The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (35 Viewers)

[CCFCSteve]

You are assuming that the flow of migrants continues at the same rate or more from the EU and forget that around half are non EU at the moment. It would appear that non EU migrants do come to the U.K.. EU net migration is falling. Many EU workers work in unskilled jobs. Who would fill those jobs? There is no guarantee that we have enough U.K. workers willing to pick fruit, work in hotels or in some conveyor belt type jobs.

When I was over to Bournemouth recently there were no Brits working in the Hotel that I was staying in ( or at least in jobs with contact to guests ). Tourism is booming in the U.K. because of the devalued „Brexit“ pound. We need to pull in this revenue and to do that we need enough staff. Blocking non skilled staff also creates problems. There was a huge jump in the number of Bulgarians and Romanians recently. That won’t keep happening indefinitely. Apart from anything else the pound has lost value making jobs in the U.K. a bit less attractive.

You presume I have an issue with migration, which I don't.

My point wasnt that migration numbers will continue at those level, it's a 'what if' question ? My point being if they did we have limited means of control, which is crazy.

We might need high levels of migration (skilled or unskilled) in future, especially with an angling population, we might have the capacity and the availability of services to cope with high levels of migration, but we happens if we don't ?

Unfortunately that's the issue with a the EU/ a lot policitians/those who voted remain, they assume that people who raise a concern or voted to leave don't like or see the benefits of migration, rather than addressing their concerns. If the EU had made one relatively minor (in my eyes) concession in relation to allowing at least some element of control, I believe remain would have won reasonably comfortably.

I have a greater issue with the EU which relates to my views on democracy and spent time in the lead up to the referendum reading up on past votes and treaties and didn't like what I saw. Neither do I like the bullying tactics post result. I had a sick/concerned feeling for days (probably weeks) post referendum, worrying about the impact of the result, however, their behaviour since, whilst not totally removing that worry has only re-enforced one of my main reasons for voting the way I did.

 

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[CCFCSteve]

Ps to this day I still don't know if it was the right decision. Having said that we also wouldn't know if voting remain would have been the right decision. Would potentially further EU integration in future work for the Uk (bearing in mind we have a very different relationship already, not being part of the euro or schengan agreement)...who knows !

 

[martcov]

Ps to this day I still don't know if it was the right decision. Having said that we also wouldn't know if voting remain would have been the right decision. Would potentially further EU integration in future work for the Uk (bearing in mind we have a very different relationship already, not being part of the euro or schengan agreement)...who knows !

It literally is who knows. At the moment we could still veto things. E.g. an EU Army. We weren’t bullied into Schengen or the Euro. We even bullied the EU into giving us the Thatcher rebate. We also have 73 MEPs in the European Parliament. As regards democracy and transparency... it was the U.K. who wanted the negotiations to be secret. The EU wanted transparency. It was the EU who had a vote on the Brief for the negotiations.

 

[Sick Boy]

Ps to this day I still don't know if it was the right decision. Having said that we also wouldn't know if voting remain would have been the right decision. Would potentially further EU integration in future work for the Uk (bearing in mind we have a very different relationship already, not being part of the euro or schengan agreement)...who knows !

I thought that Cameron had negotiated that we wouldn't have been part of any future further integration?

EU deal: Did PM get what he wanted?

"It is recognised that the United Kingdom, in the light of the specific situation it has under the Treaties, is not committed to further political integration into the European Union.

The substance of this will be incorporated into the Treaties at the time of their next revision in accordance with the relevant provisions of the Treaties and the respective constitutional requirements of the Member States, so as to make it clear that the references to ever closer union do not apply to the United Kingdom."

"Mr Cameron won guarantees that countries outside the eurozone, such as Britain, will not be required to fund euro bailouts and will be reimbursed for central EU funds used to prop up the euro."

 

[CCFCSteve]

Democracy as in previous treaties etc. It's worth a read whatever your views on Brexit

The current EU negotiation tactics, as in treating us like an enemy. I appreciate they have got a job to do in terms of getting a good deal for the other EU nations, however, so far it really does smack of wanting to punish us and most probably also, save Germany and France as the other major net contributors as much money as possible - there's only really a handful of significant net contributors so take UK out of the equation and you can see why they aren't best pleased !

Having someone like Junker as president of the EC says it all really !

