The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (58 Viewers)

[Deleted member 5849]

Denying a vote on decisions is now democratic, it seems.

 

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[Philosoraptor]

Given that we're a parliamentary democracy and that there has been a general election since then where both main parties campaigned on the basis of a deal I'd say that trumps whatever the perceived outcome of the referendum was

The mandate still needs to be delivered by Government no matter what political party is in power.

The second of the Two Treaties of Government on the origin, extent and end of Civil Government is always worth a flick through.

It is still the go to book to work out if you live in a Tyranny or not.

 

[shmmeee]

This is utter tosh at its absolute best.

Solid response, excellent well researched points put across in a convincing manner. I’m sold.

 

[shmmeee]

Only one poll that counts. That would be the referendum which holds the democratic mandate of around 33 million voters.

On a side note political parties would wish to have a political mandate like that.

Why that poll and not any of the ones after it? Why can’t I say the only referendum that matters happened in 1975?

This is why “democracy” is shaky ground, as soon as it’s pointed out that other democracy conflicts suddenly it’s not about democracy it’s about one opinion poll in 2016.

Edit: I’d also again point out that more people voted for MPs in Parliament than voted Leave. If you care about the size of democratic mandate, you should be backing the current democratically elected representatives of the people. Their mandate is larger and more recent.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

It was a deal..... Boris presented it to them and Merkel and his mates have countered it and made it impossible to agree to

Do you know what you've described there? A negotiation, not a deal.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

No comparison is it. We shall see at the next elections if the representatives will change due to them not respecting the majority of what people voted for

Like in 2017?

 

[Philosoraptor]

Why that poll and not any of the ones after it? Why can’t I say the only referendum that matters happened in 1975?

This is why “democracy” is shaky ground, as soon as it’s pointed out that other democracy conflicts suddenly it’s not about democracy it’s about one opinion poll in 2016.

It's not on shaky ground.

The point would be that everyone had a chance to put forward their opinion in the two referenda which you mentioned. One was a consIderable time after the other. Any other 'poll' doesn't carry the weight of asking a small percentage of the population. If it did then we would do General Elections like this.

It seems a strange thing what you are saying.

 

[Astute]

No thanks, you’ve just made up more opinions of mine. The fact you’re having so much trouble understanding the difference considering he UK’s self imposed red lines and the differences between the two countries situations is quite bizarre.

I know exactly what is going on. I also only come out with the truth. I also don't have an agenda.

How about you?

 

[Astute]

Switzerland is a member of EFTA and Schengen you mentalist that’s a big difference from what we want and as I’ve already pointed out to you that’s a well trodden path.

From what we want?

You mean you actually know what the fuck we want? Because if you do you are very much alone. But you will always be backed up on the matter although nobody knows what we are trying to get.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

A thread I don't post in usually.

The Labour position of either their deal or remain in the EU after another referendum is something I really just can't get my head around.

if we are to have a second referendum, which to me seems to just ignores the democratic will of the first referendum, shouldn't the choices be between a no deal break from the EU, and the revised deal labour potentially has to offer.

While I agree about the Labour deal or Remain being on the ballot but not leave, I have pointed ut that to get to this point of a second referendum Labour has to negotiate this new deal first. Si if the EU want us to remain, and as suspected many7 in Labour want us to remain what is the incentive for either party to negotiate?

Plus given our crack team of negotiators I wouldn't put it past the new deal having us taking the Euro and speaking French as our official language.

The only way to prevent these problems with a 2nd ref is no deal (WTO rules apply) and remain. Very clear, both ready to go immediately as the T&C's are already set out.

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

Denying a vote on decisions is now democratic, it seems.

HAHA the irony in that, embarrassing

 

[Astute]

You and Grendull spent god knows how many pages loosing your shit at anyone who said that French wanting to sell us cheese and wine and Germany wanting to sell us cars was not the ace in the pack that gave us the upper hand in negotiations. So yes, you’ve changed your tune. In fact I predict that you’re about to change it again as per your usual MO.

I am saying exactly what I was saying from the start.

We have a much better hand than people like yourself want anyone to believe. The problem is that people like yourself keep making our hand weaker.

Just like we threatened a no deal to bring them finally to the table. So what happens is a new law is brought out to try and outlaw a no deal.

Can you imagine if a new law was brought out to ensure there was a no deal?

 

[shmmeee]

It's not on shaky ground.

