The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (32 Viewers)

Sick Boy · Oct 20, 2017

Astute said:
In what way?

Take out Germany and it is in trouble. You and a few others shout from the rooftops everything that can go wrong for the UK. But what can go wrong for the EU is quietly ignored.

Germany does well oit of being in the Euro and EU. If they were not in the Euro their currency would be much stronger.

So name the other EU countries that are doing as well as us. Then see how much of a low base they are starting at. Then look at the effect on them if there is no deal.

Those who are involved in German manufacturing say they need a deal. Several other countries have said the same. Italy is one step away from the banks going tits up. Several EU countries need money to keep going. And nobody knows how much of this money will ever be paid back. That is why Barnier wants us to pay our share even after a leave date.

But lets keep it to negativity on the UK only.

What happened to the bravado around the UK dictating the terms to the UK due to our much stronger hand and bargaining position? All of those EU countries bending over and doing trade deals with us?

The truth is, is that was bollocks and a sizeable minority massively overstated the UK's bargaining power and it was swallowed as gospel. When you have negotiators going in thinking they can strike individual deals with each member state, it says a lot about how underprepared and clueless they are. These people should not be undertaking such serious negotiations.

Astute · Oct 20, 2017

martcov said:
The negativity is to do with Brexit. We still have different views on what it is and the government is under pressure- particularly from some of it’s own members who wish for no deal.

We are supposedly sailing into the sunset. You would think that at least we would know in which direction.

Of course there is negativity about Brexit. Nobody denies that.

The negativity comes from not getting closer to making any deals. We are not making any progress because the EU wants us to take on liabilities. But they won't say how much the liabilities will cost us. They want us to take on liabilities that have not even been agreed yet. Like bailout loans that will be needed in the future. They want us to pay before they happen. Then get money back if the loans are paid back. But what chance is there of the money coming back if they keep needing more money and there is no sign of their economies recovering?

Or how about our share of the future over 60 billion for EU pensions? Yet nobody from the UK will be gaining from it.

But yes it is all the fault of the UK for not wanting to sign a blank cheque.

clint van damme · Oct 20, 2017

Astute said:
Of course there is negativity about Brexit. Nobody denies that.

The negativity comes from not getting closer to making any deals. We are not making any progress because the EU wants us to take on liabilities. But they won't say how much the liabilities will cost us. They want us to take on liabilities that have not even been agreed yet. Like bailout loans that will be needed in the future. They want us to pay before they happen. Then get money back if the loans are paid back. But what chance is there of the money coming back if they keep needing more money and there is no sign of their economies recovering?

Or how about our share of the future over 60 billion for EU pensions? Yet nobody from the UK will be gaining from it.

But yes it is all the fault of the UK for not wanting to sign a blank cheque.

"Or how about our share of the future over 60 billion for EU pensions? Yet nobody from the UK will be gaining from it. "

I know someone from the UK who will be gaining from it

Astute · Oct 20, 2017

Sick Boy said:
What happened to the bravado around the UK dictating the terms to the UK due to our much stronger hand and bargaining position? All of those EU countries bending over and doing trade deals with us?

The truth is, is that was bollocks and a sizeable minority massively overstated the UK's bargaining power and it was swallowed as gospel. When you have negotiators going in thinking they can strike individual deals with each member state, it says a lot about how underprepared and clueless they are. These people should not be undertaking such serious negotiations.

Is this you defending the way that the EU are taking the negotiations?

Do you want us to sign a blank cheque?

Both sides are posturing. But lets blame just one.

We are not in a weak position. If we are then most EU countries are. Barnier wants to look strong. He wants to challenge for Junckers job. I have a feeling that Juncker put him forward because it won't go the way he wants. Too much is at stake. We won't roll over. We won't pay 9 years worth net of contributions for leaving. The UK would massively gain on tariffs paid. The EU won't want that. But they do want to screw us for every Euro they can.