 

[Sick Boy]

Democracy as in previous treaties etc. It's worth a read whatever your views on Brexit

The current EU negotiation tactics, as in treating us like an enemy. I appreciate they have got a job to do in terms of getting a good deal for the other EU nations, however, so far it really does smack of wanting to punish us and most probably also, save Germany and France as the other major net contributors as much money as possible - there's only really a handful of significant net contributors so take UK out of the equation and you can see why they aren't best pleased !

Having someone like Junker as president of the EC says it all really !

Our own chancellor stupidly referred to the EU as 'the enemy'.

P.s. welcome to the 'debate'/never ending story!

 

[CCFCSteve]

I thought that Cameron had negotiated that we wouldn't have been part of any future further integration?

EU deal: Did PM get what he wanted?

I meant I wouldn't know how that would work for us. The rest of EU becoming more integrated in future, already all being part of the Schengen Agreement and Euro, with us on the outside.

It's always been a bit strange. Might have been fine but as I say who knows.

 

[CCFCSteve]

Our own chancellor stupidly referred to the EU as 'the enemy'.

P.s. welcome to the 'debate'/never ending story!

I know, what a d*ck ! However I would say that that's probably in response to how they have behaved towards us to date. Actions speak lounder than words they say !

Ps I don't mind a good debate as long as people respect and listen to each other's views. Having said that I've got a programme to watch (non political )

 

[martcov]

Democracy as in previous treaties etc. It's worth a read whatever your views on Brexit

The current EU negotiation tactics, as in treating us like an enemy. I appreciate they have got a job to do in terms of getting a good deal for the other EU nations, however, so far it really does smack of wanting to punish us and most probably also, save Germany and France as the other major net contributors as much money as possible - there's only really a handful of significant net contributors so take UK out of the equation and you can see why they aren't best pleased !

Having someone like Junker as president of the EC says it all really !

He was chosen by 26 out of 28 countries. He is the head civil servant. We don’t know who our head civil servants are. And, yes, he appears to be a dick. Germany has estimated ( the DSI ), that they will have to pay 10bn € a year more. They hope to reduce the next EU budget to save some money. 10bn more is not the end of the world for Germany as they are in surplus at the moment. Merkel has said she accepts Brexit, but Britain cannot have a better deal than before. She has never used the word enemy and says she wants a good relationship.

 

[martcov]

He was chosen by 26 out of 28 countries. He is the head civil servant. We don’t know who our head civil servants are. And, yes, he appears to be a dick. Germany has estimated ( the DSI ), that they will have to pay 10bn € a year more. They hope to reduce the next EU budget to save some money. 10bn more is not the end of the world for Germany as they are in surplus at the moment. Merkel has said she accepts Brexit, but Britain cannot have a better deal than before. She has never used the word enemy and says she wants a good relationship.

Correction: Germany calculates it’s share of the 10 bn shortfall as 3bn. They say UK was paying 10bn a year subs.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Fair point. I believe that the swing towards Labour was down to voters being uncomfortable with May's approach to Brexit and her thirst for power around that time. It has been said that remain voters went for Labour based on their softer approach to Brexit.

If you went by that logic however, as both Cameron and Miliband were pro EU, why did we need a referendum as the overwhelming majority voted for it?

It's a silly argument to suggest a general election reflects a single issue... otherwise Scotland would be independent by now.

 

[clint van damme]

this story, which is backed up by the ONS

Brexit fears are holding back manufacturing investment, study finds

is the exact opposite of what Liam Fox said would happen. He said that increased profits driven by an upturn in exports due to the weakened pound would see companies in the manufacturing sector reinvest it in their companies.
Then there is the Washington debacle he was responsible for where he turned for trade talks with negotiating team light on both numbers and experience.
It should be of serious concern to everyone that a senior member of the Brexit team can get things so wrong.
I'd love to know what this clown is a doctor of.

It's OK people saying be positive about Brexit, but how can you be with people like this involved at a senior level.

 

[Kingokings204]

this story, which is backed up by the ONS

Brexit fears are holding back manufacturing investment, study finds

is the exact opposite of what Liam Fox said would happen. He said that increased profits driven by an upturn in exports due to the weakened pound would see companies in the manufacturing sector reinvest it in their companies.
Then there is the Washington debacle he was responsible for where he turned for trade talks with negotiating team light on both numbers and experience.
It should be of serious concern to everyone that a senior member of the Brexit team can get things so wrong.
I'd love to know what this clown is a doctor of.

