The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (62 Viewers)

SIR ERNIE · Sep 7, 2019

fernandopartridge said:
You've made yourself look a right clown

Er, no he hasn’t. He came on here and stated that many of his Labour voting workmates couldn’t stand Corbyn and consequently wouldn’t vote Labour.

Predictably you lot attacked him but have been unable to deny that what he said is in fact true of many traditional Labour voters.

Voters look at that Labour front bench and are horrified at the prospect of Corbyn, McDonnell, Thornberry and Abbott getting control of the country. That's a fact, convince me otherwise.

In the current circumstances Labour should piss the next GE. The likelihood that they won’t is purely down to the rank unpopularity of Corbyn and his mob.

They’d better hope they can mobilise the gullible student vote because the bulk of the electorate simply don’t trust them.

Grendel · Sep 7, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
Not sure what bearing that has on it but my god you’re ignorant to the real world. It’s a UN report published annually, it’s called the world happiness report. Go and look for yourself, I’m sure it’s almost certainly on your usual source for information Wikipedia.

I think wiki is your bible Tony

Oh I’ve looked at it Tony. Of course it has something to do with it.

A lot of factors are perception of lifestyle happiness derived from the quality of life away from the workplace. So lack of urbanisation is a major factor. Outdoor lifestyle and working arrangements akin to that society

Even then it’s worthy of note 18 - 24 year olds in these countries are similar to other countries and the bulk of “happiness” is in an older age bracket. Furthermore migrants in these countries general are less happy

Countries such as New Zealand and Canada have wealth disparity similar to the uk.

If the uk instigated taxation policies similar to the nordic countries it would increase every taxation by 50%. I would dispute this would make anyone happy as the reports indicate countries with stability in fiscal strategy tend to fair better

There’s one anomaly but low population density and a large constant indigenous population are also clear factors in this - less strain on social services are obvious factors which will not be replicated here

Not a great advert for the Eu big countries either is it. I think though the uk fares considerably better than most of the larger industrialised countries under Eu rule.

fernandopartridge · Sep 7, 2019

Grendel said:
No it isn’t it’s state interference in private enterprise which is classic socialist dogma - it’s also an expensive process

Socialism is by its essence state over enterprise

Look at some if the other gems. Giving of shares (10%?) back to the workers. In a free market global economy this is a disaster. It will have an immediate fear factor in the FTSE as shares will be sold these companies devalued

Last week McDonnell was spluttering on about making a right to buy from landlords. Excellent way to depress the house market and create negative equity on existing properties as well as robbing private enterprise - it’s similar to the farm robbing of the Marxist Mugawbe - ended really well

Increasing corporation tax - yep that’s going to encourage more foreign investment

Higher taxation in the top 5% - state intervention in free market forces.

All these policies are regression policies of state above free market forces. They will only have negative impacts on growth and investment

Funny really, your former employer would have disappeared completely in the 70s if it wasn't for state intervention (not that the nationalised company was any good). Again after the last recession it got a massive loan from the EIB underwritten by the UK government.

Deleted member 5849 · Sep 7, 2019

SIR ERNIE said:
the gullible student vote

As opposed to the thick as pigshit elderly vote, wrapped up in dreams of Empire...?

Nowt like a sweeping patronising generalisation, chap.

SIR ERNIE · Sep 7, 2019

Deleted member 5849 said:
As opposed to the thick as pigshit Brexiteer vote...?

Nowt like a sweeping patronising generalisation, chap.

haha nice, "thick as pigshit Brexiteer"

just don't whinge when someone uses the term Remoaner, ok chap.

fernandopartridge · Sep 7, 2019

Grendel said:
I think wiki is your bible Tony

Oh I’ve looked at it Tony. Of course it has something to do with it.

A lot of factors are perception of lifestyle happiness derived from the quality of life away from the workplace. So lack of urbanisation is a major factor. Outdoor lifestyle and working arrangements akin to that society

Even then it’s worthy of note 18 - 24 year olds in these countries are similar to other countries and the bulk of “happiness” is in an older age bracket. Furthermore migrants in these countries general are less happy

Countries such as New Zealand and Canada have wealth disparity similar to the uk.

If the uk instigated taxation policies similar to the nordic countries it would increase every taxation by 50%. I would dispute this would make anyone happy as the reports indicate countries with stability in fiscal strategy tend to fair better

There’s one anomaly but low population density and a large constant indigenous population are also clear factors in this - less strain on social services are obvious factors which will not be replicated here

Not a great advert for the Eu big countries either is it. I think though the uk fares considerably better than most of the larger industrialised countries under Eu rule.

