The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (4 Viewers)

[Astute]

What else is it then? Remaining silent and getting fully behind remaining in EU? Why is it that it would be fine for Leave voters to have continued the fight, yet we are expected to fall into line and keep quiet?

We have voted out. End of.

We now need to pull together. We need to be as one to show Juncker that we want a good deal and the shit he is coming out with won't split us.

 

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[martcov]

So why is he still in charge of the EU?

They have known for many years what he has done. They know it is wrong.

It is just like FIFA. Keep someone in charge who is corrupt and he is safe. Then sweep it under the table.

He was elected by a vote of 26 to 2. So maybe ask the 26 governments who appoved him.

Who are "they"? If he is known to be corrupt or to have broken the law, there are several hundred MEPs you could approach to bring the subject up in the Eurpopean Parliament. Why don't you contact your local MEP, give him the evidence and ask him to find out what is going on? I am only an anomynous poster on the internet and don't have the knowledge or the evidence that you evidently have.

 

[Astute]

UKIP got millions of votes, but only 1 seat because the UK is so democratic. I in 8 Germans voted for a right wing party that includes fascists. It means that 1 in 8 Germans voted for a party which includes fascist, but it means little as 7 in 8 Germans didn't. It's democracy... get over it. Oh, and try pushing for democracy in the UK whilst you're on the subject. Replace the Lords with an elected senate, have the Monarch put up for a pro or anti monarchy vote every 10 years, introduce proportional representation so that we can see what the people really want by making all votes count, and give sovereignity back to parliament when wanting to make major decsisions. It may make the UK more inclusive and less polarised.

So what % of the UK didn't vote for Farage? A lot more than didn't vote for AfD in Germany. Yet you count the 1 in 8 Germans who voted for AfD in Germany as nothing.

 

[martcov]

The UK is totally inclusive !

is it polarised?

 

[Astute]

He was elected by a vote of 26 to 2. So maybe ask the 26 governments who appoved him.

Who are "they"? If he is known to be corrupt or to have broken the law, there are several hundred MEPs you could approach to bring the subject up in the Eurpopean Parliament. Why don't you contact your local MEP, give him the evidence and ask him to find out what is going on? I am only an anomynous poster on the internet and don't have the knowledge or the evidence that you evidently have.

Come on Mart. The evidence is there for you to see.

You continually go on about tax not being paid here. Juncker was in charge of Luxembourg when they signed up companies to pay negligible tax to the Luxembourg government instead of in the countries it should have been paying. There are many more companies in Luxembourg than there are residents. What more proof do you want?

Why defend him?

 

[Grendel]

UKIP got millions of votes, but only 1 seat because the UK is so democratic. I in 8 Germans voted for a right wing party that includes fascists. It means that 1 in 8 Germans voted for a party which includes fascist, but it means little as 7 in 8 Germans didn't. It's democracy... get over it. Oh, and try pushing for democracy in the UK whilst you're on the subject. Replace the Lords with an elected senate, have the Monarch put up for a pro or anti monarchy vote every 10 years, introduce proportional representation so that we can see what the people really want by making all votes count, and give sovereignity back to parliament when wanting to make major decsisions. It may make the UK more inclusive and less polarised.

So inclusive in Germany that their version of a 70's skinhead party attracted 1 vote for every two the chancellor received.

People clearly feel included in your utopian dream.

 

[Astute]

The EU was always going to protect itself as it is entitled to do so. What hasn't happened is that it has rolled over as some in the media predicted. While I am totally against it, it wouldn't be so bad if we had competent people in charge of the UK to negotiate on the country's behalf. To have the likes of Davis and Fox going into talks still thinking they could negotiate deals with individual countries is unforgivable.

Protect itself from what?

The UK now has 1 in 8 residents in the EU. We pay billions net into the EU each year. Yet a country the size of a city or smaller here has as much of a say as us.

Then Mart goes on about proportional representation is best.

 

[Kingokings204]

So inclusive in Germany that their version of a 70's skinhead party attracted 1 vote for every two the chancellor received.

People clearly feel included in your utopian dream.

Why bother? Merkel got a huge 33% so shut up please.

 

[martcov]

So what % of the UK didn't vote for Farage? A lot more than didn't vote for AfD in Germany. Yet you count the 1 in 8 Germans who voted for AfD in Germany as nothing.

