The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (25 Viewers)

[Grendel]

Utter bollocks? Please elaborate.


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Because you are implying there is an economic benefit to do so and smuggle contraband whereas 15 years ago jaguar products were being driven across the border with a massive saving of £10,000 per car and we were having to prop up the motor industry. So what actually is smuggling? And what are they smuggling?

 

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[skybluetony176]

Maybe some good news. Boris could be on his way out. Or planning to be dead in a ditch

Boris Johnson says he would 'rather be dead in a ditch' than delay Brexit | Daily Mail Online

Ha ha. That’s funny. Aww, it’s not easy being World King is it Boris.

 

[Sick Boy]

Of course you don't. Have proven you wrong yet again. Don't worry. Will leave you alone to your fantasies and false information. Had enough of it.

And you claim others don't a debate and then act like a spoilt, petulant child.

 

[Grendel]

He has become so rabid and consumed by the cult that bloodshed is a price worth paying for it.

So the economy argument is dead. Unify Ireland - we can’t again surrender to bombs and bullets

 

[djr8369]

Because you are implying there is an economic benefit to do so and smuggle contraband whereas 15 years ago jaguar products were being driven across the border with a massive saving of £10,000 per car and we were having to prop up the motor industry. So what actually is smuggling? And what are they smuggling?

An economic benefit? No, I saying it will come at huge cost to police it. What are they smuggling, fuel is a big one I believe but as I say being outside of the SM will create a black market and different goods will smuggled. You’re ignoring my main point though, it’s not just about the cost of smuggling but the fact not policing the border would mean we’d be breaking our commitments to WTO rules or any other future trading arrangement. You can’t just have an open land border with another market.


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[skybluetony176]

It clearly states that the Irish parliament if in operation could call a unification referendum - the bottom line is 340,000 in Northern Ireland voted leave - the split was 55 45 so 45% actually weren’t bothered about the GFA

The Irish government cannot trigger unification on its own. It needs agreement from the U.K. first and the U.K. can only agree it under a specific set of circumstances.

 

[Grendel]

An economic benefit? No, I saying it will come at huge cost to police it. What are they smuggling, fuel is a big one I believe but as I say being outside of the SM will create a black market and different goods will smuggled. You’re ignoring my main point though, it’s not just about the cost of smuggling but the fact not policing the border would mean we’d be breaking our commitments to WTO rules or any other future trading arrangement. You can’t just have an open land border with another market.


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So actually you have no firm idea on smuggling - fair enough - can’t see how fuel can actually get through Ireland but whatever

So would Eire be breaking the rules on WTO or just the uk?

 

[Grendel]

The Irish government cannot trigger unification on its own. It needs agreement from the U.K. first and the U.K. can only agree it under a specific set of circumstances.

The GFA allows an independence referendum under exactly these circumstances doesn’t it? Also a referendum every 7 years once the agreement was signed doesn’t it?

 

[fernandopartridge]

So the economy argument is dead. Unify Ireland - we can’t again surrender to bombs and bullets

You have surrendered, the Tories have gifted the IRA what they wanted

 

[Grendel]

You have surrendered, the Tories have gifted the IRA what they wanted

Well no Mowlam and Blair did that

 

[Grendel]

HA! Yes, I remember that it was clear that a leave vote was a vote for leaving without a deal - WOW.

The rest of your post about reunification shows how detached you seem to have become from reality and how that would solve a hard Brexit. We both know how much trouble, violence and deaths that would cause.

A price worth paying to you no doubt.

What do you think the 45% voting to leave in Ireland meant? You honestly think they wanted to stay in the customs union and FOM and voted leave? What did they want?

 

[skybluetony176]

Yes I’m aware it caused problems, hence my long post describing how the Army helped police it and how not being in the SM will cause huge problems.


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My family mainly reside in Newtown Butler, recently in the news for a bomb on the border. It’s basically a cross roads, one road takes you to the lough, one takes you to Clones in the south (near enough to walk), one takes you out towards the main road to Cavan and ultimately Dublin, this is the junction where the bomb was and the other road take you to Lisnaskea. The roads to the south both had army checkpoints at the border as normal but unusually there was also a third permanent one on the road to Lisnaskea. This was purely because of the smuggling in the area. What Grendull doesn’t seem to realise is that the IRA was partly funded by organised crime. And smuggling is organised crime, which is exactly why the army was so involved in policing it whether that be regular or UDR.

 

[djr8369]

So actually you have no firm idea on smuggling - fair enough - can’t see how fuel can actually get through Ireland but whatever

So would Eire be breaking the rules on WTO or just the uk?

What do you mean no firm idea, I think I’ve explained in a fair amount of depth the fact that it goes on while in the SM and will increase a lot if we are in different tariff structures?

Eire wouldn’t be breaking the same WTO rules as us but they may still have some commitment but they would need a border of course as they have to restrict access into EIre and the SM.


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[skybluetony176]

The GFA allows an independence referendum under exactly these circumstances doesn’t it? Also a referendum every 7 years once the agreement was signed doesn’t it?

It really wasn’t.

 

[Grendel]

What do you mean no firm idea, I think I’ve explained in a fair amount of depth the fact that it goes on while in the SM and will increase a lot if we are in different tariff structures?

Eire wouldn’t be breaking the same WTO rules as us but they may still have some commitment but they would need a border of course as they have to restrict access into EIre and the SM.


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Actually you haven’t explained smuggling at all and what that actually entails and how in practice it would work or where it would come from - I could actually help you with the argument if you want but why should I

 

[djr8369]

Actually you haven’t explained smuggling at all and what that actually entails and how in practice it would work or where it would come from - I could actually help you with the argument if you want but why should I

Why do you require an explanation of the definition of smuggling?