The UK is a low wage economy reliant on credit. Household debt of 86% to GDP compared with 52% or 58% in Germany and France.

Grendel · Sep 7, 2019

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
How terrible. Wanting workers to have some ownership of the companies they work hard for and so getting more reward for it. Doesn't this encourage hard work, efficiency and professionalism from the workers because they've got a financial stake in how the company does? Resulting in improved company performance and long term increases in the share price and therefore FTSE?

As opposed to those current shareholders whose whole effort for the company involves a call to their broker to buy the shares.

Companies like John Lewis/Waitrose are co-ops. And FYI by far the biggest reason of poor performance and lost value/failure of companies is at board/CEO level with poor decision making and investment. The same people who are paid the most and are given the highest pay rises, decided by the shareholders.

Depress the housing market, or set it at a sensible level enabling people to have security of the shelter over their heads? Not artificially inflated by landlords whose sole aim is to profit and massively overcharge rent so they make money off the deal. Or do you think a return to fuedalism would be a good thing, because that is the ultimate destination of that model - a handful of people owning everything while everyone else is a peasant paying to work someone elses land.

Have you ever bought a car on finance? That's got negative equity the second you sign the contract. Besides if all properties are now devalued your new home would cost you less anyway, so it's swings and roundabouts.

Plus it's nothing like farm robbing. 'Right to buy' is hardly storming the house and killing the current owner (which is actually far more a far-right, market-driven, dog-eat-dog thing to do) - it's BUYING it from the owner. It's no different to the law on shares that once you buy 30% of a company you have to make an offer for the remaining shares.

I thought we wanted to take back control?

The highest earners tend to have much lower effective tax rates than most, even if their actual contributions are higher because so much is tied up in trusts, offshore etc. Of course we could remove the state intervention. Why don't we just all steal stuff from each other or take a rich person hostage and force them to sign over all their money and possessions? Because the STATE says we can't and the STATE will punish you if you do. It's state intervention that allows the market running the way it does - take it away and you've got anarchy and a free-for-all.

Waffling nonsense

I haven’t time to deal with all of it but I’ll ficus on one section

Share ownership is an appalling idea. It’s a soft soap to workers co operative ideas that were an unmitigated disaster. There is zero evidence productivity increases - the opposite actually. The FTSE is clearly global. Shares would be downgraded as the City would fear that more shares would go. Any nationalisation of shares in a private company spells doom.

It’s amusing you mention the John Lewis group. I recruited someone last year from there and her observation was it was an awful place that offered no inclusivity at all. The bonuses were minimal compared to her new company and the pension share contribution was an embarrassment

Grendel · Sep 7, 2019

fernandopartridge said:
The UK is a low wage economy reliant on credit. Household debt of 86% to GDP compared with 52% or 58% in Germany and France.

Still happier than France though in the index I believe

Deleted member 5849 · Sep 7, 2019

SIR ERNIE said:
haha nice, "thick as pigshit Brexiteer"

just don't whinge when someone uses the term Remoaner, ok chap.

Point is, you're being an utter twat with your description of students as gullible.

You've lost all claim to any kind of moral high ground when people then call you a clueless c**t for voting against the foreigners.

SIR ERNIE · Sep 7, 2019

Deleted member 5849 said:
Point is, you're being an utter twat with your description of students as gullible.

You've lost all claim to any kind of moral high ground when people then call you a clueless c**t for voting against the foreigners.

Tell you what, why don't you try arguing against my post instead of name calling, then we can see who's clueless.

chap

Grendel · Sep 7, 2019

Deleted member 5849 said:
Point is, you're being an utter twat with your description of students as gullible.

You've lost all claim to any kind of moral high ground when people then call you a clueless c**t for voting against the foreigners.

Students are very gullible. They just take the bribe. One election Clegg - next Corbyn - if Farage offered free university education and free beer they’d vote for him.

Deleted member 5849 · Sep 7, 2019

Grendel said:
Students are very gullible. They just take the bribe.

Not as gullible as former JLR workers

Deleted member 5849 · Sep 7, 2019

SIR ERNIE said:
Tell you what, why don't you try arguing against my post instead of name calling, then we can see who's clueless.

chap

I am arguing against your post, but hardly surprised you can't understand that, chap.

skybluetony176 · Sep 7, 2019

Grendel said:
I think wiki is your bible Tony

Oh I’ve looked at it Tony. Of course it has something to do with it.