It's OK people saying be positive about Brexit, but how can you be with people like this involved at a senior level.

Hmmm not sure I can take this seriously when I click the link and it asks me for a £5 donation via paypal.

It seems like big businesses are using brexit as to why they should get a good deal in the upcoming budget. Hardly big shock stuff is it?

 

[SIR ERNIE]

Hmmm not sure I can take this seriously when I click the link and it asks me for a £5 donation via paypal.

It seems like big businesses are using brexit as to why they should get a good deal in the upcoming budget. Hardly big shock stuff is it?

The Guardian. Enough said.

 

[CCFCSteve]

He was chosen by 26 out of 28 countries. He is the head civil servant. We don’t know who our head civil servants are. And, yes, he appears to be a dick. Germany has estimated ( the DSI ), that they will have to pay 10bn € a year more. They hope to reduce the next EU budget to save some money. 10bn more is not the end of the world for Germany as they are in surplus at the moment. Merkel has said she accepts Brexit, but Britain cannot have a better deal than before. She has never used the word enemy and says she wants a good relationship.

Euro10bn as a one off maybe isn't a huge amount for Germany, but every year...possibly forever...is ! I'm not saying Merkel or anyone has used the work "enemy" (unlike Hammond...idiot !), however, their actions to date say a lot more than Hammonds (ill judged) words ! Whilst our unorganised/unclear approach (not helped by having a tiny working majority) is embarrassing, the EUs approach, to their supposed strongest future ally, is at best greedy, at worst vindictive/bullying. Whether that's with Merkels agreement or not, that's the way it appears. I can assure you that the UK public, whilst probably extremely frustrated by our governments (bordering on shambolic) dealings to date, wont forget that.

This shouldn't be about allowing "a better deal than before". It should be about a willingness to forge a new relationship that works for both sides. A strong UK is good for the EU, a strong EU is good for the UK, so it should be about damage limitation. The message given to the rest of the EU to minimise the risk of others walking (there will be others at some stage in the future I'm pretty sure of it) should be that the UK is an extremely important trading partner, we (the EU) have a net deficiency to the Uk so its beneficial for us to agree a free trade agreement and lets maintain a strong relationship as you never know when we might need their assistance on security, army or otherwise. They should also be reminded that we have been huge net contributor over many years and this should be taken into account.

 

[clint van damme]

The Guardian. Enough said.

it comes from the ONS, or aren't we believing them to day, is it only when they back up the tories they're a credible source.

Hmmm not sure I can take this seriously when I click the link and it asks me for a £5 donation via paypal.

It seems like big businesses are using brexit as to why they should get a good deal in the upcoming budget. Hardly big shock stuff is it?

you think fox knows what he's doing then, good for you!

 

[Houdi]

I find it amazing that so many people think you can't change the outcome. It seems madness to me that you have to stick to a decision come what may. It is a strange view of democracy that a vote made on one day can never be reconsidered and reversed. How does that even make sense? Have you always proceeded when it becomes clear that a dead end or a cliff edge lies ahead?
As an aside I have come to the opinion that it is this peculiarly old fashioned British sense of fair play. You won, we lost etc so we shake hands and leave the field. What a bizarre view of decision making, winners and losers. Winner takes all.
I hate referenda because they never settle the argument unless the result is overwhelmingly one sided.
Imagine if Scotland had voted narrowly for independence and then after a period of negotiating SCexit public opinion there shifted to the view that it would all be too costly and they had more to lose than gain. Are we saying they would have to proceed and couldn't change their minds? Madness. When you realise you have made a wrong turn or the road ahead is too treacherous you turn around.
I look forward to the day when one of the major parties stand for a general election on the promise of reversing Brexit and reforming the EU to suit our interests.
I accept genuine arguments why we should leave the EU. I do not accept that we should leave now, whatever the final deal is, because a democratic vote can never be reversed.