Astute · Oct 20, 2017

clint van damme said:
"Or how about our share of the future over 60 billion for EU pensions? Yet nobody from the UK will be gaining from it. "

I know someone from the UK who will be gaining from it

Explain how if we are not in the EU but still paying for it?

clint van damme · Oct 20, 2017

Astute said:
Explain how if we are not in the EU but still paying for it?

he'll still be benefitting from the EU pension scheme, few others with their snout in the trough to be fair but when you've made your name as an anti EU campaigner smack s of hypocrisy to me.

Astute · Oct 20, 2017

clint van damme said:
he'll still be benefitting from the EU pension scheme, few others with their snout in the trough to be fair but when you've made your name as an anti EU campaigner smack s of hypocrisy to me.

We have already paid in many more billions to the pensions than all of those who have ever been involved in the EU from the UK will ever take out.

skybluetony176 · Oct 20, 2017

mrtrench said:
I don't have the figures to hand, however - let's use this as an approximation. Fuel spend per year = 100. At 5% that brings in 5 in VAT. All other goods and services = 1,000,000,000. At 20% that brings in 200,000,000. Offsetting the fuel VAT (which isn't really the point anyway - as heat is an essential that the UK government tries not to tax) would lead to a VAT rate of 19.99999%, not 15%.

(200,000,000 - 5) / (1,000,000,000) * 100

Tell you what, I'll buy your house at a discount of 5%. But to offset it, to make it fair, you can buy a second hand book from me at a discount of 5%. Deal?

That’s not even a good analogy. When you’re paying VAT whether that be at 5% on heating or 20% on other things it’s all coming out of one pot ie your my earnings and going to one pot ie the governments coffers. If they reduce the 20% rate to as you suggest 19% by your own calculations I’m in essence being refunded, with interest the 5% I’ve paid on heating. My total VAT contribution has been reduced, as it would for everyone. The government has the ability and option to reduce my VAT contribution should they wish today. We haven’t got to leave the EU on the assumption that they’ll abolish the 5% on heating (has anyone actually promised to do this by the way?) to do that. There’s more than one way to skin a cat. The fact that the government choose, that word again, choose to not skin the cat is down to them not the EU. They have 5% leeway to address everyone’s total VAT contribution should they wish.

mrtrench · Oct 20, 2017

skybluetony176 said:
That’s not even a good analogy. When you’re paying VAT whether that be at 5% on heating or 20% on other things it’s all coming out of one pot ie your my earnings and going to one pot ie the governments coffers. If they reduce the 20% rate to as you suggest 19% by your own calculations I’m in essence being refunded, with interest the 5% I’ve paid on heating. My total VAT contribution has been reduced, as it would for everyone. The government has the ability and option to reduce my VAT contribution should they wish today. We haven’t got to leave the EU on the assumption that they’ll abolish the 5% on heating (has anyone actually promised to do this by the way?) to do that. There’s more than one way to skin a cat. The fact that the government choose, that word again, choose to not skin the cat is down to them not the EU. They have 5% leeway to address everyone’s total VAT contribution should they wish.

OK Tony, I give up.

Astute · Oct 20, 2017

mrtrench said:
OK Tony, I give up.

It is best.

All this thread is about is having a go at those who can see what is going on and also defending the EU.

skybluetony176 · Oct 20, 2017

mrtrench said:
OK Tony, I give up.

Just been googling and the only party I can see ever committing to abolishing 5% VAT on energy when we’ve left the EU was UKIP when under the leadership of Paul Nuttall, can’t even find a Ferage quote promising it. Can’t see a whisper of it from anyone else other than Gove in the referendum campaign and even then he was talking in the broader sense of VAT claiming that what we pay is controlled by the EU which is only a half truth as the EU only sets the minimum rates not the actual rate and as we’ve already established that is 5% above the minimum for goods and services. So yet again the government has the means to reduce everyone’s total VAT contribution should they wish but choose not to. And that doesn’t look like changing when we leave the EU. In actual fact from what I have been reading general consensus seems to be that although the government has pledged to maintain the current VAT rates in their last election manifesto (again a good indicator that the 5% on energy isn’t going anywhere post brexit) the range of goods and products that 20% applies to looks set to increase. So in actual fact by the time this term has passed we’ll be out the EU and individual VAT contribution looks set to be higher than it was at the beginning of the term when we were still in the EU.

