The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (4 Viewers)

[Astute]

Its nothing to do with Junker or the EU remember, we're taking back control and don't have to listen to anyone else.

It will be down to the UK to decide who is allowed in to the UK. Why can nobody say, or even give a vague idea, of what the rules are likely to be.

Its as if the whole thing wasn't thought through and we're now trying to do everything on the fly.

Ridiculous to vote to leave the EU as its in our best interests but then complain if the EU looks to protect its own interests.

Once again showing that leaving the EU will not resolve the issues people were claiming it would as it is not under the control of the EU.

So yet again you are confirming leaving the EU will not have any impact as it wasn't the EU causing the issues people were unhappy about.

So you won't listen to anything or anyone and know that you are right.

 

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[Astute]

In the real world I had a local policeman randomly banging on my door at 7am in Verona to check my I'D and work contract after producing it at the local commune.

That shouldn't happen. Everyone has a right to a peaceful life unless breaking the law.

 

[chiefdave]

So sick boy and Martcov are liars when they said astute could pitch his camper van in a EU country for how long he wants if we stay?

I would assume he either has the money to cover his stay and therefore meets the requirements or he would get a job and therefore meet the requirements.

What happens if someone gets a job for a week having come to the country and then is made unemployed? Can he stay then and seek work here?

Yes of course as he would still be in the first three months.

 

[chiefdave]

So you won't listen to anything or anyone and know that you are right.

Far from it but I fail to see how we can both leave the EU to enable us to have total control and not be dictated to by Europe and also be dependent on the wishes of the EU as to how we shape our own immigration policy.

 

[Astute]

I would assume he either has the money to cover his stay and therefore meets the requirements or he would get a job and therefore meet the requirements.

Yes of course as he would still be in the first three months.

And we have the manpower to check about 150,000 each year minimum?

Seems like you either live in cloud cuckoo land or can't think of a decent point.

So if they can't remove non EU residents when they have the paperwork how are they supposed to keep tabs on EU residents and remove them when needed?

 

[chiefdave]

No you wouldn't at all - deportation is made in exceptional circumstances and also if you had a job (say a bar job) for a week it becomes even more difficult - that's according to the EU website.

Aren't you making an assumption that the reason deportation is difficult is down to the EU and that leaving will resolve those issues when in fact the things that people object to aren't as a result of EU membership and will therefore still apply to us once we leave.

 

[Astute]

Far from it but I fail to see how we can both leave the EU to enable us to have total control and not be dictated to by Europe and also be dependent on the wishes of the EU as to how we shape our own immigration policy.

And you know you are twisting what I said.

 

[Astute]

Aren't you making an assumption that the reason deportation is difficult is down to the EU and that leaving will resolve those issues when in fact the things that people object to aren't as a result of EU membership and will therefore still apply to us once we leave.

So the EU rules are not down to the EU?

 

[chiefdave]

And we have the manpower to check about 150,000 each year minimum?

Seems like you either live in cloud cuckoo land or can't think of a decent point.

So if they can't remove non EU residents when they have the paperwork how are they supposed to keep tabs on EU residents and remove them when needed?

That's the whole point which you can't seem to comprehend!!! If we don't have the resources now how are these resources going to magically appear when we leave the EU?

I would suggest they won't and nothing will really change. People such as those who are currently here legitimately will continue to come here as we will still need their labour. Those who currently come here under more dubious circumstances will continue to come here as we have no means to stop them.

Thats not what I consider taking back control of our borders as we were promised.

 

[Astute]

That's the whole point which you can't seem to comprehend!!! If we don't have the resources now how are these resources going to magically appear when we leave the EU?

I would suggest they won't and nothing will really change. People such as those who are currently here legitimately will continue to come here as we will still need their labour. Those who currently come here under more dubious circumstances will continue to come here as we have no means to stop them.

Thats not what I consider taking back control of our borders as we were promised.

We have our borders. We can control who comes in. Either have money or a job to go to. If not entry is refused.

That is much better than we have now.

 

[chiefdave]

And you know you are twisting what I said.

No I'm not. I've repeatedly asked you what form the UKs immigration policy should take post Brexit and the response so far has been its down to Junker.

So the EU rules are not down to the EU?

