The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (3 Viewers)

[dutchman]

Love it check the Sun website for election update and headline story is about some TV programme called love Island. Wonder why there is political apathy then check the bigger selling newspapers.

That's because their readers are sick of hearing about europe and just wish the whole thing would go away.

Just under three years ago they thought it had after they voted to leave.

 

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[martcov]

They do or else they would have voted for remain parties instead of staying at home and not voting at all. (That's if you believe Britain is already in the process of leaving which I don't).

You don’t have to get out if you don’t want to change the status quo or are not that bothered. If you want to change things you have to get out and vote. Most people are not that bothered.

 

[martcov]

That's because their readers are sick of hearing about europe and just wish the whole thing would go away.

Just under three years ago they thought it had after they voted to leave.

The Mail has the same. Tits and bums. Their readers just like looking at tits and bums. Not a political message. Just a fact, which is why they do it.

PS don’t ask why I was looking at it.

 

[dutchman]

You don’t have to get out if you don’t want to change the status quo or are not that bothered. If you want to change things you have to get out and vote. Most people are not that bothered.

I agree!

But what is the 'status quo'? Is it that Britain is permanently in the EU or is it in the process of leaving?

It's possible that most people think Britain is already leaving, are perfectly happy with that, so have no reason protest against it.

It's equally possible they believe Britain has no intention of leaving, are happy with that, so again have no reason to register a protest vote.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Oh yes let’s see a conservative candidate go to its members with a policy of revoking article 50

You made the claim there is no mechanism for a second referendum/renegotiated deal which is false.

You know this hence you didn’t say anything about an extension.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Why not? They were perfectly happy with their candidates voting for May's sell-out deal.

Remember when Rees-Mogg came out several times saying it was better to remain in the EU than May’s deal? Only to then go ahead and vote for it.

 

[Astute]

There is no contradiction too great for a hardline Brexiter

Are the contradictions from only one side or are they only noticed on one side?

The contradictions on both sides started before the referendum and they have continued until now. And they won't stop even when this debacle is all over.

 

[Kingokings204]

This is nonsense and a blatant distortion of the truth.

All of Labour’s European candidates were pro-Remain, something that was pointed out. So to lump on Labour’s 15% as to the ‘leave’ column is just wrong. For starts, I voted Labour last week and I’m a Remainer. The majority of Labour members are overwhelmingly pro-Remain and we don’t know how much of its traditional base voted Brexit Party last week.

The only way we’ll actually find out what the public truly thinks of Brexit is with any another referendum, not some nonsense guess work.

Brexit Party and UKIP got roughly the same amount of votes as Lib Dem, Greens and Change UK. PC and SNP not included because despite being overtly pro-Remain, have a significant % of Leave voters.

I was making the point that labours position is still to leave the EU. That’s just a fact. Lib dems are the stop brexit charade. So by voting for Labour you are still voting to leave the EU. Unless they said they want to revoke article 50 like the lib dems and I will apologize.

Take Labour out and it’s still 44% leave parties and 40% remain. But again I don’t always buy this as many remainers would of voted tories just as many leavers would of voted Labour in these elections. So to use Mart analysis of this was wrong not me. I agree with you actually that the only way to find out is to have a referendum with leave and remain on it.

 

[RegTheDonk]

So you're quite happily ignoring UKIP's performance, who themselves got absolutely mauled?

LOL. All their support went to a party pushing the same single message...deliver brexit.

Where is the support for Change who have built their house on 180° foundations to this?

The Lib and Green vote carries multiple policies as I've pointed out. There are obviously people who want to remain and went there, but the notion the country is vastly in favour of staying in the EU is frankly daft.

 

[Grendel]

You made the claim there is no mechanism for a second referendum/renegotiated deal which is false.

You know this hence you didn’t say anything about an extension.