A lot of factors are perception of lifestyle happiness derived from the quality of life away from the workplace. So lack of urbanisation is a major factor. Outdoor lifestyle and working arrangements akin to that society

Even then it’s worthy of note 18 - 24 year olds in these countries are similar to other countries and the bulk of “happiness” is in an older age bracket. Furthermore migrants in these countries general are less happy

Countries such as New Zealand and Canada have wealth disparity similar to the uk.

If the uk instigated taxation policies similar to the nordic countries it would increase every taxation by 50%. I would dispute this would make anyone happy as the reports indicate countries with stability in fiscal strategy tend to fair better

There’s one anomaly but low population density and a large constant indigenous population are also clear factors in this - less strain on social services are obvious factors which will not be replicated here

Not a great advert for the Eu big countries either is it. I think though the uk fares considerably better than most of the larger industrialised countries under Eu rule.

Germany ranks higher than us which is far more industrialised than us.

Lifestyle happiness is also to do with the workplace. Shorter working hours, min 25 days paid holiday a year, more public holidays. All factors in allowing happiness away from the workplace.

Countries like Canada and New Zealand has similar wealth disparity to the U.K. yet rank happier. You’re dismissing your own arguments by even bringing that up.

The Nordic model clearly works on every yard stick so your personal assumptions based on ignorance are no basis to dispute it.

Strain on social services can be managed with real investment and long term planning instead of budget cuts and short term strategies. I’ll give you one example of an elderly person that I personally know from Denmark. At a certain age (don’t recall the age) a gift from the Danish health service is the cosmetic procedure known as an eye lift. Reason being is it helps stave off eye conditions associated with age so is treated as a precautionary measure to save money later on by not treating conditions that this procedure can stop. You would never get that forward thinking with the doctrine you buy into yet this is common place in the Nordic model.

You have countries like Iceland that suffers from high rates of depression in part due to long winters when it barely gets light yet they still somehow manage to rank higher than us.

All the countries above us have issues but crucially they have a different mentality to people like you. They understand the value of things whereas you’ve tapped into politics that only understands the cost.

Grendel · Sep 7, 2019

Deleted member 5849 said:
Not as gullible as former JLR workers

Students will vote for short term gain - it seems you have lost the debate and resorting to senseless insults

Grendel · Sep 7, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
Germany ranks higher than us which is far more industrialised than us.

Lifestyle happiness is also to do with the workplace. Shorter working hours, min 25 days paid holiday a year, more public holidays. All factors in allowing happiness away from the workplace.

Countries like Canada and New Zealand has similar wealth disparity to the U.K. yet rank happier. You’re dismissing your own arguments by even bringing that up.

The Nordic model clearly works on every yard stick so your personal assumptions based on ignorance are no basis to dispute it.

Strain on social services can be managed with real investment and long term planning instead of budget cuts and short term strategies. I’ll give you one example of an elderly person that I personally know from Denmark. At a certain age (don’t recall the age) a gift from the Danish health service is the cosmetic procedure known as an eye lift. Reason being is it helps stave off eye conditions associated with age so is treated as a precautionary measure to save money later on by treating conditions that this procedure can stop. You would never get that forward thinking with the doctrine you buy into yet this is common place in the Nordic model.

You have countries like Iceland that suffers from high rates of depression in part due to long winters when it barely gets light yet they still somehow manage to rank higher than us.

All the countries above us have issues but crucially they have a different mentality to people like you. They understand the value of things whereas you’ve tapped into politics that only understands the cost.

You do realise Tony how stupid this makes you look?

skybluetony176 · Sep 7, 2019

SIR ERNIE said:
haha nice, "thick as pigshit Brexiteer"

just don't whinge when someone uses the term Remoaner, ok chap.

In an effort to dismiss what was clearly an ironic reply to your generalisation you’ve in another twist of irony displayed that exact behaviour.

skybluetony176 · Sep 7, 2019

Grendel said:
You do realise Tony how stupid this makes you look?

The emptiness of your reply belittles it. You can’t even debate the points I raise in reply to what you said initially.

SIR ERNIE · Sep 7, 2019

Deleted member 5849 said:
I am arguing against your post, but hardly surprised you can't understand that, chap.

Nope, you've merely taken exception to my use of the word gullible. That's not arguing against my post. Try again but be quick please.

Grendel · Sep 7, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
The emptiness of your reply belittles it. You can’t even debate the points I raise in reply to what you said initially.