2015: .UKIP came third in terms of votes with 12.6%, but only won one seat, with party leader Nigel Farage failing to win the seat of South Thanet.

In other words UKIP got exactly the same as AfD in 2015, and exactly the same amount didn't vote for Farage's party. What is your point? My point is that the UK is obviously not really democratic as it favours the 2 party system and restricts choice. Merkel's party got 33% - not Merkel. She was not a presidential candidate. The chancellor is elected by the parliament. By the way, sorry to mention Farage again, but in this case he was right to complain about the UK electoral sytem. And you think Juncker's appointment is undemocratic.....

 

[martcov]

Protect itself from what?

The UK now has 1 in 8 residents in the EU. We pay billions net into the EU each year. Yet a country the size of a city or smaller here has as much of a say as us.

Then Mart goes on about proportional representation is best.

How many MEP's does Estonia have?

 

[Astute]

I don't think we will ever rejoin. My opinion.

The EU is on the road to collapse.

This cash cow is leaving. The racist vote is getting bigger and infighting in the bigger countries has started. The one in charge should be put on fraud charges. Others in the EU seem to think so after the illegal tax payments are being looked into. Another prominent EU unvoted for whatever you want to call him in charge of human rights is now on fraud charges.

And this has all kicked off since we voted leave.

 

[martcov]

We have voted out. End of.

We now need to pull together. We need to be as one to show Juncker that we want a good deal and the shit he is coming out with won't split us.

Who the fxxk is Juncker? Is he negotiating? Does he have the last say? Is he an elected head of state? We need a government that is united and has a unified strategy. No one who has already been elected gives a toss if we are arguing all the time or not - they only appear at election time. What would have an effect, is if the UK government - and opposition as in war times - showed itself to be a united and competent negotiating partner. It isn't.

Putting the blame on to ourselves is a joke.

 

[Astute]

What is „unfinished business“? Ok, I will accept the result and you will never hear from me again, or I will continue fighting until the business of getting the UK out has dbeen finished? To achieve that he would need a second referendum. I think virtually everyone apart from yourself understood it as the latter.

Who gives a toss about Farage other than those who use his name to try and make a point?

 

[Astute]

Both sides are spinning it out to the last minute. Then there will be talks through the night until one side is so tired they just sign and go to bed.

So why do keep talking as though it will be Armageddon for us?

 

[Astute]

Yes, a lot more so than the UK.

Name them.

 

[martcov]

The EU is on the road to collapse.

This cash cow is leaving. The racist vote is getting bigger and infighting in the bigger countries has started. The one in charge should be put on fraud charges. Others in the EU seem to think so after the illegal tax payments are being looked into. Another prominent EU unvoted for whatever you want to call him in charge of human rights is now on fraud charges.

And this has all kicked off since we voted leave.

Don't keep saying that Juncker is in charge of the EU. He isn't. Don't even go down the road that politicians are involved in fraud. We have had years of scandals - e.g. expenses. The UK should be very quiet about accusing EU politicians of fraud. If Juncker is proven to have done something wrong then he will be in trouble - it's up to people like yourself to put pressure on your MEP to make sure that he is.

 

[martcov]

So why do keep talking as though it will be Armageddon for us?

Where have I said that? I say that they have a better hand, but no one knows what the end deal will be. Sailing off into the sunset is very optimistic though.

 

[martcov]

Yes IYO.

Open borders to the 500m people in the EU and expanding would have kept our population exploding when we can't house those already here. Not my opinion. It is the truth.

Well no the maths isn't true. You have included ourselves in that figure ( as Farage did in the US ). Most of the other 440 million don't want to come to the UK. That is the truth.

 

[martcov]

Oh really? Have to see that to believe that. Sorry but if that did happen it would of been main page news everywhere to make an idiot out of him. The fact it wasn't I strongly have my reservations.

It was main page news. Farage denies it and no one knows what he was actually doing in the Embassy, but he said it was about family matters and it was taken that he himself wasn't applying as he would have had to be resident in Germany for at least 3 years, but his child/ children could be eligible for German citizenship and that was the issue.

 

[martcov]

We aren't rejoining and never will imo. Junckers speech on an eu army and further integrating EU speech the other week put an end to that.