There isn’t in practice as the Eu have stated no more extensions without conditions including a referendum and that can’t get through parliament

 

[SkyblueBazza]

There isn’t in practice as the Eu have stated no more extensions without conditions including a referendum and that can’t get through parliament

Don't hold your breath on that one G. The establishment has been fully mobilised to find a 'reasonable' means of ignoring the referendum result.
I think it will happen too...had we simply voted to stay in the first place we would be in a stronger future position imo. If we overturn (because however they dress it up - that is what it amounts to) it - we will be relatively cannon-fodder

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[Ian1779]

Love it check the Sun website for election update and headline story is about some TV programme called love Island. Wonder why there is political apathy then check the bigger selling newspapers.

Political apathy means the establishment stays in power... it’s the best strategy for an imploding Tory party at the moment.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Why not? They were perfectly happy with their candidates voting for May's sell-out deal.

Call her a traitor, you're already so close

 

[fernandopartridge]

LOL. All their support went to a party pushing the same single message...deliver brexit.

Where is the support for Change who have built their house on 180° foundations to this?

The Lib and Green vote carries multiple policies as I've pointed out. There are obviously people who want to remain and went there, but the notion the country is vastly in favour of staying in the EU is frankly daft.

Agreed, it's about 50:50 as it ever was.

 

[Ian1779]

Agreed, it's about 50:50 as it ever was.

And this is the epitome of the problem. We are as divided as before, except it’s now more entrenched and the possibility of compromise reduces every day.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

LOL. All their support went to a party pushing the same single message...deliver brexit.

Where is the support for Change who have built their house on 180° foundations to this?

The Lib and Green vote carries multiple policies as I've pointed out. There are obviously people who want to remain and went there, but the notion the country is vastly in favour of staying in the EU is frankly daft.

Exactly my point. Take out the people just moving to Brexit from UKIP and and you get 7.4% more votes than last time. Twice as much as Change, but with the Farage cult and his savvy media coverage they got far more exposure than Change, who got most of their coverage as the Independent Group before quietly changing their name and I reckon a lot of people would've looked at the ballot without the fainest clue who they were.

Even the name 'Change' doesn't indicate that their running a Stop Brexit message. Change of what? What about that name would tell you "they're running on a pro-remain basis" Brexit, even if you'd never heard of them, gives you a clear indication of what they want.

Ask most people who they think of as the prominent Remain party in that election and the vast majority will say Lib Dem. Their share of the vote increased by over 13%, nearly double what New UKIP achieved. I reckon most would even think of Green ahead of Change.

I'm not saying the country is vastly in favour of staying in the EU - I reckon it's still deeply divided roughly along the middle. I'm just providing the devil's advocate for those that see the performance of Brexit as a clear sign that the country fervently wants to leave. Fact is 2/3 of the people didn't vote, which suggests most don't give a fuck whether we're in or out.

 

[Kingokings204]

And this is the epitome of the problem. We are as divided as before, except it’s now more entrenched and the possibility of compromise reduces every day.

Agreed but the main reason it’s divided as ever is because we haven’t left and the vote has not been honoured.

If we had of just reset after the referendum and left like we were told on a 9 million leaflet then the debate would of moved on and people would of moved on. We had a referendum as we had a result.

It’s the lack of leadership that’s caused this. Being so divided comes from westminster.

 

[djr8369]

Agreed but the main reason it’s divided as ever is because we haven’t left and the vote has not been honoured.

If we had of just reset after the referendum and left like we were told on a 9 million leaflet then the debate would of moved on and people would of moved on. We had a referendum as we had a result.

It’s the lack of leadership that’s caused this. Being so divided comes from westminster.

In fairness though the government have tried their best to honour the result but the Brexiters have moved the goal posts to no deal.

If they don’t want what they campaigned for then that’s their issue. We would have left if ERG didn’t vote down Mays deal.


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[SkyBlueDom26]

Surely we can all agree on how much of a twat Tony blair is, why can't he just piss off

Tony Blair scoffs at chance of Brexit happening as he plots new ‘proper’ Remain campaign

 

[djr8369]

Surely we can all agree on how much of a twat Tony blair is, why can't he just piss off

He didn’t help weighing in as he’s too tainted.


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[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

In fairness though the government have tried their best to honour the result but the Brexiters have moved the goal posts to no deal.