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[Grendel]

It really wasn’t.

Sure

Irish reunification

 

[Grendel]

Why do you require an explanation of the definition of smuggling?


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What can be smuggled that now can’t and what would be gained by it

 

[skybluetony176]

Well no Mowlam and Blair did that

Absolute ignoramus

 

[skybluetony176]

Sure

Irish reunification

Yes I’ve read that a number of times over the years. Anytime you want to read it yourself please do. I wonder if you’ll be able to understand it enough to understand why you are wrong.

 

[djr8369]

What can be smuggled that now can’t and what would be gained by it

Being in different tariff structures would create more price differentials and hence provide more opportunities for profit.


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[skybluetony176]

What can be smuggled that now can’t and what would be gained by it

There’s no point in smuggling now, anyone can cross the border freely now so the practice was killed overnight. Are you really not getting this?

 

[Grendel]

Yes I’ve read that a number of times over the years. Anytime you want to read it yourself please do. I wonder if you’ll be able to understand it enough to understand why you are wrong.

No Tony I’m not wrong but hey ho

 

[Grendel]

Being in different tariff structures would create more price differentials and hence provide more opportunities for profit.


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As much profit as in an open border when you could make 10 grand per car profit?

 

[Grendel]

There’s no point in smuggling now, anyone can cross the border freely now so the practice was killed overnight. Are you really not getting this?

Oh yes I’m getting the irony of it

 

[skybluetony176]

Being in different tariff structures would create more price differentials and hence provide more opportunities for profit.


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There’s a Tesco’s in Enniskillen and on any day it’s full of cars with southern plates, before the pound collapsed my family would make the short crossing into Clones to fill their cars up. This all used to be done by smuggling.

 

[skybluetony176]

I see Boris sent a police officer to sleep today with his incoherent waffling.

 

[skybluetony176]

Oh yes I’m getting the irony of it

In which case you really aren’t getting it because there is no irony.

 

[djr8369]

As much profit as in an open border when you could make 10 grand per car profit?

Does your entire anti-Eu argument come down to this very specific case where the SM didn’t work in the favour of Jaguar? As this is the third time you’ve brought it up and when I press you on a point it’s always the thing you retreat to.

I assume by your laser like focus on smuggling means you now accept we will require a border for our future trading arrangements?


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[skybluetony176]

No Tony I’m not wrong but hey ho

Well the only part of it you’ve quoted is a sound bite taken out of context from the entire passage so you are very wrong.

 

[Ian1779]

I see Boris sent a police officer to sleep today with his incoherent waffling.

I see Boris channeled his inner Ivan Drago....

‘if she dies... she dies....’

 

[skybluetony176]

Does your entire anti-Eu argument come down to this very specific case where the SM didn’t work in the favour of Jaguar? As this is the third time you’ve brought it up and when I press you on a point it’s always the thing you retreat to.

I assume by your laser like focus on smuggling means you now accept we will require a border for our future trading arrangements?


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It’s incredible. He’s trying to disagree with you by providing you with examples of why you’re right.

 

[Grendel]

Does your entire anti-Eu argument come down to this very specific case where the SM didn’t work in the favour of Jaguar? As this is the third time you’ve brought it up and when I press you on a point it’s always the thing you retreat to.

I assume by your laser like focus on smuggling means you now accept we will require a border for our future trading arrangements?


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No it doesn’t - what I find funny is that open borders of different currencies and fiscal taxation stops illegal smuggling by just legitimising it. It’s funny.

In Benelux one country (I can’t remember which) had a huge luxury car tax - I think Netherlands - and they saved 50% by opening the border. Before the opening they’d have tried to do it but failed mostly and were fined. Unless you have a unified currency and fiscal policy all an open border does is turn a blind eye to the “smuggler”

Imaging if we are still in Europe and the Euro collapses versus the pound. The goods in the south are then so much cheaper than the north so all that happens is the north goes south to fill its petrol and saves a load of money, or buys at the nearest supermarket and drives back. From a commercial viewpoint the open border has Been a massive headache. Just think say if Wales was independent and it’s new currency was a 10th of the pound but there is no border what would you actually do? People would just drive and shop there

Open borders don’t work if you have a different currency and fiscal policy.

How does VAT work? It is 22% in Ireland isn’t it? What is fuel duty? It’s a nightmare.

 

[djr8369]

No it doesn’t - what I find funny is that open borders of different currencies and fiscal taxation stops illegal smuggling by just legitimising it. It’s funny.

In Benelux one country (I can’t remember which) had a huge luxury car tax - I think Netherlands - and they saved 50% by opening the border. Before the opening they’d have tried to do it but failed mostly and were fined. Unless you have a unified currency and fiscal policy all an open border does is turn a blind eye to the “smuggler”

Imaging if we are still in Europe and the Euro collapses versus the pound. The goods in the south are then so much cheaper than the north so all that happens is the north goes south to fill its petrol and saves a load of money, or buys at the nearest supermarket and drives back. From a commercial viewpoint the open border has Been a massive headache. Just think say if Wales was independent and it’s new currency was a 10th of the pound but there is no border what would you actually do? People would just drive and shop there

Open borders don’t work if you have a different currency and fiscal policy.

How does VAT work? It is 22% in Ireland isn’t it? What is fuel duty? It’s a nightmare.

Are you now making a case for joining the euro?

Does any of this negate the points I have raised about smuggling increasing if we are in a different tariff arrangement to the EU?


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[Grendel]

Are you now making a case for joining the euro?

Does any of this negate the points I have raised about smuggling increasing if we are in a different tariff arrangement to the EU?


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We are in a different fiscal arrangement in VAT terms - can you show me how the smuggling trade will work and which contraband will be the most likely?