Still, let’s blame the EU for it rather than look at our own government who have the ability to reduce everyone’s VAT contributions should they wish before or after we’ve left the EU.

Astute · Oct 20, 2017

skybluetony176 said:
Just been googling and the only party I can see ever committing to abolishing 5% VAT on energy when we’ve left the EU was UKIP when under the leadership of Paul Nuttall, can’t even find a Ferage quote promising it. Can’t see a whisper of it from anyone else other than Gove in the referendum campaign and even then he was talking in the broader sense of VAT claiming that what we pay is controlled by the EU which is only a half truth as the EU only sets the minimum rates not the actual rate and as we’ve already established that is 5% above the minimum for goods and services. So yet again the government has the means to reduce everyone’s total VAT contribution should they wish but choose not to. And that doesn’t look like changing when we leave the EU. In actual fact from what I have been reading general consensus seems to be that although the government has pledged to maintain the current VAT rates in their last election manifesto (again a good indicator that the 5% on energy isn’t going anywhere post brexit) the range of goods and products that 20% applies to looks set to increase. So in actual fact by the time this term has passed we’ll be out the EU and individual VAT contribution looks set to be higher than it was at the beginning of the term when we were still in the EU.

Still, let’s blame the EU for it rather than look at our own government who have the ability to reduce everyone’s VAT contributions should they wish before or after we’ve left the EU.

Yes we know that you say the EU is innocent of all charges.

So when did the VAT go onto household energy? Oh yes. When the EU made it happen. How can it be abolished until we leave? It can't. When will we be leaving? Nobody has a clue.

Your general consensus is always bad for the UK and good for the EU. We could all find things biased in the way we want it to look all day long. But many of us are trying to work out what is going to happen instead of quoting someone that has already lied, been proved wrong in the past or is as biased as yourself. You need to stop crying about the result and work out what might happen next and what is the best that can happen. All you have done is join the Farage bashing team when you haven't got a reply to something. Yet no fucker on here likes Farage that I know of.

All you are doing is ruining what could be a decent debate.

Yes it is shit that we are leaving. I could go on every day like some saying how shit it is. But where will that get us?

Grendel · Oct 20, 2017

Astute said:
Yes we know that you say the EU is innocent of all charges.

So when did the VAT go onto household energy? Oh yes. When the EU made it happen. How can it be abolished until we leave? It can't. When will we be leaving? Nobody has a clue.

Your general consensus is always bad for the UK and good for the EU. We could all find things biased in the way we want it to look all day long. But many of us are trying to work out what is going to happen instead of quoting someone that has already lied, been proved wrong in the past or is as biased as yourself. You need to stop crying about the result and work out what might happen next and what is the best that can happen. All you have done is join the Farage bashing team when you haven't got a reply to something. Yet no fucker on here likes Farage that I know of.

All you are doing is ruining what could be a decent debate.

Yes it is shit that we are leaving. I could go on every day like some saying how shit it is. But where will that get us?

The only person whose ever admitted to voting ukip on here is Tony

Ashdown · Oct 20, 2017

clint van damme said:
"Or how about our share of the future over 60 billion for EU pensions? Yet nobody from the UK will be gaining from it. "

I know someone from the UK who will be gaining from it

But this really sums up how ludicrous it all is, how the fuck do they get to a figure of £60 Bn in pension provision for these overpaid muppets who rarely attend and fall asleep when they do. It's a pathetic gravy train for those that get on it.

skybluetony176 · Oct 20, 2017

Astute said:
Yes we know that you say the EU is innocent of all charges.