If they don’t want what they campaigned for then that’s their issue. We would have left if ERG didn’t vote down Mays deal.


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But people like the ERG will say they haven't moved the goalposts. The referendum stated remain or leave, and leave meant no deal. Whether we later renegotiated a trade deal as a non-EU country is a different matter entirely. There was nothing in the referendum that stated we had to get a trade deal before leaving.

That is why we're in this mess - the option wasn't specific enough. It needed to be absolutely clear what Leave meant and that should've been set at no deal. No customs union, no freedom of movement, hard border etc.

It's why I still get annoyed at the phrase "this isn't the Brexit the people voted for". Everyone who voted leave did so with a different idea of what leave meant and phrases like "British values" are empty because again people have completely different ideas of what British values are.

However, I do love the irony that the main reason we're still in the EU is because those who most ardently want to leave it won't agree to something.

 

[djr8369]

But people like the ERG will say they haven't moved the goalposts. The referendum stated remain or leave, and leave meant no deal. Whether we later renegotiated a trade deal as a non-EU country is a different matter entirely. There was nothing in the referendum that stated we had to get a trade deal before leaving.

That is why we're in this mess - the option wasn't specific enough. It needed to be absolutely clear what Leave meant and that should've been set at no deal. No customs union, no freedom of movement, hard border etc.

It's why I still get annoyed at the phrase "this isn't the Brexit the people voted for". Everyone who voted leave did so with a different idea of what leave meant and phrases like "British values" are empty because again people have completely different ideas of what British values are.

However, I do love the irony that the main reason we're still in the EU is because those who most ardently want to leave it won't agree to something.

All correct, there was no detail on the ballot paper. However, you have to read into what they campaigned for to get the detail which was all great deals, Norway options, customs unions and all sorts. Now all those options have been cast aside as not pure Brexit. It’s absurd.

Oddly, JRM had it right when he suggest two referendums. One to instigate negotiations and one to confirm what was negotiated.


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[martcov]

I was making the point that labours position is still to leave the EU. That’s just a fact. Lib dems are the stop brexit charade. So by voting for Labour you are still voting to leave the EU. Unless they said they want to revoke article 50 like the lib dems and I will apologize.

Take Labour out and it’s still 44% leave parties and 40% remain. But again I don’t always buy this as many remainers would of voted tories just as many leavers would of voted Labour in these elections. So to use Mart analysis of this was wrong not me. I agree with you actually that the only way to find out is to have a referendum with leave and remain on it.

Labour claim they have tried their best to get a negotiated deal according to their conference terms. It is no longer possible because of the Tory upcoming change of leadership and lack of time. They will not accept no deal and will call for a vote. GE first, but the Tories won’t allow that, so People’s Vote is the only option left. Barry Gardiner just explained the position. Hardly leave.

 

[Grendel]

Surely we can all agree on how much of a twat Tony blair is, why can't he just piss off

Tony Blair scoffs at chance of Brexit happening as he plots new ‘proper’ Remain campaign

I want Blair to lead the campaign with commandant in chief Campbell and tweedle dumb and tweedle dumber (aka Cleggy and Cameron) his sidekicks.

That should do the trick

 

[Grendel]

Labour claim they have tried their best to get a negotiated deal according to their conference terms. It is no longer possible because of the Tory upcoming change of leadership and lack of time. They will not accept no deal and will call for a vote. GE first, but the Tories won’t allow that, so People’s Vote is the only option left. Barry Gardiner just explained the position. Hardly leave.

That’s the end of them - they have zero chance now if power

 

[martcov]

Don't hold your breath on that one G. The establishment has been fully mobilised to find a 'reasonable' means of ignoring the referendum result.
I think it will happen too...had we simply voted to stay in the first place we would be in a stronger future position imo. If we overturn (because however they dress it up - that is what it amounts to) it - we will be relatively cannon-fodder

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The ERG has blocked the only leave deal on the table, and all other leavers are now going for a no deal which was not going to happen according to leavers before the referendum. No deal is unacceptable to the majority in parliament and leaves a people’s vote to find out how the public sees no deal, May‘s deal or remain as the end of the Brexit story. You can start a conspiracy theory or join one if you wish, the doesn’t alter reality.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I'm not arguing that the Leave campaign was massively ambiguous and economical with the truth about what could and would be achievable. But it should've been set out as a clear two step process:
1. We leave the EU entirely and trade under WTO
2. After leaving we begin the process of negotiating new trade deals as a non-EU country.