If you want an United States of Europe that's fine like Mart but the majority in this country don't after we were told by the remain camp it's for the status quo. Wrong. It was was further integration and become United States of Europe. One border one currency one army. One everything.

That was his vision. He won't be there long enough to see it should it ever happen

 

[martcov]

It does make me wonder what we are all going to talk/ debate about once brexit is out of the way. Football anyone.

By that time we will be premiere league...

 

[skybluetony176]

We aren't rejoining and never will imo. Junckers speech on an eu army and further integrating EU speech the other week put an end to that.

If you want an United States of Europe that's fine like Mart but the majority in this country don't after we were told by the remain camp it's for the status quo. Wrong. It was was further integration and become United States of Europe. One border one currency one army. One everything.

Junker can say it all he likes. The army will never get voted in. To many countries within the EU have already dismissed it. They’ll never be a United States of Europe. Too many countries within the EU don’t want it and would rather leave the EU than join a United States.

 

[martcov]

So inclusive in Germany that their version of a 70's skinhead party attracted 1 vote for every two the chancellor received.

People clearly feel included in your utopian dream.

The party received over 2 million protest votes according to exit polls, which if right, would mean under 5% are really right wing including Nazis. The Nazis were always there in the NPD and similar parties, but voted for the AfD knowing that they would get ovet the 5% hurdle. Over 85% were able to give their vote to the 5 other national parties and the Bavarian CSU. I don't see that as as polarised as the UK utopia.

 

[clint van damme]

Name anyone who likes or listens to Farage unless it is remoaners using him to try and make a point.

loads of people, he's popular, I'm sure he's got loads of followers on Twitter and he's got his own radio show though so plenty of people take notice of what he says as much as plenty of people can't tolerate him.
And if you couldn't use what politicians have said previously to try and make a point then most posts on this thread would be inadmissible!

 

[martcov]

Protect itself from what?

The UK now has 1 in 8 residents in the EU. We pay billions net into the EU each year. Yet a country the size of a city or smaller here has as much of a say as us.

Then Mart goes on about proportional representation is best.

UK has 73 MEPs. Estonia has 6 MEPs. What's your point?

 

[Astute]

That really is easy Grendel. Yes they do. No we don’t. Our negotiator is apparently lazy and thick as mince. The worst the Sun could think of for Barnier was that he is a Dandy. When you think that Farage said that the Belgian from the Parliament had the appearance of a lower grade bank clerk, then it seems the EU cannot win on appearance- either they are a Dandy or a lower grade bank clerk. Who knows how the EU people would describe the appearance of our foreign minister...

So would May look competent if she made negative comments all the time like these so called competent EU supposed negotiators? It would certainly give you a bigger stick to beat her with.

 

[Astute]

2015: .UKIP came third in terms of votes with 12.6%, but only won one seat, with party leader Nigel Farage failing to win the seat of South Thanet.

In other words UKIP got exactly the same as AfD in 2015, and exactly the same amount didn't vote for Farage's party. What is your point? My point is that the UK is obviously not really democratic as it favours the 2 party system and restricts choice. Merkel's party got 33% - not Merkel. She was not a presidential candidate. The chancellor is elected by the parliament. By the way, sorry to mention Farage again, but in this case he was right to complain about the UK electoral sytem. And you think Juncker's appointment is undemocratic.....

Are you saying that Junckers appointment was democratic?

So why is it you keep going on about Germany having the best voting system but never mention that the EU's system is the worse?

 

[Astute]

Not all he parties you list are UK national and therefore do not effect May‘s vote in the majority of constituencies. There are 3 main parties in the UK with 600000 tagging on to UKIP. In Germany there are 6 nationwide parties 1 powerful Bavarian party and a group of UKIP or Nazi parties on the fringe which together polled under 5 %.

So in Scotland May had a disaster as usual. But it makes no difference?

Yeah OK.

 

[Kingokings204]

Junker can say it all he likes. The army will never get voted in. To many countries within the EU have already dismissed it. They’ll never be a United States of Europe. Too many countries within the EU don’t want it and would rather leave the EU than join a United States.

