some fairly questionable and very poorly informed (see israel/Palestine) assertions out of their arses and hold others to standards known only to themselves.

I posted a couple of fairly decent links earlier on - see these and draw your own conclusions, but I'm sure I summarised Trevor Phillips' findings in a fair and reasonable manner.

Appreciate the diversity of views on here anyway - it's quite unusual to see these days.

You said different nationality immigrants were predisposed to committing different crimes. It can’t be a surprise to get called out on the claim.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

text book examples of both inciting hatred and inciting people to riot

Really?
The Twitter one was much worse from the conservative councillors wife

 

[eastwoodsdustman]

Stats say otherwise

It gets knives off the streets. Maybe doesn't stop them re offending but any knife taken from a young lad is removing the risk even temporarily.

 

[Gynnsthetonic]

People are getting longer sentences for putting hurty words and emojis on the Internet than the knife attackers and murders themselves, never mind the paedos getting away with downloading filth.

 

[Nick]

Man received prison sentence following assault of police officers and hospital staff

Anthony Evans, 58 of no fixed address has been sentenced to 20 weeks behind bars and is required to pay £100 worth of compensation.

coventryobserver.co.uk

20 weeks.....

 

[chiefdave]

Same people coming out to make room for those getting sent down for posting stuff online.

But that's probably in single digits. The record high number of people in prison in the UK at any one time is 88K, not sure there's any practical way you could pretty much overnight decide to add to the prison population by 50%.

Completely agree that there's little deterrent at the moment but not sure how quickly you can turn that around. Building more prisons, and being able to staff them, is not a quick fix.

You could look at changing sentencing guidelines but I think that's mostly a one way thing. The sentences people aren't happy with tend to be ones they believe should be more severe. You see a lot of 'why is this a suspended sentence when this other thing isn't' type posts but not many people suggesting that those that have been jailed shouldn't have been.

Just look at how much complaining there was about people being released early to create capacity. And with the recent riots there were issues with there being no places available for those arrested. They had to fast track plans to increase capacity just to cope with arrests in the region of 500 people.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It gets knives off the streets. Maybe doesn't stop them re offending but any knife taken from a young lad is removing the risk even temporarily.

Stop and search when done in the US disproportionately targets black people. If you can find a way of not just racially profiling people here then go for it, but based on the huge issues with the Met currently I’m not convinced we’d avoid that problem.

 

[Nick]

Stop and search when done in the US disproportionately targets black people. If you can find a way of not just racially profiling people here then go for it, but based on the huge issues with the Met currently I’m not convinced we’d avoid that problem.

Think it depends on the location and crime statistics.

If it's in London it's obviously going to be different to rural Yorkshire.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Think it depends on the location and crime statistics.

If it's in London it's obviously going to be different to rural Yorkshire.

This is where the subconscious biases we were discussing become very relevant. If police officers come to associate knife crime with different races, they will end up focusing their searches more on members of those communities.

 

[Como]

This is where the subconscious biases we were discussing become very relevant. If police officers come to associate knife crime with different races, they will end up focusing their searches more on members of those communities.

Which is why nothing will change.

I am not saying she is wrong, quite the contrary but nothing will change, well it will get worse.

 

[tisza]

Now here is a surprise.

probably a more shocking set of stats.

Crimes solved England and Wales 2023 | Statista

For the year ending March 2023, 5.7 percent of crime offences resulted in a charge or summons in England and Wales.

www.statista.com

 

[Nick]

This is where the subconscious biases we were discussing become very relevant. If police officers come to associate knife crime with different races, they will end up focusing their searches more on members of those communities.

That's why I'm on about statistics too.

For example if somewhere in Yorkshire the knife crime / murder is mainly carried out by white teens but they are just stopping black people then something is wrong.

In London, if the majority of knife crime / murders is carried out by black people then surely you would see that reflected in the certain areas?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Which is why nothing will change.

I am not saying she is wrong, quite the contrary but nothing will change, well it will get worse.

If you can get universal stop and search coverage across these communities then go for it. I’m just saying that if the policy ends up just targeting black people you’ll have stoked another problem in the process.

I also have zero faith in the Met’s ability to do the job.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

That's why I'm on about statistics too.

For example if somewhere in Yorkshire the knife crime / murder is mainly carried out by white teens but they are just stopping black people then something is wrong.

In London, if the majority of knife crime / murders is carried out by black people then surely you would see that reflected in the certain areas?

The issue in the US is that the ‘Yorkshire’ scenario you describe happens often. The point is if you want to focus on a certain part of the country that’s fine, just ensure that the searching is done of everybody instead of certain demographics.

Maybe at the same time this is going on we could offer a blade amnesty.

 

[Nick]

The issue in the US is that the ‘Yorkshire’ scenario you describe happens often. The point is if you want to focus on a certain part of the country that’s fine, just ensure that the searching is done of everybody instead of certain demographics.

Maybe at the same time this is going on we could offer a blade amnesty.

I'm talking about statistics of the different areas and that the percentages are bound to be different.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I'm talking about statistics of the different areas and that the percentages are bound to be different.

And I’m talking about the problem if you have underlying racial biases in the police forces assigned to the job. I’m not convinced they aren’t still there.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

text book examples of both inciting hatred and inciting people to riot

Really?
The Twitter one was much worse from the conservative councillors

It gets knives off the streets. Maybe doesn't stop them re offending but any knife taken from a young lad is removing the risk even temporarily.

fair comment

 

[Grendel]

If you can get universal stop and search coverage across these communities then go for it. I’m just saying that if the policy ends up just targeting black people you’ll have stoked another problem in the process.

I also have zero faith in the Met’s ability to do the job.

In London its a majority black issue is it not?

Are a majority of youth knife offenders minority ethnic? - Full Fact

Across England and Wales in 2017, 38% of knife possession convictions among under 25s were convictions of non-white youths.

fullfact.org

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

In London its a majority black issue is it not?

Are a majority of youth knife offenders minority ethnic? - Full Fact

Across England and Wales in 2017, 38% of knife possession convictions among under 25s were convictions of non-white youths.

fullfact.org

Does this mean you wouldn’t also search white people?

 

[Nick]

Does this mean you wouldn’t also search white people?

Of course you would, that's what I mean about the statistics / different areas being reflected.