The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (135 Viewers)

[SkyblueBazza]

• The current population of the United Kingdom is 66,469,574 as of Tuesday, March 27, 2018, based on the latest United Nations estimates.
• The United Kingdom population is equivalent to 0.87% of the total world population.
• The U.K. ranks number 21 in the list of countries (and dependencies) by population.
• The population density in the United Kingdom is 275 per Km2 (713 people per mi2).
• The total land area is 241,930 Km2 (93,410 sq. miles)
• 81.2 % of the population is urban (54,072,374 people in 2018)
• The median age in the United Kingdom is 40.3 years.

Really? The UK wants to become a global player again. When I was born in 1955 we were the 9th biggest ( population ) country in the world with 1,84% of the world population. We were also a military power and had the remnants of an empire.

The reality is that we have reduced our armed forces to the bone, are now 21st biggest country and have only 0,87% of the world population. The rest of the world has become richer and many others militarily stronger.

Our population is ageing rapidly.

Yet, you refuse to see the writing on the wall. We are not the country we once were. e.g. "For Britain" ( "leave means leave" type party ) wants us to rebuild our armed forces to be able to unilaterally defend ourselves - as they believe we once were able to. How? How much would that cost? Who would work in manufacturing and services if our young are in the military? We have a high percentage of non producers or soon to be non producing pensioners. Who would pay for this? Madness.

This is what we are up against from some leavers. It is nostalgia and doesn't reflect our place in the world. The EU gave us a supply of motivated workers and the chance to work within a European Defence Force. To pool our military and human resources. Take these things away and we shall soon be in trouble.

I doubt whether we are of crucial importance to the EU. Obviously it would be to our and the EU's advantage for the UK to be there, but life goes on.

Struth - that's widened the debate considerably.
Sticking to the central point...official predictions a couple of years ago were that the UK population would be around 70m by 2050 if I remember rightly. That is too small to be ignored as a market for business given our relative wealth. Likewise, we need to sell stuff. The world as a whole has a much greater buyer potential for us to limit ourselves in selling stuff to just the EU nations.

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[SkyblueBazza]

I said their job is to make the best deal for the EU. Whatever that entails. The UK is not their main priority.

Exactly, but the UK is important to UK citizens living in the UK. The majority decided we were best off longer term out of it. We are leaving.


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[dutchman]

Exactly, but the UK is important to UK citizens living in the UK. The majority decided we were best off longer term out of it.

I think it was more a case of the majority deciding they were no better off in it than out of it, a view which the minority seem totally unable to comprehend.

 

[Astute]

I found an article saying 40%. Still a scandal. Funny that the Mail isn’t on to that though....

It is 34% of the budget that goes directly to farmers and landowners. But on top of this they also get money out of the redevelopment fund which is another 37% of the EU budget. IIRC it ends up being 52% of the budget. And here it is straight out of the horses mouth

Funding opportunities under the Common Agricultural Policy - Agriculture and rural development - European Commission

 

[Astute]

Wasn't a key leave arguement that the EU was protecting it's own citizens and exploiting Africans? We are all more than aware how much the likes of Gove, Patel and Rees Mogg want to help those worse off.

Was it?

So which obscure person came out with this that made people vote leave?

 

[Astute]

I found something to do with the money for landowners. Scandal. No doubt it will stop when we leave...

„This racket is perhaps the strongest of all arguments for leaving the European Union, but the Brexiters’ silence resounds. Among the 13 Conservative MPs who signed an open letter last week undertaking not to cut subsidies for owning or leasing land if Britain leaves the union was Iain Duncan Smith. His wife’s family’s estate, on which he lives, receives £150,000 a year of your money, handed to them by the EU.“

So, business as usual for the leavers....?

So who has defended any of this? I have mentioned it several times before. And also now as this is a reply to how the money is wasted. The landed gentry getting millions for not producing on land they don't want to produce on. The same people who are desperate to stay in the EU. But when they speak you get fully behind them.

And best of all the money they get is counted as coming back to our country so is counted as refund money. So people like yourself say that the bus money is wrong as we git nearly half of it back. No. Most of it goes to the rich Tories. It doesn't go back to the tax payer. And you fully defend this. And my allegiance to the Labour party gets questioned for pointing this out. Because it doesn't go with what a few Tories say and it being a goid reason for us to leave.

 

[Astute]

One of three things to be dealt with first before Brexit trade negotiations. EU Citizens rights, the bill and the Irish Question- Irish being EU citizens. 2 out of 3 ain’t bad.

You keep quoting this knowing it is the EU that are holding up the agreement on the matter. They have set the agenda and EU citizens rights are not at the top of their list. Their top priority is to get as much money out of us as they can. Then you make out that their top priority is citizens rights when they still haven't reached where they want to discuss them.