EU rules are down to the EU, non EU rules are not down to the EU. If the rules that are causing us problems, or perceived problems, then leaving the EU will not resolve them.

 

[chiefdave]

We have our borders. We can control who comes in. Either have money or a job to go to. If not entry is refused.

That is much better than we have now.

But you've said we don't have the manpower to enforce a system like that. Or are you suggesting a ban on tourists?

 

[Astute]

But you've said we don't have the manpower to enforce a system like that. Or are you suggesting a ban on tourists?

Tourists don't have money?

 

[Astute]

No I'm not. I've repeatedly asked you what form the UKs immigration policy should take post Brexit and the response so far has been its down to Junker.

EU rules are down to the EU, non EU rules are not down to the EU. If the rules that are causing us problems, or perceived problems, then leaving the EU will not resolve them.

Juncker makes the rules as he goes along. Like his speech yesterday. Were you happy with it?

So what is brexit going to look like? Tell me and I will tell you what we should do.

 

[chiefdave]

Tourists don't have money?

They do, so if someone comes over with enough money for a weekend how do you ensure they leave at the end of the weekend?

 

[Sick Boy]

That shouldn't happen. Everyone has a right to a peaceful life unless breaking the law.

It's part of their own procedure and I wanted to live there, so I couldn't really complain.

 

[Astute]

They do, so if someone comes over with enough money for a weekend how do you ensure they leave at the end of the weekend?

You put them in a detention centre for the weekend. Happy now?

 

[chiefdave]

Juncker makes the rules as he goes along. Like his speech yesterday. Were you happy with it?

I agree with some of what he said and I disagree with other parts. I don't share your view that the EU is a dictatorship and he can do whatever he likes unchallenged.

Was I happy with it? Wasn't really happy or anything else, we're not a member anymore.

So what is brexit going to look like? Tell me and I will tell you what we should do.

But the point I have been making for months is the leave campaigners don't know what they want and the leave voters didn't know what they were voting for. I keep being told I am wrong and people knew exactly what they were voting for but even a relatively simple question like what our immigration policy will look like draws no answers.

 

[Sick Boy]

I think that's your make believe world.

I can probably dig out the form I filled in with him if you really want to see it. The only one making stuff up was you earlier.

 

[Astute]

It's part of their own procedure and I wanted to live there, so I couldn't really complain.

Still wrong though. Never had a problem in Italy myself...other than when I burn them off in my car in Milan :smuggrin:

 

[chiefdave]

You put them in a detention centre for the weekend. Happy now?

And what manpower is going round locating these people, carrying out those checks and putting them in the detention centre which presumably somebody will need to finance and build? What happens at the end of the weekend, remember we can't deport them as the non-EU regulations which previously stopped us doing that still apply.

 

[Astute]

I agree with some of what he said and I disagree with other parts. I don't share your view that the EU is a dictatorship and he can do whatever he likes unchallenged.

Was I happy with it? Wasn't really happy or anything else, we're not a member anymore.

But the point I have been making for months is the leave campaigners don't know what they want and the leave voters didn't know what they were voting for. I keep being told I am wrong and people knew exactly what they were voting for but even a relatively simple question like what our immigration policy will look like draws no answers.

Had an easy day at work today. We ended up talking about what Juncker said yesterday. It has given those who were 100% remain something to think about.

 

[Sick Boy]

Still wrong though. Never had a problem in Italy myself...other than when I burn them off in my car in Milan :smuggrin:

It was a bit too early, especially as I had pulled the night before I even got stopped by the traffic police for crossing the road whike a light was green.

 

[Astute]

And what manpower is going round locating these people, carrying out those checks and putting them in the detention centre which presumably somebody will need to finance and build? What happens at the end of the weekend, remember we can't deport them as the non-EU regulations which previously stopped us doing that still apply.

We would make our own laws. We wouldn't be stuck with what Juncker says.

 

[chiefdave]

We would make our own laws. We wouldn't be stuck with what Juncker says.

But we would still have to adhere to the likes of the council of Europe, ECHR etc of which we are still a member and those are the bodies creating the issues people complain about like not being able to deport people. Leaving the EU and ignoring Juncker won't change that.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Far from it but I fail to see how we can both leave the EU to enable us to have total control and not be dictated to by Europe and also be dependent on the wishes of the EU as to how we shape our own immigration policy.