So when did the VAT go onto household energy? Oh yes. When the EU made it happen. How can it be abolished until we leave? It can't. When will we be leaving? Nobody has a clue.

Your general consensus is always bad for the UK and good for the EU. We could all find things biased in the way we want it to look all day long. But many of us are trying to work out what is going to happen instead of quoting someone that has already lied, been proved wrong in the past or is as biased as yourself. You need to stop crying about the result and work out what might happen next and what is the best that can happen. All you have done is join the Farage bashing team when you haven't got a reply to something. Yet no fucker on here likes Farage that I know of.

All you are doing is ruining what could be a decent debate.

Yes it is shit that we are leaving. I could go on every day like some saying how shit it is. But where will that get us?

I have never said that the EU is innocent of all charges or anything remotely like that. My stance is and always has been that the EU needs reform.

I don’t think that the EU set minimum VAT levels until the EU VAT directive of 2006 although I’m happy to be corrected on that if that isn’t the case.

The history of VAT on energy actually starts long before this. It was actually zero rated right until 1993 when the then conservative government imposed 8% on it, later they then wanted to increase it to 17.5% but this was defeated in the commons. It didn’t actually come down to 5% until labour got into power and Gordon Brown reduced it in 1997 while VAT on goods and services remained at 17.5% reducing everyone’s VAT contribution overnight. A power any government has to a minimum level. They choose not to reduce everyone’s VAT contribution the same as Gordon Brown chose to and it was an election pledge of the then new labour government. Who other than the aforementioned previous UKIP leader has promised to abolish the 5% after brexit? The conservatives certainly haven’t. In fact they’ve pledged to hold it.

My general consensus isn’t bad for the UK good for the EU. I’ve repeatedly said to you on this thread bad for the EU worse for the UK. I don’t see any winners in brexit with us being the biggest losers.

I haven’t really said anything about Ferage on this thread other than a passing comment. He’s an irrelevance really in brexit now.

Kingokings204 · Oct 20, 2017

What's Jeremy corbyn doing in Brussels? This is turning into a farce now.

clint van damme · Oct 20, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
What's Jeremy corbyn doing in Brussels? This is turning into a farce now.

in turned into a farce months ago, this is just adding to the slapstick.

SIR ERNIE · Oct 20, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
What's Jeremy corbyn doing in Brussels? This is turning into a farce now.

Well he's certainly there to undermine the UK government; beyond that given the fact that Labour are even more divided than the Conservatives over Brexit, he probably hasn't got a clue what he's doing there.

SIR ERNIE · Oct 20, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
What's Jeremy corbyn doing in Brussels? This is turning into a farce now.

If he’s true to form, he’ll be telling Barnier that if he becomes PM he’ll hand the EU £200bn for free and the rich can pay.

chiefdave · Oct 20, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
What's Jeremy corbyn doing in Brussels?

Giving a speech at the Party of European Socialists annual summit meeting.

Sick Boy · Oct 20, 2017

Astute said:
It is best.

All this thread is about is having a go at those who can see what is going on and also defending the EU.

Hahaha yeah because there is no one defending Brexit, is there.

Sick Boy · Oct 20, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
What's Jeremy corbyn doing in Brussels? This is turning into a farce now.

He has been holding talks with the EU to ensure that there will be consistency if he takes over between now and March 2019.

Astute · Oct 20, 2017

Sick Boy said:
Hahaha yeah because there is no one defending Brexit, is there.

So who is defending Brexit?

There are people saying what they would like to see and also whay should happen. That isn't defending Brexit. Crying about not getting the result you wanted is a different matter. Always having a go at those who say what should happen or what is best to happen won't change the vote. Neither will constantly making excuses for the EU.

Astute · Oct 20, 2017

Sick Boy said:
He has been holding talks with the EU to ensure that there will be consistency if he takes over between now and March 2019.