There was a party standing at the last general election effectively campaigning to reverse the brexit vote, they were called the liberal democrats, and they were routed. Even the Labour Party campaigned on accepting the brexit vote, the Article 50 vote was voted through with a huge majority. Plus of course Corbyn has voted against every EU treaty for over 30 years, as have many people from the far left .Benn ,Peter Shore and Dennis Skinner were all anti EU.
Plus of course the original referendum was about our membership of the EEC, nothing to do with the EU of parliaments, currencies Presidents all of which nobody ever voted for. Over the last few days elections in both Austria and the Czech Republic have seen big advances for centre right euro sceptic parties with the left being routed.
It is beyond belief that people still believe the EU can or will reform,it is no more capable of reform than islam is.As President Gorbachev once said,that he was astonished that we were intent on creating another Soviet Union, of a remote undemocratic centralised system of government, imposing its will on reluctant nations. The Soviet Union collapsed eventually as will the European Union,the sooner the better.
If the EU did a trade deal with the USA, can you imagine the EU accepting the US Supreme Court , allowing US citizens living in Europe for them to uphold their 2nd Amendment rights to bear arms here in Europe not a chance. Or any US administration allowing the ECJ to have greater legal powers than their own Supreme Court on EU citizens living in the US. And yet the EU wants still the right to interfere in laws in our country with the ECJ being a higher court than our own Supreme Court,we should tell them to get stuffed.

 

[Sick Boy]

this story, which is backed up by the ONS

Brexit fears are holding back manufacturing investment, study finds

is the exact opposite of what Liam Fox said would happen. He said that increased profits driven by an upturn in exports due to the weakened pound would see companies in the manufacturing sector reinvest it in their companies.
Then there is the Washington debacle he was responsible for where he turned for trade talks with negotiating team light on both numbers and experience.
It should be of serious concern to everyone that a senior member of the Brexit team can get things so wrong.
I'd love to know what this clown is a doctor of.

It's OK people saying be positive about Brexit, but how can you be with people like this involved at a senior level.

I saw an article a while back claiming that rather than reinvesting, companies had simply put their prices up instead. Who'd have thought it, eh?!!

 

[clint van damme]

I saw an article a while back claiming that rather than reinvesting, companies had simply put their prices up instead. Who'd have thought it, eh?!!

no. it's just the Guardian making things up, (and the ONS, and the EEF!)

 

[Sick Boy]

Now the EU is being compared to Islam?! I suppose it is the bloc of promoting peace.

 

[Sick Boy]

no. it's just the Guardian making things up, (and the ONS, and the EEF!)

Oh yes, I had heard about this massive conspiracy.

 

[Kingokings204]

it comes from the ONS, or aren't we believing them to day, is it only when they back up the tories they're a credible source.



you think fox knows what he's doing then, good for you!

I don't dislike Liam Fox. Watched him on peston on Sunday yesterday and he seemed very knowledgeable. He stated this isn't really a negotiation. Both sides already have everything the same. They is nothing to negotiate other than the politics to it. In terms of trade and business there isn't nothing to negotiate. That's right. It's politics stopping a good deal.

As I said do you think I can take the same link seriously as long as I pay £5 donation via paypal? It's embarrassing

 

[Kingokings204]

no. it's just the Guardian making things up, (and the ONS, and the EEF!)

You accept though it's a nice way to try a get a good deal from the upcoming budget which I'm guessing businesses wouldn't turn down? That's what the article was really stating. Brexit is a disaster so we need lots of tax breaks and lots of incentives to invest. Simple enough.

 

[clint van damme]

You accept though it's a nice way to try a get a good deal from the upcoming budget which I'm guessing businesses wouldn't turn down? That's what the article was really stating. Brexit is a disaster so we need lots of tax breaks and lots of incentives to invest. Simple enough.

It was reported well before the budget and is backed up by the ONS, a source you'll find has been used by all sides on here.
You think fox is OK, like I say, good for you, just those remoaners giving him a hard time eh?
And I'm not sure what link to Paypal you're on about, it doesn't come up for me.

 

[Kingokings204]

It was reported well before the budget and is backed up by the ONS, a source you'll find has been used by all sides on here.
You think fox is OK, like I say, good for you, just those remoaners giving him a hard time eh?
And I'm not sure what link to Paypal you're on about, it doesn't come up for me.

It's a donation for the gaurdian newspaper. There is a link that's either pops up when you click onto the gaurdian or it's at the bottom of the article. Looks very desperate to me.

