Astute
Well-Known Member
I have not blamed the EU for everything. And I don't have an agenda.
People here can't see a way out of the mess they are in. Now they are in too deep to leave.
The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (20 Viewers)
- Thread starter jimmyhillsfanclub
- Start date
People here can't see a way out of the mess they are in. Now they are in too deep to leave.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Oh yes I forgot the EU and Euro are fantastic and nobody has suffered. It is a level playing field for all. And anyone who dares to say differently is biased. Anyone who says differently is wrong. The EU has a pot of gazillions that nobody put in that they give away for nothing. They want nothing in return. Juncker makes no decisions. People we elected make the decisions. The majority of people in the UK are idiots for voting leave. We don't have millions of homeless people. And the appropriate 400k net coming here to live each year doesn't make a difference at all. We will all starve as fruit and veg won't get picked. We then won't be able to eat as we will all put massive tariffs on each other. We will crash and.burn just like we did when the leave vote was confirmed etc etc.Apparently he is 'neutral'.
Good. Then we are all in agreement.... ;-)
More like what chance with a divided Tory party handling the negotiations. The Irish Taosaich says there has not been enough progress on the Irish border question. I think it's a bit more complicated than your arch enemy saying there's no chance of 27 members agreeing to move on to the next stage. Nothing has happened to suggest that there is a deal in the offing. Juncker is just stating the bloody obvious. The EU has laid out it's position. The Irish, in particular, are concerned that the Brits haven't come up with a solution to the border problem that they have created. May, as usual, is just waffling on. BoJo is just building his "brand" for the time after May is forced to resign having been in charge at the most crucial negotiations in the last 70 odd years. I think for you Brexiteers, Jucker is the very least of your problems. It would help if you had a clear view of what Brexit actually means. But, that wasn't on the voting slip.
Meanwhile in the UK, which matters most of all to us here Mart, the new chief inspector of hospitals has stated that our health service is not fit for the 21st century due to.........the population growth !! That can also be said for social services, transport , schools and most other areas of our infrastructure. You don't live with it do you, you don't see it daily tucked away in Kiel
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Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Taken from the BBC:
"The former hospital medical director said the NHS had not modernised because of a historic lack of investment.
He said: "One of the things I regret is that 15 or 20 years ago, when we could see the change in the population, the NHS did not change its model of care.
"It should have done it then - there was a lot more money coming in but we didn't spend it all on the right things. We didn't spend it on transformation of the model of care."
The number of pensioners has increased by a third in the last 30 years and he said the system had not been able to deal with the increase in the number of elderly people in particular.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
you think they don't have population growth in Germany?!
Grendel
Well-Known Member
15 to 20 years ago - who was in power then? That's according to schmeee and his charts when there was loads of investment.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
I suppose that they are also lazing about and not working either. If successive governments fail to invest, then they deserve to be held to account.
The scapegoating of migrants will continue until the NHS is at breaking point and the Tories are able to completely privatise it. Instead of anger being directed at the culprits, who/their mates, will no doubt be doing quite nicely financially out of it, it will direct at ordinary and legal working people in this country.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Scapegoats?
Yes the NHS has been underfunded. But are you trying to say that without the population explosion we have had the NHS would be in exactly the same position?
You keep going on about it being the fault of the Tories. So what has Labour done when in power? It seems like you are a Labour supporter as to you they have done nothing wrong.....or you won't mention them as it isn't good.
Labour have been in power for 13 of the last 20 years. So why do you blame just the Tories?
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
I voted Labour at the last election but it was the first time since Blair's final term. Blair privatised parts of it and had a lot to answer for. The Tories have made the situation even worse though and some of the stories I hear about my local hospital in Brighton, make me very concerned. Even when I tore ligaments playing football the doctor I saw had to walk across the hospital to get a print out because their wasn't one in A&E. The NHS needs serious investment, the 1billion of taxpayers money to prop up the Tories would have been a good start.
The NHS is receiving record funding amounts every year but can't keep up with rising demand. There are no scapegoats just harsh reality that our infrastructure across the board cannot cope with the mass migration it has had to deal with and a expanding elderly population. The NHS also provides a vast range of treatments that it couldn't even imagine just 20 years ago. If you want to blame someone over financing too I suggest you look at drug companies who charge extortionate prices for their products plus all the jobsworth management/consultancy companies who stick their snouts in the trough but improve nothing.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
It''s estimated that 12-15% of NHS staff are foreign born. Without the contribution of these people the health service would be unable to function. The same goes for industries such as hospitality, an industry that I tried in my younger days and got out asap! We are reliant on foreign born workers and have been for decades now.