We all know that isn't going to happen.

oakey · Oct 20, 2017

Astute said:
So who is defending Brexit?

There are people saying what they would like to see and also whay should happen. That isn't defending Brexit. Crying about not getting the result you wanted is a different matter. Always having a go at those who say what should happen or what is best to happen won't change the vote. Neither will constantly making excuses for the EU.

I find it amazing that so many people think you can't change the outcome. It seems madness to me that you have to stick to a decision come what may. It is a strange view of democracy that a vote made on one day can never be reconsidered and reversed. How does that even make sense? Have you always proceeded when it becomes clear that a dead end or a cliff edge lies ahead?
As an aside I have come to the opinion that it is this peculiarly old fashioned British sense of fair play. You won, we lost etc so we shake hands and leave the field. What a bizarre view of decision making, winners and losers. Winner takes all.
I hate referenda because they never settle the argument unless the result is overwhelmingly one sided.
Imagine if Scotland had voted narrowly for independence and then after a period of negotiating SCexit public opinion there shifted to the view that it would all be too costly and they had more to lose than gain. Are we saying they would have to proceed and couldn't change their minds? Madness. When you realise you have made a wrong turn or the road ahead is too treacherous you turn around.
I look forward to the day when one of the major parties stand for a general election on the promise of reversing Brexit and reforming the EU to suit our interests.
I accept genuine arguments why we should leave the EU. I do not accept that we should leave now, whatever the final deal is, because a democratic vote can never be reversed.

Astute · Oct 20, 2017

oakey said:
I find it amazing that so many people think you can't change the outcome. It seems madness to me that you have to stick to a decision come what may. It is a strange view of democracy that a vote made on one day can never be reconsidered and reversed. How does that even make sense? Have you always proceeded when it becomes clear that a dead end or a cliff edge lies ahead?
As an aside I have come to the opinion that it is this peculiarly old fashioned British sense of fair play. You won, we lost etc so we shake hands and leave the field. What a bizarre view of decision making, winners and losers. Winner takes all.
I hate referenda because they never settle the argument unless the result is overwhelmingly one sided.
Imagine if Scotland had voted narrowly for independence and then after a period of negotiating SCexit public opinion there shifted to the view that it would all be too costly and they had more to lose than gain. Are we saying they would have to proceed and couldn't change their minds? Madness. When you realise you have made a wrong turn or the road ahead is too treacherous you turn around.
I look forward to the day when one of the major parties stand for a general election on the promise of reversing Brexit and reforming the EU to suit our interests.
I accept genuine arguments why we should leave the EU. I do not accept that we should leave now, whatever the final deal is, because a democratic vote can never be reversed.

Where would it end up if every vote was questioned meaning a re-vote?

So if we had another vote and it was for remain would that be the end of it? It would be 1-1. Would 2-1 be good enough or should they just go for best of 5?

If best of 5 was 3-2 should we go best of 7 or just continue voting until someone got a 2 vote lead?

Sick Boy · Oct 20, 2017

Astute said:
We all know that isn't going to happen.

Do you? Most on the political threads claimed we were heading for a Tory landslide. The Tories are in disarray and Labour government led by Corbyn is inevitable over the coming years.

Sick Boy · Oct 20, 2017

Astute said:
So who is defending Brexit?

There are people saying what they would like to see and also whay should happen. That isn't defending Brexit. Crying about not getting the result you wanted is a different matter. Always having a go at those who say what should happen or what is best to happen won't change the vote. Neither will constantly making excuses for the EU.

Hahahahaha you're on form.

martcov · Oct 20, 2017

Astute said:
Where would it end up if every vote was questioned meaning a re-vote?

So if we had another vote and it was for remain would that be the end of it? It would be 1-1. Would 2-1 be good enough or should they just go for best of 5?

If best of 5 was 3-2 should we go best of 7 or just continue voting until someone got a 2 vote lead?