 

[martcov]

Struth - that's widened the debate considerably.
Sticking to the central point...official predictions a couple of years ago were that the UK population would be around 70m by 2050 if I remember rightly. That is too small to be ignored as a market for business given our relative wealth. Likewise, we need to sell stuff. The world as a whole has a much greater buyer potential for us to limit ourselves in selling stuff to just the EU nations.

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We don’t just sell to EU nations. But being part of 500 Million we have more bargaining power than 65 million.

 

[martcov]

So who has defended any of this? I have mentioned it several times before. And also now as this is a reply to how the money is wasted. The landed gentry getting millions for not producing on land they don't want to produce on. The same people who are desperate to stay in the EU. But when they speak you get fully behind them.

And best of all the money they get is counted as coming back to our country so is counted as refund money. So people like yourself say that the bus money is wrong as we git nearly half of it back. No. Most of it goes to the rich Tories. It doesn't go back to the tax payer. And you fully defend this. And my allegiance to the Labour party gets questioned for pointing this out. Because it doesn't go with what a few Tories say and it being a goid reason for us to leave.

The word „scandal“ would suggest that I am not defending it, although the subject is probably not as simple as it looks.

 

[martcov]

You keep quoting this knowing it is the EU that are holding up the agreement on the matter. They have set the agenda and EU citizens rights are not at the top of their list. Their top priority is to get as much money out of us as they can. Then you make out that their top priority is citizens rights when they still haven't reached where they want to discuss them.

I thought we had agreed a system regarding the divorce bill. The two open questions are to do with citizens rights. May has agreed on those of migrants for the transition period and the EU is waiting for a workable border proposition on Ireland to come from the UK. The EU has already accepted the fall back idea of a sea border with the island of Ireland.

So it is the UK who we are waiting for.

 

[Astute]

We don’t just sell to EU nations. But being part of 500 Million we have more bargaining power than 65 million.

We sell a lot more to the rest of the world than we do to the EU. Once out of the EU we will be able to make trade deals with those we already sell to outside the EU as they won't be able to stop us from doing so anymore.

 

[martcov]

It is 34% of the budget that goes directly to farmers and landowners. But on top of this they also get money out of the redevelopment fund which is another 37% of the EU budget. IIRC it ends up being 52% of the budget. And here it is straight out of the horses mouth

Funding opportunities under the Common Agricultural Policy - Agriculture and rural development - European Commission

Yes, well it is distributed by the member states. They decide who gets what according to the rules.

What would happen if you scrapped it completely?

Not all the money is given for the one purpose of paying landed gentry.

I suspect there are good reasons for regulating food production in some way. E.g. in the 80s we had wine lakes and butter mountains.

I also suspect there is massive political giggery pokery going on to make sure certain countries or individuals come out favourably when it comes to receiving money.

Your point is correct, a part of the system is unfair and probably corrupt, but it would be fair to say that whatever happens after we leave, there will still be support for land owners such as IDS, the Queen and the editor of the DM.

Hope the system gets reformed.

 

[Astute]

The word „scandal“ would suggest that I am not defending it, although the subject is probably not as simple as it looks.

But when I have said the same before it has been defended by others. It is an absolute joke. And on top of that billions more gets lost to fraud like in Italy. But nothing ever seems to get done about it.

Then we have the headlines that say this major amount of billions each year goes into developing the worse off countries. But look behind the headlines and you see the truth.

 

[martcov]

We sell a lot more to the rest of the world than we do to the EU. Once out of the EU we will be able to make trade deals with those we already sell to outside the EU as they won't be able to stop us from doing so anymore.

No doubt. The question being how long will it take to adjust our production and to negotiate trade deals to replace those with EU. How favourable will these be in comparison to what we have now? We could sell more already, but we don’t because we don’t have a large manufacturing sector, or the products we could sell in enough quantity for people that want to buy.

What about patents and naming protections for our products which were dealt with by the EU?

What about staffing availablility to increase production? Especially bearing in mind my generation heading for retirement, ceasing being productive and requiring care at some time.

 

[Astute]

I thought we had agreed a system regarding the divorce bill. The two open questions are to do with citizens rights. May has agreed on those of migrants for the transition period and the EU is waiting for a workable border proposition on Ireland to come from the UK. The EU has already accepted the fall back idea of a sea border with the island of Ireland.

So it is the UK who we are waiting for.

So why haven't they agreed or disagreed on our proposal to secure the rights of all citizens?

Oh yeah. They said that the first 3 must be agreed and signed before they will move it forward. If they really cared about the citizens as you say they do it would have been top of the list.