This where we fundamentally disagree. It's full steam ahead for a United States of Europe. It's always been the plan. Bigger and more powerful all under one size fits all. One army, one currency etc. remember what the EU purpose originally was. If you take away member states national democracy and have a one size fits all approach as night follows day citizens will all have the same approach and common goals.

I don't think other member states want it either btw but I don't think they will get a choice.

 

[Astute]

We aren't rejoining and never will imo. Junckers speech on an eu army and further integrating EU speech the other week put an end to that.

If you want an United States of Europe that's fine like Mart but the majority in this country don't after we were told by the remain camp it's for the status quo. Wrong. It was was further integration and become United States of Europe. One border one currency one army. One everything.

I am British and I don't want to lose my nationality. I don't want to be ruled by someone who I can't vote for. Especially as they don't want what is best for us.

I couldn't bring myself to vote for leave. But now I have seen what they are really like I would be at the front of the queue to vote leave.

 

[martcov]

Come on Mart. The evidence is there for you to see.

You continually go on about tax not being paid here. Juncker was in charge of Luxembourg when they signed up companies to pay negligible tax to the Luxembourg government instead of in the countries it should have been paying. There are many more companies in Luxembourg than there are residents. What more proof do you want?

Why defend him?

I am not defending him. I said that if he has done wrong he should be punished. I am not a lawyer and I don't have evidence myself. I suggested you contact your MEP who could maybe find out more and put pressure on. That is not defending anyone.

 

[martcov]

I am British and I don't want to lose my nationality. I don't want to be ruled by someone who I can't vote for. Especially as they don't want what is best for us.

I couldn't bring myself to vote for leave. But now I have seen what they are really like I would be at the front of the queue to vote leave.

I am British and I don't want to lose my nationality, but I want to be British and an EU citizen. I am now forced to become a citizen of another country to remain an EU citizen because of Brexit. Brexit is a joke. Now I am seeing probably the most disunited and incompetent government of my lifetime in power in the UK trying to negotiate something that we shouldn't even have to be negotiating, and with no guarantee that we will be any better off in the end. But, some think that the chaos is all a cunning plan played out by our politicians with fantastic acting ability in order to lull the EU into a false sense of security, and then in the last minute of added time, to pull out the secret weapon and make the deal of the century... Personally I think the the government is clueless.

 

[clint van damme]

I am British and I don't want to lose my nationality, but I want to be British and an EU citizen. I am now forced to become a citizen of another country to remain an EU citizen because of Brexit. Brexit is a joke. Now I am seeing probably the most disunited and incompetent government of my lifetime in power in the UK trying to negotiate something that we shouldn't even have to be negotiating, and with no guarantee that we will be any better off in the end. But, some think that the chaos is all a cunning plan played out by our politicians with fantastic acting ability in order to lull the EU into a false sense of security, and then in the last minute of added time, to pull out the secret weapon and make the deal of the century... Personally I think the the government is clueless.

I'm sure Liam Fox will swing into action soon, he's a politician of such high renown that when he criticised the US over the tariffs imposed on Bombardier they went ahead and imposed more.
That's the clown that's supposed to be going round the world signing all these new and wonderful trade deals.

 

[martcov]

So would May look competent if she made negative comments all the time like these so called competent EU supposed negotiators? It would certainly give you a bigger stick to beat her with.

May said the ball is in your court. They said that is not a ball game. Who is more competent? Negative like when they say the UK is unprepared and unrealistic? We know they are not yet united in their stance and cameron was not prepared for Brexit. They have now wasted time with a cock up of an election and still don't have a united cabinet. Hardly likely that there is much positive to say about the UK stance.

 

[Grendel]

2015: .UKIP came third in terms of votes with 12.6%, but only won one seat, with party leader Nigel Farage failing to win the seat of South Thanet.

In other words UKIP got exactly the same as AfD in 2015, and exactly the same amount didn't vote for Farage's party. What is your point? My point is that the UK is obviously not really democratic as it favours the 2 party system and restricts choice. Merkel's party got 33% - not Merkel. She was not a presidential candidate. The chancellor is elected by the parliament. By the way, sorry to mention Farage again, but in this case he was right to complain about the UK electoral sytem. And you think Juncker's appointment is undemocratic.....

Ukip are a one issue party so to compare that one election to the clear rise in Nazi sympathisers in Germany is beyond stupid even for you.