The point would be that everyone had a chance to put forward their opinion in the two referenda which you mentioned. One was a consIderable time after the other. Any other 'poll' doesn't carry the weight of asking a small percentage of the population. If it did then we would do General Elections like this.

It seems a strange thing what you are saying.

Let’s keep this simple: why don’t you accept the result of the 2017 GE?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Let’s keep this simple: why don’t you accept the result of the 2017 GE?

Pro Bonar Law

 

[Astute]

Because we are unable to decide what we want. Next question?

Someone talking sense at last.

 

[djr8369]

This is utter tosh at its absolute best.

But it isn’t.


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[Philosoraptor]

While I agree about the Labour deal or Remain being on the ballot but not leave, I have pointed ut that to get to this point of a second referendum Labour has to negotiate this new deal first. Si if the EU want us to remain, and as suspected many7 in Labour want us to remain what is the incentive for either party to negotiate?

Plus given our crack team of negotiators I wouldn't put it past the new deal having us taking the Euro and speaking French as our official language.

The only way to prevent these problems with a 2nd ref is no deal (WTO rules apply) and remain. Very clear, both ready to go immediately as the T&C's are already set out.

The problem with a second referendum is that it seems very democratic but it is one of the most undemocratic things to do.

The referendum which has taken place needs to be addressed first, acted up on and to see the results of the decision of the electorate free from EU before a second one should be given to the Public.

A good timeframe needs to be passed.

 

[shmmeee]

The problem with a second referendum is that it seems very democratic but it is one of the most undemocratic things to do.

The referendum which has taken place needs to be addressed first, acted up on and to see the results of the decision of the electorate free from EU before a second one should be given to the Public.

A good timeframe needs to be passed.

“Voting is one of the most undemocratic things to do, yet the exact same vote three years ago is the peak of democracy”

It’s a bold play, I’ll give you that.

I assume by this logic you’re also against a GE in the next three years?

 

[Sick Boy]

I know exactly what is going on. I also only come out with the truth. I also don't have an agenda.

How about you?

Says the guy who posts link to Guido Fawkes...yeah right!

You like to portray your opinion as ‘the truth’, while making up opinions of others.

I’ve long been an advocate of the EEA option, yet you’ve labelled me as remain whatever.

I’m an Irish citizen mate, it makes no difference to me, I’m not the one losing my rights, unlike you.

 

[djr8369]

I am saying exactly what I was saying from the start.

We have a much better hand than people like yourself want anyone to believe. The problem is that people like yourself keep making our hand weaker.

Just like we threatened a no deal to bring them finally to the table. So what happens is a new law is brought out to try and outlaw a no deal.

Can you imagine if a new law was brought out to ensure there was a no deal?

No deal isn’t a credible threat. Even if you forget the fact it would be more damaging to us and hence about as sane as trying to win an argument by shitting your own pants it still makes no sense whatsoever because we’re not just trying to strike a deal with the EU. We’re trying to come up with an arrangement which address too many conflicting needs on our part.

No deal might scare the EU, a bit, but it doesn’t change trade law, the GFA, economics or reality.


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[djr8369]

Says the guy who posts link to Guido Fawkes...yeah right!

.

Must have missed that but it does explain a lot.




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[Philosoraptor]

Let’s keep this simple: why don’t you accept the result of the 2017 GE?

I don't understand the question? If you are trying to link a General Election which has many variables in it to overturn a direct question posed by a Government I think is fanciful.

Whilst Governments are not tied to follow other Government legislative policies, successive Governments are tied to follow directions given to it by the people.

 

[Sick Boy]

I am saying exactly what I was saying from the start.

We have a much better hand than people like yourself want anyone to believe. The problem is that people like yourself keep making our hand weaker.

Just like we threatened a no deal to bring them finally to the table. So what happens is a new law is brought out to try and outlaw a no deal.

Can you imagine if a new law was brought out to ensure there was a no deal?

Hahaha classic. That’s it, parrot the Mail and somehow place the blame on ordinary working people who have weakened the countries hand - hahaha!

 

[Sick Boy]

Must have missed that but it does explain a lot.




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He’s posted them before to back up his viewpoint and tries to make out he has no agenda.

 

[djr8369]

Whilst Governments are not tied to follow other Government legislative policies, they are tied to follow directions given to it by the people.

Tbf the government are not tied to follow directions delivered via referendum, not matter how much people would like them to be.

That aside, his point is that the mandate from the referendum was for a deal and the mandate from the GE was for a deal.