I can’t be bothered as you don’t believe them Tony it’s just wumming

Deleted member 5849 · Sep 7, 2019

SIR ERNIE said:
Nope, you've merely taken exception to my use of the word gullible. That's not arguing against my post. Try again but be quick please.

I'm arguing against your lazy and patronising generalisations, which shows your lack of critical skills, and lack of ability to think beyond a lazy generalised portrayal of the 'other' as being at fault for the ills of society.

Deleted member 5849 · Sep 7, 2019

Meanwhile, sane Tories are rising.

Don’t blame Boris Johnson for the Tory meltdown

SIR ERNIE · Sep 7, 2019

Deleted member 5849 said:
I'm arguing against your lazy and patronising generalisations, which shows your lack of critical skills, and lack of ability to think beyond a lazy generalised portrayal of the 'other' as being at fault for the ills of society.

sure. Ok, enjoy your day.

clint van damme · Sep 7, 2019

Grendel said:
No it isn’t it’s state interference in private enterprise which is classic socialist dogma - it’s also an expensive process

Socialism is by its essence state over enterprise

Look at some if the other gems. Giving of shares (10%?) back to the workers. In a free market global economy this is a disaster. It will have an immediate fear factor in the FTSE as shares will be sold these companies devalued

Last week McDonnell was spluttering on about making a right to buy from landlords. Excellent way to depress the house market and create negative equity on existing properties as well as robbing private enterprise - it’s similar to the farm robbing of the Marxist Mugawbe - ended really well

Increasing corporation tax - yep that’s going to encourage more foreign investment

Higher taxation in the top 5% - state intervention in free market forces.

All these policies are regression policies of state above free market forces. They will only have negative impacts on growth and investment

I worked for a large American corporation who did exactly what O'Donnell is proposing, it worked brilliantly.
I don't agree companies should be made to do it and I think the policy was all companies with over 250 employees should do it which I think is too small a workforce to implement this carte blanche by I definitely think it should be encouraged.
The guy who introduced it to our company once won American CEO of the year so hardly a fanatical communist.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Sep 7, 2019

Grendel said:
Waffling nonsense

I haven’t time to deal with all of it but I’ll ficus on one section

Share ownership is an appalling idea. It’s a soft soap to workers co operative ideas that were an unmitigated disaster. There is zero evidence productivity increases - the opposite actually. The FTSE is clearly global. Shares would be downgraded as the City would fear that more shares would go. Any nationalisation of shares in a private company spells doom.

It’s amusing you mention the John Lewis group. I recruited someone last year from there and her observation was it was an awful place that offered no inclusivity at all. The bonuses were minimal compared to her new company and the pension share contribution was an embarrassment

Do you not feel it's ridiculous that what a small handful of people 'feel' might happen has more of an effect on economic outlook than than what's actually happening in reality? Recessions, falling house-prices, wage deflation, falling share prices etc are all far more to do with knock-on effects of knee-jerk reactions of stock market brokers than actual business performance.

If you look at how and why stock exchanges came about compared to what they've become now they're changed beyond all recognition and the desire for self-regulation has all but disappeared because the risk for those that work there is minimised now - it's not their money so they're more willing to take chances with it.

I'll also point out going to co-ops is not nationalisation of shares. They remain in private hands.

skybluetony176 · Sep 7, 2019

Grendel said:
I can’t be bothered as you don’t believe them Tony it’s just wumming

Yet again I invite you to read the UN World happiness report, the IHD index and the GP index and explain why the countries that commonly rank higher than us are worse of than us with their Socialist Democracy than we would be following your politics akin to Trumpism? The best you’ve come up with so far is that 2 of those countries have similar wage disparity. Out of interest how do the US rate on that? Isn’t wealth inequality growing under Trumponomics?

Grendel · Sep 7, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
Yet again I invite you to read the UN World happiness report, the IHD index and the GP index and explain why the countries that commonly rank higher than us are worse of than us with their Socialist Democracy than we would be following your politics akin to Trumpism? The best you’ve come up with so far is that 2 of those countries have similar wage disparity. Out of interest how do the US rate on that? Isn’t wealth inequality growing under Trumponomics?

But you don’t believe in it Tony

Deleted member 5849 · Sep 7, 2019

SIR ERNIE said:
sure. Ok, enjoy your day.