In your earlier post you said "Its nothing to do with Junker or the EU remember, we're taking back control and don't have to listen to anyone else.

It will be down to the UK to decide who is allowed in to the UK. Why can nobody say, or even give a vague idea, of what the rules are likely to be.

Its as if the whole thing wasn't thought through and we're now trying to do everything on the fly.

Ridiculous to vote to leave the EU as its in our best interests but then complain if the EU looks to protect its own interests"

There is such a thing which is really really clever called "not showing your hand" (in negotiations of this immense importance both sides are simply ramping up the pressure on each other to see who blinks first by making bold & bland statements which can be negatively interpreted as not being certain of what they want...some seem to only be interested in the UK'S posturing & provoking but both sides are doing it)

In reply to the above - it is highly likely that our immigration policy will massively depend upon other factors that are agreed. That's what negotiation is all about. There is almost certainly much more agreement already on some things which benefit both sides - like security against terrorism & working together on such issues. The closer we get to exit day the more the agreed points will be declared.

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[SkyblueBazza]

But you've said we don't have the manpower to enforce a system like that. Or are you suggesting a ban on tourists?

Of course we have the manpower...the current unemployed will likely step in with immediate effect if they are offered a decent remuneration

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[SkyblueBazza]

They do, so if someone comes over with enough money for a weekend how do you ensure they leave at the end of the weekend?

The systems are in place to flag up one way travellers...eventually they would be found - here just as in France or Germany or Italy...& increasingly others too

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[SkyblueBazza]

It was a bit too early, especially as I had pulled the night before I even got stopped by the traffic police for crossing the road whike a light was green.

Such a renegade! Lol

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[SkyblueBazza]

We would make our own laws. We wouldn't be stuck with what Juncker says.

I wouldn't be TOO sure of that. The EU will still have a major influence over UK decisions...just will not be enforcing of their dictates

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[Captain Dart]

 

[Astute]

But we would still have to adhere to the likes of the council of Europe, ECHR etc of which we are still a member and those are the bodies creating the issues people complain about like not being able to deport people. Leaving the EU and ignoring Juncker won't change that.

We would have control of our own borders. This way an EU passport doesn't mean you can enter. It won't be foolproof. But it would be much better than we have now.

I would easily prefer it if we could let people in that need a safe place to live than just those that think they have the right to be here. Commit crimes, get arrested, serve time and get deported.

And as for those who enter then disappear...no benefits would be payable. No housing would have to be found. Big fines for anyone who employs them. Take away the reasons for being here.

Is there anyone who would prefer to let those in with an EU passport over those in need of a safe place to live?

 

[Sick Boy]

We would have control of our own borders. This way an EU passport doesn't mean you can enter. It won't be foolproof. But it would be much better than we have now.

I would easily prefer it if we could let people in that need a safe place to live than just those that think they have the right to be here. Commit crimes, get arrested, serve time and get deported.

And as for those who enter then disappear...no benefits would be payable. No housing would have to be found. Big fines for anyone who employs them. Take away the reasons for being here.

Is there anyone who would prefer to let those in with an EU passport over those in need of a safe place to live?

The government already fails to get to grips with illegal immigration now, what makes you think it's going to get any better? Chances are they/you will only be able to enter each others countries for a % of days our of the 365 as well.

 

[martcov]

They do, so if someone comes over with enough money for a weekend how do you ensure they leave at the end of the weekend?

Exactly. No thought is given to these things.

 

[martcov]

We would have control of our own borders. This way an EU passport doesn't mean you can enter. It won't be foolproof. But it would be much better than we have now.

I would easily prefer it if we could let people in that need a safe place to live than just those that think they have the right to be here. Commit crimes, get arrested, serve time and get deported.

And as for those who enter then disappear...no benefits would be payable. No housing would have to be found. Big fines for anyone who employs them. Take away the reasons for being here.

Is there anyone who would prefer to let those in with an EU passport over those in need of a safe place to live?

Why can't we do that now to EU citizens who stay over 3 months and try and claim benefits? How are you going to vet tourists to see which ones are going to stay and maybe work black? What about our rights to work and study in the EU?