The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (4 Viewers)

[Captain Dart]

Meanwhile in Catalonia, Spain is falling apart.

.. stormy waters ahead

 

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[SkyblueBazza]

Taken from the BBC:

"The former hospital medical director said the NHS had not modernised because of a historic lack of investment.

He said: "One of the things I regret is that 15 or 20 years ago, when we could see the change in the population, the NHS did not change its model of care.

"It should have done it then - there was a lot more money coming in but we didn't spend it all on the right things. We didn't spend it on transformation of the model of care."

The number of pensioners has increased by a third in the last 30 years and he said the system had not been able to deal with the increase in the number of elderly people in particular.

Except the NHS keeps on changing! The changes swallow-up any additional funds pretty quickly. So we end up with piecemeal changes in all areas that make little or no difference to the overall outcome. HE is at least partly responsible for that!
MORE funding for the NHS may have been in the offing if strain on the other infrastructure areas wasn't happening due to the relative massive influx of people over that time period. The system & investment levels could not keep up.

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[SkyblueBazza]

I suppose that they are also lazing about and not working either. If successive governments fail to invest, then they deserve to be held to account.

The scapegoating of migrants will continue until the NHS is at breaking point and the Tories are able to completely privatise it. Instead of anger being directed at the culprits, who/their mates, will no doubt be doing quite nicely financially out of it, it will direct at ordinary and legal working people in this country.

No the majority of them get work, but for meagre reward & then the rest of us then have to pay them money via tax for benefits to give them a livable income.
Meanwhile the guys at the top keep shouting 'Bank' & shipping any profits raised out of the country.

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[SkyblueBazza]

The NHS is receiving record funding amounts every year but can't keep up with rising demand. There are no scapegoats just harsh reality that our infrastructure across the board cannot cope with the mass migration it has had to deal with and a expanding elderly population. The NHS also provides a vast range of treatments that it couldn't even imagine just 20 years ago. If you want to blame someone over financing too I suggest you look at drug companies who charge extortionate prices for their products plus all the jobsworth management/consultancy companies who stick their snouts in the trough but improve nothing.

Targeting the 'extortionate prices' is not such a good start. Development costs of drugs that come to market AND those that fall by the wayside have to be recouped & stounding amounts go back into researching the next generation's drugs.
I do agree that considering the NHS pays some pretty big salaries to 'attract the best people', they appear to have very little expertise in anything other than booking a team of consultants who by & large are chosen because of their knowledge of the NHS (having previously worked for it...so no fresh ideas there largely)!

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[SkyblueBazza]

It''s estimated that 12-15% of NHS staff are foreign born. Without the contribution of these people the health service would be unable to function. The same goes for industries such as hospitality, an industry that I tried in my younger days and got out asap! We are reliant on foreign born workers and have been for decades now.

If someone wants to come to the country to live and work, they should be able to. That is going to continue until we invest in education across the board.

Or turn that around & invest more in the poorly paid jobs for the poorly educated instead of treating them like a lower form of life

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[SkyblueBazza]

This is the problem. If there were a concerted effort to invest in skills, wages etc (with the attendant rises in taxes that would follow) then there would be less of a need for overseas workers in all areas.

What we have atm is a horrendous effort that says get rid of the overseas workers, but don't put anything in place to deal with the loss of not just workers, but tax revenue that will be lost too.

So how does that help? Without a plan to compensate it looks just a little bit xenophobic, too.

But if we train everybody already here to a high level - they will not want to dig graves or clean up other people's mess...so we go back to square 1 & open the floodgates to all so businesses & public services can keep pay down at rock bottom levels

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[SkyblueBazza]

...and before them we had citizens of what are now former colonies coming over to the country.

I'm sure that they also experienced similar resentment to those coming over now. Are these people also to blame for the population growth?

It is the social & economic systems/structures/principles that are detested by me & probably many many others. It is THOSE that have led us to this situation.

The actual people are no different in the main to our indigenous population.

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[SkyblueBazza]

I may have missed it. Would appreciate seeing it again, especially if it is the case that these are EU and not rest of the world migrants.

Just search the link in the thread?

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[SkyblueBazza]

It's strange how some think 5% can bring down the entire NHS

Touche! Lol

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[SkyblueBazza]

Workers - residence rights

In order to get healthcare and to open a bank account in Italy, I had to prove I was working with a employment contract. As I stated before (but got accused of telling lies) I was visited by the local police at 7.30am one Sunday to check my documents. Sadly I also lost had a period of unemployment before this after an initial job offer turned out to be not what I thought and I would have been entitled to nothing and not able to seek help from the state.

You would be forcefully deported but would be required to leave. Sadly don't come from a privilidged background so was living hand to mouth until I found secure employment.