Every election is followed by a revote a few years later. If you made a mistake, you can always vote for someone else next time. That’s democracy. To say that you can never vote on a subject ever again - even when 48% were of another opinion and it now seems as if the country is heading for a cliff - is pure mob rule. What about when we get to the cliff edge? Maybe more people want to stay than leave at that point? Why can’t they change their mind as in every other vote we have ever had? To justify the mob rule we are constantly being told that everything from VAT to a lack of housebuilding, or the M4 being full of cars, is due to being in the EU. Bollocks, we are not accepting mob rule. At least I’m not. Reform of the EU is long overdue. A major rethink based on what we see happening is necessary. Not enough people take the European Parliament seriously enough. To solve the EU problems, the MEPs who are elected representatives should have more, not less powers. European tax rates should be more coordinated not less. Underbidding each other on taxes should not be allowed - as Astute quite rightly points out about Luxembourg.

What is the score on general elections now? 20 Tory, 8 wigs, 7 lab? Tories are winning by best of 35. Shall we let them stay forever?

martcov · Oct 20, 2017

Sick Boy said:
Hahahahaha you're on form.

No, he is just being neutral as always. ;-)

Astute · Oct 20, 2017

Sick Boy said:
Do you? Most on the political threads claimed we were heading for a Tory landslide. The Tories are in disarray and Labour government led by Corbyn is inevitable over the coming years.

I said at the time we wasn't headin for a Tory majority. And I won money on it. It was never going to be a landslide.

Say what you want about Corbyn. But he has no charisma. You get more excitement out of having a fart in a bath. Labour are nowhere near winning under him. They need a leadership change to have a chance. And why would there be another general election so soon? All parties are split over Brexit.

Astute · Oct 20, 2017

martcov said:
Every election is followed by a revote a few years later. If you made a mistake, you can always vote for someone else next time. That’s democracy. To say that you can never vote on a subject ever again - even when 48% were of another opinion and it now seems as if the country is heading for a cliff - is pure mob rule. What about when we get to the cliff edge? Maybe more people want to stay than leave at that point? Why can’t they change their mind as in every other vote we have ever had? To justify the mob rule we are constantly being told that everything from VAT to a lack of housebuilding, or the M4 being full of cars, is due to being in the EU. Bollocks, we are not accepting mob rule. At least I’m not. Reform of the EU is long overdue. A major rethink based on what we see happening is necessary. Not enough people take the European Parliament seriously enough. To solve the EU problems, the MEPs who are elected representatives should have more, not less powers. European tax rates should be more coordinated not less. Underbidding each other on taxes should not be allowed - as Astute quite rightly points out about Luxembourg.

What is the score on general elections now? 20 Tory, 8 wigs, 7 lab? Tories are winning by best of 35. Shall we let them stay forever?

So funny.

Just shows how far you will go.

martcov · Oct 20, 2017

Astute said:
So funny.

Just shows how far you will go.

That’s your answer? You don’t seem to get it. People are allowed to change their mind should they want to. At least in democratic countries.

skybluetony176 · Oct 20, 2017

Astute said:
Where would it end up if every vote was questioned meaning a re-vote?

So if we had another vote and it was for remain would that be the end of it? It would be 1-1. Would 2-1 be good enough or should they just go for best of 5?

If best of 5 was 3-2 should we go best of 7 or just continue voting until someone got a 2 vote lead?

We voted to join. Maybe we shouldn’t have had a referendum on leaving and cancel Brexit using that train of thought.

martcov · Oct 20, 2017

Astute said:
I said at the time we wasn't headin for a Tory majority. And I won money on it. It was never going to be a landslide.

Say what you want about Corbyn. But he has no charisma. You get more excitement out of having a fart in a bath. Labour are nowhere near winning under him. They need a leadership change to have a chance. And why would there be another general election so soon? All parties are split over Brexit.

I don’t agree about him having no charisma. He gets rousing cheers everywhere nowadays. If anyone hasn’t got charisma, it’s May.

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (32 Viewers)

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