You too.

skybluetony176 · Sep 7, 2019

Grendel said:
But you don’t believe in it Tony

Believe what? I’ve given you three yard sticks there that are tangible evidence. All you’ve quoted is your opinion based on ignorance of those three yard sticks. Why would I believe your opinion over quantifiable, historical data?

Grendel · Sep 7, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
Believe what? I’ve given you three yard sticks there that are tangible evidence. All you’ve quoted is your opinion based on ignorance of those three yard sticks. Why would I believe your opinion over quantifiable, historical data?

You don’t believe it Tony because in the UK you don’t vote for it. You vote Tory and UKIP

I can be pretty certain that the other remainers on this thread don’t and haven’t. You also have said you won’t be voting for this in the next election either,

So you actually don’t even believe your own opinion

You are “City Fan” from Twitter - an attention and likes craver who says he supports things he doesn’t

It’s a bid sad to be honest

skybluetony176 · Sep 7, 2019

Grendel said:
You don’t believe it Tony because in the UK you don’t vote for it. You vote Tory and UKIP

I can be pretty certain that the other remainers on this thread don’t and haven’t. You also have said you won’t be voting for this in the next election either,

So you actually don’t even believe your own opinion

You are “City Fan” from Twitter - an attention and likes craver who says he supports things he doesn’t

It’s a bid sad to be honest

Oh dear. Full blown meltdown. You OK hun?

I haven’t made up my mind and formed an opinion. In truth I like labour policies but I’m uncomfortable with the man and some of the people he surrounds himself with. The Tories I don’t like any of the false promises err sorry policies, I would trust the leader to babysit my children let alone run a country for their benefit and don’t even get me started on what’s left of the party, the Lib Dem’s I have little time for full stop and the new leader has yet done nothing to persuade me otherwise so at the moment I find myself rooting for the Greens, labour has an outside chance but I’ll make that decision when I have to. Ie a general election not conned by Boris, still laughing at him on that.

I’ve provided you with three tangible sources that if your political will can stand up will help you prove that. Yet you refuse to do so. In the words of your hero “are you chicken”.

Grendel · Sep 7, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
Oh dear. Full blown meltdown. You OK hun?

I haven’t made up my mind and formed an opinion. In truth I like labour policies but I’m uncomfortable with the man and some of the people he surrounds himself with. The Tories I don’t like any of the false promises err sorry policies, I would trust the leader to babysit my children let alone run a country for their benefit and don’t even get me started on what’s left of the party, the Lib Dem’s I have little time for full stop and the new leader has yet done nothing to persuade me otherwise so at the moment I find myself rooting for the Greens, labour has an outside chance but I’ll make that decision when I have to. Ie a general election not conned by Boris, still laughing at him on that.

I’ve provided you with three tangible sources that if your political will can stand up will help you prove that. Yet you refuse to do so. In the words of your hero “are you chicken”.

Clearly me whose having a meltdown

Next week Tony describes the benefits of a vegan lifestyle while tucking into a McDonald’s quarter pounder

skybluetony176 · Sep 7, 2019

Grendel said:
Clearly me whose having a meltdown

Next week Tony describes the benefits of a vegan lifestyle while tucking into a McDonald’s quarter pounder

Dear oh dear. You are lost.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Sep 7, 2019

Grendel said:
Students will vote for short term gain - it seems you have lost the debate and resorting to senseless insults

Come on - if anyone is likely to vote with a more long term thinking it's students. Going to be around a long time and still have some of that ideology before the real world beats it out of them. Elderly vote for short-term gain because they know they won't be around forever. Working age people vote for largely short term benefits because they've got financial pressures and families to take of that take precedence over more ideological long term wishes. The rich and business people will take short term tax cuts etc because they always want more.

Of course students will be tempted to vote for stuff that will benefit them right now, but so is everyone. Offer child tax credit or free childcare to parents they'll vote for it. Offer to increase the pension/fuel allowance/TV lience and old people will vote for it. Offer more free care to those caring for elderly relatives and they'll vote for it. Offer lower tax rates to the rich or less regulation of their dealings and the rich will vote for that.

it's well known one of the biggest problems with business is it goes for short term gains over long term planning. People have spent decades trying to work out a way to incorporate longer term and intangible costs/benefits into business planning with little success - even now the vast majority of business decisions are made on bottom line figures and shareholder value.

martcov · Sep 7, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Lol so everything is ‘state intervention’. Is that what caused the 2008 crash?

Joke being that the EU is against some forms of state intervention to ensure a level playing field for companies. But G doesn’t like the evil EU.

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (62 Viewers)

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