I don't mind Fox as I say. Spoke with passion and common sense. I'm not some big fan of his. I'm not discounting the article altogether but again seems highly fabricated to me from a newspaper in trouble financially (clearly) and another yet massively anti brexit story. Funnily no one has posted a positive article from the gaurdian on brexit. I guess there aren't any whatsoever.

 

[clint van damme]

It's a donation for the gaurdian newspaper. There is a link that's either pops up when you click onto the gaurdian or it's at the bottom of the article. Looks very desperate to me.

I don't mind Fox as I say. Spoke with passion and common sense. I'm not some big fan of his. I'm not discounting the article altogether but again seems highly fabricated to me from a newspaper in trouble financially (clearly) and another yet massively anti brexit story. Funnily no one has posted a positive article from the gaurdian on brexit. I guess there aren't any whatsoever.

yeah, no other new site trys to get subscriptions or donations do they?!!
He also got warned about his approach to trade talks with the US by that other bunch of commies - the British Chamber of Commerce!
But keep burying your head in the sand.
And the Guardian is a remain paper, why would you expect them to print a positive story about Brexit? Do other newspapers print positive stories that don't fit their agenda? Of course they fucking don't!
I look forward to your post criticising the Daily Mail for not printing a positive Corbyn story!

 

[martcov]

There was a party standing at the last general election effectively campaigning to reverse the brexit vote, they were called the liberal democrats, and they were routed. Even the Labour Party campaigned on accepting the brexit vote, the Article 50 vote was voted through with a huge majority. Plus of course Corbyn has voted against every EU treaty for over 30 years, as have many people from the far left .Benn ,Peter Shore and Dennis Skinner were all anti EU.
Plus of course the original referendum was about our membership of the EEC, nothing to do with the EU of parliaments, currencies Presidents all of which nobody ever voted for. Over the last few days elections in both Austria and the Czech Republic have seen big advances for centre right euro sceptic parties with the left being routed.
It is beyond belief that people still believe the EU can or will reform,it is no more capable of reform than islam is.As President Gorbachev once said,that he was astonished that we were intent on creating another Soviet Union, of a remote undemocratic centralised system of government, imposing its will on reluctant nations. The Soviet Union collapsed eventually as will the European Union,the sooner the better.
If the EU did a trade deal with the USA, can you imagine the EU accepting the US Supreme Court , allowing US citizens living in Europe for them to uphold their 2nd Amendment rights to bear arms here in Europe not a chance. Or any US administration allowing the ECJ to have greater legal powers than their own Supreme Court on EU citizens living in the US. And yet the EU wants still the right to interfere in laws in our country with the ECJ being a higher court than our own Supreme Court,we should tell them to get stuffed.

It is beyond belief that you are counting the rise in the extreme right as justification for your views. It is beyond belief that you are comparing the EU with the Soviet Union. It is beyond belief that you think there wouldn’t be an American court involved in trade disputes. It is beyond belief that you even use the second amendment in a discussion about the EU. It is not beyond belief that you read the gutter press or have listened to the likes of Farage or Gove or Johnson.

 

[Kingokings204]

yeah, no other new site trys to get subscriptions or donations do they?!!
He also got warned about his approach to trade talks with the US by that other bunch of commies - the British Chamber of Commerce!
But keep burying your head in the sand.
And the Guardian is a remain paper, why would you expect them to print a positive story about Brexit? Do other newspapers print positive stories that don't fit their agenda? Of course they fucking don't!
I look forward to your post criticising the Daily Mail for not printing a positive Corbyn story!

So why for goodness sake do you moan and the rest of you moan when the daily mail prints the stuff it does. It targets their audience. You just said it. Goodness gracious. The penny has finally dropped.

Correct me if I'm wrong I don't see another paper begging for donations via PayPal. Maybe they don't need to perhaps?

Ok you don't like Liam fox, I think we've got that now.

 

[martcov]

It's a donation for the gaurdian newspaper. There is a link that's either pops up when you click onto the gaurdian or it's at the bottom of the article. Looks very desperate to me.

I don't mind Fox as I say. Spoke with passion and common sense. I'm not some big fan of his. I'm not discounting the article altogether but again seems highly fabricated to me from a newspaper in trouble financially (clearly) and another yet massively anti brexit story. Funnily no one has posted a positive article from the gaurdian on brexit. I guess there aren't any whatsoever.