If someone wants to come to the country to live and work, they should be able to. That is going to continue until we invest in education across the board.
If someone wants to come to the country to live and work, they should be able to. That is going to continue until we invest in education across the board.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
This is the problem. If there were a concerted effort to invest in skills, wages etc (with the attendant rises in taxes that would follow) then there would be less of a need for overseas workers in all areas.
What we have atm is a horrendous effort that says get rid of the overseas workers, but don't put anything in place to deal with the loss of not just workers, but tax revenue that will be lost too.
So how does that help? Without a plan to compensate it looks just a little bit xenophobic, too.
No surprise there really if your figures are accurate, it equates with the total foreign born people here doesn't it. So one grew with the other !
Where is this horrendous effort coming from ? Brexit isn't about that ? Are you talking about a few thousand hard liner fascist types, many of who are on watch lists now ?
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
If Brexit isn't about that, why are we getting rid of freedom of movement?
Why do people even mention immigrants, as a problem with the EU if Brexit isn't about that?
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
...and before them we had citizens of what are now former colonies coming over to the country.
I'm sure that they also experienced similar resentment to those coming over now. Are these people also to blame for the population growth?
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
It seems that to most on this forum it is all about migrants. There was that one leave voters on the TV who said it was about getting rid of Muslims though.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
No privatisation of the NHS is on the horizon. Spend is at record levels. Lies again.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
Farage's campaigning seems to think it was all about the dirty immigrants.
And as kingofkings says (often) we all knew what we voted for when we said leave.
It's a sorry state of affairs when we're concerned about people making a net contribution to the economy, but are not prepared to do anything to fill that hole. It's a sorry situation when we demonise refugees, too.
You have just expanded health workers to all immigrants. Brexit on immigration is about controlling who comes in, controlling numbers and quality and security. There is not a chance that working EU people will be asked to leave or skilled EU people rejected.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
At least we are in safe hands, O' Brian Jeremy Hunt co-authored book calling for NHS to be replaced with private insurance
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Oh dear so the answers no then
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
EU law states that you have the right to move to another country for 3 months, after that you have to have a job to legally stay. If there are people not working, the government could have already told them to leave. It works in other EU countries.
Let's just hope that there is still water when we turn the taps on post-Brexit
Astute
Well-Known Member
Your estimate was shown to be wrong before. You said you was surprised when you found out it was only about 5%. Now you come out with a much bigger number again. Not surprised though.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
That was Grendel's claim of EU workers. Not sure you can speak after your Roma/Romanians fiasco.
For your reference - EU immigration and NHS staff
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
EU law states that you have the right to move to another country for 3 months, after that you have to have a job to legally stay. If there are people not working, the government could have already told them to leave. It works in other EU countries.
Let's just hope that there is still water when we turn the taps on post-Brexit
Typical of the right to look for a scapegoat rather than a solution.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Playing twisting of words again I see.
Who on here says anything good about Farage?
We already have millions of homeless. So why is it good that every 2 to 3 years another million come in when the present massive problem hasn't been solved? You agree that the NHS can't cope. So this problem also gets worse.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Roma/Romanian fiasco? I put a link up to Roma's from Romania that are massively into organised crime throughout the EU. I suppose you handedly didn't read the link although you went quiet as usual when shown to be wrong.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
No twisting, you're the one who repeats things parrot-fashion, and are again with your immigration whilst ignoring the fact that if they leave they'll leave a big hole.
You happy to pay more tax to plug the hole of net contribution when we get rid of everybody? You happy to pay more tax to train more people to plug the skills vacancies?
There's a highly disturbing trend to scapegoat around here, because nobody wants to face up to the solutions. First they came for the Greeks...
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
It was to save you from further embarrassment to be honest.
Astute
Well-Known Member
It doesn't work in other countries. I showed a link where they have failed to deport 78% of those where they went through the legal system and had all the correct paperwork. And the backlog is getting bigger all the time. And you say it works.EU law states that you have the right to move to another country for 3 months, after that you have to have a job to legally stay. If there are people not working, the government could have already told them to leave. It works in other EU countries.
Let's just hope that there is still water when we turn the taps on post-Brexit