Maybe this is a quirk of the majority of Brits/Irish/Germans...a reasonably high level of respect for the rules. Not so for many other populations...two fingers to rules that don't suit them

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[Sick Boy]

No the majority of them get work, but for meagre reward & then the rest of us then have to pay them money via tax for benefits to give them a livable income.
Meanwhile the guys at the top keep shouting 'Bank' & shipping any profits raised out of the country.

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This suggest's that the majority aren't on 'meagre' pay.

Aarrgh just seen it's subscription based. It's from the FT and says EU migrants contribute 20bn£ more than benefits received.

 

[Sick Boy]

Just search the link in the thread?

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Have you seen the length of it?! If he knows where the study is online then what's the problem?

 

[Sick Boy]

Touche! Lol

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Take out 10% of doctors in this country and see what happens then.

 

[Ashdown]

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This suggest's that the majority aren't on 'meagre' pay.

Aarrgh just seen it's subscription based. It's from the FT and says EU migrants contribute 20bn£ more than benefits received.

What does it say about NON EU migrants ? Plus as said before other reports have highlighted huge costs on health, education, transport etc outweigh taxable contribution.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Take out 10% of doctors in this country and see what happens then.

Maybe conditions & salary will increase & the 10%+ that left because they were worsening to shit over the last 20yrs will look at returning...'if you want to attract the best people...'?

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[SkyblueBazza]

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This suggest's that the majority aren't on 'meagre' pay.

Aarrgh just seen it's subscription based. It's from the FT and says EU migrants contribute 20bn£ more than benefits received.

I refer you to Ashdown's response

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[Sick Boy]

I refer you to Ashdown's response

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Not their fault if the government doesn't invest taxpayer's money correctly. As I said before, a good place to have started would have been the money to prop up the government.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Not their fault if the government doesn't invest taxpayer's money correctly. As I said before, a good place to have started would have been the money to prop up the government.

I think they used the magic money tree that they reckon Mr Corbyn has found for that

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[Sick Boy]

More pigs’ ears for export after Brexit, says Michael Gove

I guess our Environment Secretary has finally unearthed an economic benefit.

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

I agree with jonathan pie.....

 

[skybluetony176]

More pigs’ ears for export after Brexit, says Michael Gove

I guess our Environment Secretary has finally unearthed an economic benefit.

Don't forget cheaper oranges because we'll be able to import oranges from outside the EU without EU tariffs. They'll be coming from African countries where they farm with water irrigated from raw untreated sewers containing human and industrial waste but we need not concern ourselves with that. Or the extra air miles polluting the world. Yay for brexit.

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

Don't forget cheaper oranges because we'll be able to import oranges from outside the EU without EU tariffs. They'll be coming from African countries where they farm with water irrigated from raw untreated sewers containing human and industrial waste but we need not concern ourselves with that. Or the extra air miles polluting the world. Yay for brexit.

The majority of orange imports are already from outside the EU ........some are even from that dirty dirty africa place you mention......I wonder if they also put dead horses in lasagne like those nice clean europeans?

 

[skybluetony176]

The majority of orange imports are already from outside the EU ........some are even from that dirty dirty africa place you mention......I wonder if they also put dead horses in lasagne like those nice clean europeans?

I was being serious. Irrigation in African farming is a huge issue. The continent has eaten horse meat for centuries, it's no different to eating cows to many of them. It's a cultural clash and poor labelling, not nearly in the same ball park as deliberately polluting farmland with irrigation. Let's just hope non of that African bush meat starts finding its way into the UK food chain post brexit if you're squeamish about horse. How do you like your zebra? Medium, rare or well done? Mind you, can't be any worse than the drugged up battery farmed beef that the USA are hoping to offload on us as part of a trade deal post brexit.

 

[Sick Boy]

The majority of orange imports are already from outside the EU ........some are even from that dirty dirty africa place you mention......I wonder if they also put dead horses in lasagne like those nice clean europeans?

Horse used to be a staple meat in Britain due to rationing in the 1940s, I believe. I was most likely eat some in Italy this weekend.

 

[Astute]

Has anyone seen the latest in tax avoidance? It is Amazon again. They pay tax to a little country called Luxembourg. The place that has many more registered companies than residents. And Amazon say they have done nothing wrong as they are not the only company to do so.

Can anyone guess who was running Luxembourg when Amazon and many other countries registered in Luxembourg to take advantage of the very low tax rates?

Then we have some on here saying that we should chase tax owed here. Tax owed by companies like Amazon.

 

[Sick Boy]

Has anyone seen the latest in tax avoidance? It is Amazon again. They pay tax to a little country called Luxembourg. The place that has many more registered companies than residents. And Amazon say they have done nothing wrong as they are not the only company to do so.

Can anyone guess who was running Luxembourg when Amazon and many other countries registered in Luxembourg to take advantage of the very low tax rates?

Then we have some on here saying that we should chase tax owed here. Tax owed by companies like Amazon.