Passion maybe. Common sense no. You just mean he says what you think and believe that to be common sense. Most people, including politicians and “experts” think that Brexit is one big cockup up until now. Do you pay for the Mail, Express or Sun? If you do, does that confirm that they are in financial trouble?

 

[Ashdown]

yeah, no other new site trys to get subscriptions or donations do they?!!
He also got warned about his approach to trade talks with the US by that other bunch of commies - the British Chamber of Commerce!
But keep burying your head in the sand.
And the Guardian is a remain paper, why would you expect them to print a positive story about Brexit? Do other newspapers print positive stories that don't fit their agenda? Of course they fucking don't!
I look forward to your post criticising the Daily Mail for not printing a positive Corbyn story!

That's why none of them are worth reading, I want impartiality or they can fuck off !

 

[Kingokings204]

Passion maybe. Common sense no. You just mean he says what you think and believe that to be common sense. Most people, including politicians and “experts” think that Brexit is one big cockup up until now. Do you pay for the Mail, Express or Sun? If you do, does that confirm that they are in financial trouble?

I don't pay for any paper. No. I specifically said donations also. Literally begging for a donation seems a bit desperate to me. Just my view.

Did you watch his interview yesterday on peston on Sunday? He came across very well and passionately but he is universally hated by remainers as he voted leave so he is an idiot and a cretin. Simple enough I guess.

 

[SIR ERNIE]

Did you watch his interview yesterday on peston on Sunday? He came across very well and passionately but he is universally hated by remainers as he voted leave so he is an idiot and a cretin. Simple enough I guess.

The radical left love to ridicule and demonise anyone to the right of them, especially they're from a Public School background . It’s the manifestation of their politics of hate and envy. You see it and hear it every day in the sneering rhetoric of Thornberry, Abbott and McDonnell. Hard line, class warrior hypocrites.


The Brexit result is even more interesting in that respect because to all intents and purposes it was one single posh bloke Nigel Farage, who managed to mobilise both working class and middle class Britain to do what he’d been doing for years; stick two fingers up to the EU. He crossed the divide of traditional party politics and it’s scared the life out of our politicians. That was a massively impressive achievement and having watched him on TV this morning, he still talks more sense on the subject than anyone. But his background and success mean that he too must be a target so he is demonised by limp wristed europhiles who cannot argue against him so must resort to smears and scare stories.

 

[clint van damme]

So why for goodness sake do you moan and the rest of you moan when the daily mail prints the stuff it does. It targets their audience. You just said it. Goodness gracious. The penny has finally dropped.

Correct me if I'm wrong I don't see another paper begging for donations via PayPal. Maybe they don't need to perhaps?

Ok you don't like Liam fox, I think we've got that now.

The thread is about brexit. I'm hilighting the incompetence of one of our main players. I didn't realise you were such a fan. I can drop it if it upsets you!

 

[clint van damme]

The radical left love to ridicule and demonise anyone to the right of them, especially they're from a Public School background . It’s the manifestation of their politics of hate and envy. You see it and hear it every day in the sneering rhetoric of Thornberry, Abbott and McDonnell. Hard line, class warrior hypocrites.


The Brexit result is even more interesting in that respect because to all intents and purposes it was one single posh bloke Nigel Farage, who managed to mobilise both working class and middle class Britain to do what he’d been doing for years; stick two fingers up to the EU. He crossed the divide of traditional party politics and it’s scared the life out of our politicians. That was a massively impressive achievement and having watched him on TV this morning, he still talks more sense on the subject than anyone. But his background and success mean that he too must be a target so he is demonised by limp wristed europhiles who cannot argue against him so must resort to smears and scare stories.

Just ignore the facts and criticisms from industry bodies then, sweep. sweep!
And why do you keep mentioning McDonnell and co, they are an irrelevance to this process?
Limp wristed Europhiles? HAHA, he was criticised by the Chamber of Commerce for his approach to negotiations with the US, ignore that though eh?

 

[Kingokings204]

The thread is about brexit. I'm hilighting the incompetence of one of our main players. I didn't realise you were such a fan. I can drop it if it upsets you!

You didn't read my previous post. I said I am no super fan of his. I don't get why he is the target all of a sudden? What's Fox done so wrong that upsets you?

I take it we are having a break from farage and Johnson today?