That way at least this wrangling over pro and anti Brexit dividing the country for three years wouldn't have happened. We'd be out and that would be that.

Of all the people I know that voted leave there's no consensus between them of what they wanted. Some wanted to restrict freedom of movement (although ironically when pointed out this could make it their holidays abroad more awkward and expensive they weren't happy about it), others didn't because they work abroad. Some wanted no customs union, others did because it would affect their business. Some wanted to regain control of our laws despite not seeming to know exactly which ones they didn't want or which were EU driven and which weren't. I'm not sure most of the time.

That is why I favour a second referendum - purely to make the option completely and totally unambiguous.

 

[Grendel]

The ERG has blocked the only leave deal on the table, and all other leavers are now going for a no deal which was not going to happen according to leavers before the referendum. No deal is unacceptable to the majority in parliament and leaves a people’s vote to find out how the public sees no deal, May‘s deal or remain as the end of the Brexit story. You can start a conspiracy theory or join one if you wish, the doesn’t alter reality.

Explain to me how the second referendum gets through parliament

 

[martcov]

That’s the end of them - they have zero chance now if power

Who do you think does stand a chance of power? The Tories who caused this mess by calling the referendum? The leader and his no manifesto party, which has few members ( the 25£ a head gang are not members and have no rights), is a limited company with the leader himself as sole director and CEO who will issue a list of policies after receiving your votes? Or a libdem/ labour pact to restart the governance of the UK post Brexit fiasco?

 

[Grendel]

The ERG has blocked the only leave deal on the table, and all other leavers are now going for a no deal which was not going to happen according to leavers before the referendum. No deal is unacceptable to the majority in parliament and leaves a people’s vote to find out how the public sees no deal, May‘s deal or remain as the end of the Brexit story. You can start a conspiracy theory or join one if you wish, the doesn’t alter reality.

The Labour Party blocked the deal for political reasons and now are committing self destruction.

 

[Grendel]

Who do you think does stand a chance of power? The Tories who caused this mess by calling the referendum? The leader and his no manifesto party, which has few members ( the 25£ a head gang are not members and have no rights), is a limited company with the leader himself as sole director and CEO who will issue a list of policies after receiving your votes? Or a libdem/ labour pact to restart the governance of the UK post Brexit fiasco?

You really are clueless - even the lefts favourite friend Owen Jones admires it’s the end of the road for labour - why would he say that?

 

[Grendel]

Who do you think does stand a chance of power? The Tories who caused this mess by calling the referendum? The leader and his no manifesto party, which has few members ( the 25£ a head gang are not members and have no rights), is a limited company with the leader himself as sole director and CEO who will issue a list of policies after receiving your votes? Or a libdem/ labour pact to restart the governance of the UK post Brexit fiasco?

Er the tories are in power and will remain so if they wish

 

[martcov]

Explain to me how the second referendum gets through parliament

Vote of confidence. Lab Lib SNP plus some older remainer Tories against the rest of the Tories and DUP. Bye bye Tories. GE and/or PV. Parliament is at an impasse, put the cards on the table and let the people decide on the Brexit we now can see versus remain.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Explain to me how the second referendum gets through parliament

I guess we could do it like voting in a GE in FPTP. Usually the party that gets 30% of the vote from 30% of the population gets to form a government. So lets get all the option down at once - second referendum, May's deal and no deal - and then whichever gets the most MP's voting for it, that's what we do.

 

[martcov]

You really are clueless - even the lefts favourite friend Owen Jones admires it’s the end of the road for labour - why would he say that?

He is not my friend and he is not labour.