We should chase tax avoidance across Europe, not sure many will argue with that.

Edit: is this tax avoidance or low tax rates? Isn't offering low rates of tax one of the Brexiteers' plans?

 

[Astute]

Horse used to be a staple meat in Britain due to rationing in the 1940s, I believe. I was most likely eat some in Italy this weekend.

I love a good horse steak. But there is a difference in wanting to eat one and not knowing you are eating one.

 

[Astute]

We should chase tax avoidance across Europe, not sure many will argue with that.

Edit: is this tax avoidance or low tax rates? Isn't offering low rates of tax one of the Brexiteers' plans?

Paying a low tax rate in a country you have registered for tax reasons and not in the countries where you should be paying tax is tax avoidance. Juncker thought it was OK when he was the Luxemburg PM. Does he still think it is OK?

So if he thinks it is OK why shouldn't the UK offer the same and get money back that would normally be paid here?

 

[Sick Boy]

I love a good horse steak. But there is a difference in wanting to eat one and not knowing you are eating one.

Can't argue with that!

 

[Sick Boy]

Paying a low tax rate in a country you have registered for tax reasons and not in the countries where you should be paying tax is tax avoidance. Juncker thought it was OK when he was the Luxemburg PM. Does he still think it is OK?

So if he thinks it is OK why shouldn't the UK offer the same and get money back that would normally be paid here?

I thought that Junker was viewed as out of touch and undesirable? Now he is someone to follow?

 

[Grendel]

Horse used to be a staple meat in Britain due to rationing in the 1940s, I believe. I was most likely eat some in Italy this weekend.

Yes I'm not surprised. Spain and Italy are the biggest consumers and (what a surprise) two of the biggest exponents of cruelty in the meat trade -- along of course with the Netherlands which was cited as one of the worst countries for cruelty

Well consider this when you are tucking in. A very large proportion of horse meat when recently examined was deemed unfit for human consumption. There is a huge trade in horses not bred for consumption.

What happens is this. Horse sold cheaply. Buyer is a trader. They ship said horses in appalling condition several thousand of miles to a slaughterhouse. Many die. The previous owner is often unaware and has a passport which prevents this. Of course alternate passports are used - not that they are checked.

So there is a very strong chance your horse meat was a pet is loaded with unsuitable toxins and is not even edible for a dog.

Enjoy.

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

I love a good horse steak. But there is a difference in wanting to eat one and not knowing you are eating one.

Exactly... any set of standards & regulations can be bypassed or manipulated......especially if they are unnecessarily over-complex & bureaucratic...something the EU specialise in.....

The fact the the horse-meat scandal was so widespread, affected a large number of differing streams within the supply chain & was on an International scale would suggest that we are just as likely to import Tonys dirty oranges today as we are when (or IF) we leave the EU.....

 

[Sick Boy]

Yes I'm not surprised. Spain and Italy are the biggest consumers and (what a surprise) two of the biggest exponents of cruelty in the meat trade -- along of course with the Netherlands which was cited as one of the worst countries for cruelty

Well consider this when you are tucking in. A very large proportion of horse meat when recently examined was deemed unfit for human consumption. There is a huge trade in horses not bred for consumption.

What happens is this. Horse sold cheaply. Buyer is a trader. They ship said horses in appalling condition several thousand of miles to a slaughterhouse. Many die. The previous owner is often unaware and has a passport which prevents this. Of course alternate passports are used - not that they are checked.

So there is a very strong chance your horse meat was a pet is loaded with unsuitable toxins and is not even edible for a dog.

Enjoy.

I fully aware of that, which is why I only eat it from an osteria where I know the owner and he ethically sources them.

 

[Astute]

We should chase tax avoidance across Europe, not sure many will argue with that.

Edit: is this tax avoidance or low tax rates? Isn't offering low rates of tax one of the Brexiteers' plans?

I thought that Junker was viewed as out of touch and undesirable? Now he is someone to follow?

Exactly.

So make your mind up.

Do you think it is tax avoidance or is it a legal way of paying less tax?

If it is legal then we should do what Juncker did for Luxembourg. Because you continually say we should chase tax owed here. But if you say it is done legally we can't chase it like you say we should. If so why can't we do the same as Luxembourg?

To me it is legal fraud. But there you go. Juncker helped it to happen in Luxembourg. Now he is in a position to protect it. So we can't chase unpaid tax like you say we should.

But the EU is now chasing it. And Juncker isn't a part of it. This could get interesting.

 

[skybluetony176]

I love a good horse steak. But there is a difference in wanting to eat one and not knowing you are eating one.

I tried one once but it gave me the trots.

Seriously though, you're absolutely right. I feel the same about halal and kosher meat. Always book the vegetarian option when flying emirates for that very reason. And go veggie when in a muslin country.