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[Philosoraptor]

“Voting is one of the most undemocratic things to do, yet the exact same vote three years ago is the peak of democracy”

It’s a bold play, I’ll give you that.

I assume by this logic you’re also against a GE in the next three years?

A General Election by definition is different to a referendum.

We had a choice a few years back if we wanted to keep the FPTP or change to STV. The People's democratic viewpoint has already been assessed on which system they wanted, and the ramifications of it through a referendum.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I don't understand the question? If you are trying to link a General Election which has many variables in it to overturn a direct question posed by a Government I think is fanciful.

Whilst Governments are not tied to follow other Government legislative policies, successive Governments are tied to follow directions given to it by the people.

But the direct question wasn't as direct as it seemed. The leave option had so many potential scenarios put forward of which almost none were feasible. People weren't voting on a direct proposal but something they'd decided leave meant in their own head.

It's like me saying I want a pie instead of Lincolnshire pork sausages for dinner, thinking I'd be getting steak and kidney, only to find there aren't any. So it's chicken and mushroom or nothing, even though I don't like chicken and mushroom and had I known that was the option I'd have opted for the sausages instead.

 

[CCFCSteve]

But the direct question wasn't as direct as it seemed. The leave option had so many potential scenarios put forward of which almost none were feasible. People weren't voting on a direct proposal but something they'd decided leave meant in their own head.

It's like me saying I want a pie instead of Lincolnshire pork sausages for dinner, thinking I'd be getting steak and kidney, only to find there aren't any. So it's chicken and mushroom or nothing, even though I don't like chicken and mushroom and had I known that was the option I'd have opted for the sausages instead.

What’s wrong with chicken and mushroom ?! : )

 

[djr8369]

A General Election by definition is different to a referendum.

We had a choice a few years back if we wanted to keep the FPTP or change to STV. The People's democratic viewpoint has already been assessed on which system they wanted, and the ramifications of it through a referendum.

Yes with a very clear and specific outcome. Leaving with no deal is like STV winning and then a minority of people deciding they fancied changing the voting mechanism to raised hands and shouting.


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[Philosoraptor]

Yes with a very clear and specific outcome. Leaving with no deal is like STV winning and then a minority of people deciding they fancied changing the voting mechanism to raised hands and shouting.


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Whilst being a fan of Democracy, the intrinsic Liberty and Equality part of it anyway, I am no fan of political parties, or the way Parliament is set up in both houses.

I believe huge changes are needed to our Constitution.

 

[Astute]

Says the guy who posts link to Guido Fawkes...yeah right!

You like to portray your opinion as ‘the truth’, while making up opinions of others.

I’ve long been an advocate of the EEA option, yet you’ve labelled me as remain whatever.

I’m an Irish citizen mate, it makes no difference to me, I’m not the one losing my rights, unlike you.

Why are you so full of shit all the time? Why do you wait for me to post so you can instantly jump on it?

As you say you are not losing any rights so why come out with so much bullshit?

 

[Astute]

No deal isn’t a credible threat. Even if you forget the fact it would be more damaging to us and hence about as sane as trying to win an argument by shitting your own pants it still makes no sense whatsoever because we’re not just trying to strike a deal with the EU. We’re trying to come up with an arrangement which address too many conflicting needs on our part.

No deal might scare the EU, a bit, but it doesn’t change trade law, the GFA, economics or reality.


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Who said it would change any law? The only time EU laws get broken is when it is to the benefit of the EU.

The idea as I constantly say would have been to get everyone around a table and negotiate. 3 and half years later there still hasn't been any negotiating. How long are we supposed to put up with this bullshit for?

 

[Astute]

Must have missed that but it does explain a lot.




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Explains a lot?
I quoted them once. SB has quoted the Mail several times. Does that mean he agrees fully with the Mail?

Of course not. Just more bullshit he comes out with.

 

[Astute]

Hahaha classic. That’s it, parrot the Mail and somehow place the blame on ordinary working people who have weakened the countries hand - hahaha!

The Mail? You not quoting them today? Because you quote them much more than I ever have.

Just shows how much of a joke you are. Go play with yourself. Don't know why I ever bother replying to your bullshit.

 

[skybluetony176]

From what we want?

You mean you actually know what the fuck we want? Because if you do you are very much alone. But you will always be backed up on the matter although nobody knows what we are trying to get.

The government drew its red lines and it doesn’t involve EFTA or Schengen membership by any stretch of the imagination and that isn’t even a grey area. You really couldn’t have picked a worse country to draw a comparison to.