 

[Astute]

I also suspect there is massive political giggery pokery going on to make sure certain countries or individuals come out favourably when it comes to receiving money.

The French farmers come out best by far. And if they try to change anything they bring the country to a standstill.

 

[Sick Boy]

Was it?

So which obscure person came out with this that made people vote leave?

Protectionism has been mentioned on here numerous times and by Leave MPs.

 

[Astute]

No doubt. The question being how long will it take to adjust our production and to negotiate trade deals to replace those with EU. How favourable will these be in comparison to what we have now? We could sell more already, but we don’t because we don’t have a large manufacturing sector, or the products we could sell in enough quantity for people that want to buy.

What about patents and naming protections for our products which were dealt with by the EU?

What about staffing availablility to increase production? Especially bearing in mind my generation heading for retirement, ceasing being productive and requiring care at some time.

Patents are not defended by the EU. They are a worldwide thing that gets ignored in certain countries and nothing is done about it. China being the worse offender.

 

[martcov]

But when I have said the same before it has been defended by others. It is an absolute joke. And on top of that billions more gets lost to fraud like in Italy. But nothing ever seems to get done about it.

Then we have the headlines that say this major amount of billions each year goes into developing the worse off countries. But look behind the headlines and you see the truth.

I agree, don’t just read the headlines ( e.g. „the sky blues new home“ by Les Reid ).

My experience of occasionally reading the Mail or Express ( and others ), is that the headline is usually rabid to make you really angry - on subjects like this. The next 2 or 3 sentences confirm what you read in the headline. The truth, or a part of it usually, is buried somewhere near the end of the article in the smaller print bit, but it doesn’t matter because you have already made your mind up by then.

The figures you quote here are total figures. Not just the amounts given to billionaire landlords. So your general point is correct, but there is reasoning behind the scheme and it probably is necessary.. to a point. The word scandal is appropriate as there are plenty of people milking it... as far as we have been informed.

 

[Astute]

Protectionism has been mentioned on here numerous times and by Leave MPs.

And people like myself have mentioned countless times about fraud and how much money goes to the landed gentry. They are the main ones that want us to remain. They are mainly Tories. Yet when I mention something against Labour some people try to rip my comments to bits.

 

[martcov]

Patents are not defended by the EU. They are a worldwide thing that gets ignored in certain countries and nothing is done about it. China being the worse offender.

There is an EU patent office in Munich which looks after EU patents.

 

[Astute]

I agree, don’t just read the headlines ( e.g. „the sky blues new home“ by Les Reid ).

My experience of occasionally reading the Mail or Express ( and others ), is that the headline is usually rabid to make you really angry - on subjects like this. The next 2 or 3 sentences confirm what you read in the headline. The truth, or a part of it usually, is buried somewhere near the end of the article in the smaller print bit, but it doesn’t matter because you have already made your mind up by then.

The figures you quote here are total figures. Not just the amounts given to billionaire landlords. So your general point is correct, but there is reasoning behind the scheme and it probably is necessary.. to a point. The word scandal is appropriate as there are plenty of people milking it... as far as we have been informed.

The biggest scandal is this is where just over half the budget goes. Then there is more lost to fraud every year. And on top of this we have to donate money to other countries. And a few of these can afford nuclear weapons but not to look after their own people.

 

[Astute]

There is an EU patent office in Munich which looks after EU patents.

And are toothless against countries like China.

 

[Sick Boy]

And people like myself have mentioned countless times about fraud and how much money goes to the landed gentry. They are the main ones that want us to remain. They are mainly Tories. Yet when I mention something against Labour some people try to rip my comments to bits.

When I first mentioned fraud in the EU aka the mafia in Italy you said I was talking nonsense of most of the country's problems were down to the EU hahaha.

 

[martcov]

And people like myself have mentioned countless times about fraud and how much money goes to the landed gentry. They are the main ones that want us to remain. They are mainly Tories. Yet when I mention something against Labour some people try to rip my comments to bits.

People including the editor of the DM , Dyson and IDS are not remainers and want the subsidies they receive to continue post Brexit. Don’t single remainers out as being the only receivers of farming subsidies. And don’t believe the situation will end after Brexit. It may change in some ways, but there will have to be some farming subsidies and the same people will be first in the queue.

 

[martcov]

And are toothless against countries like China.

Great. 500 million people in a trade bloc are toothless, but you want to take on China with 65 million.

 

[Astute]

When I first mentioned fraud in the EU aka the mafia in Italy you said I was talking nonsense of most of the country's problems were down to the EU hahaha.

Bollocks. You agreed with most of what I said. It was you that defended the EU as usual though.

 

[Astute]

People including the editor of the DM , Dyson and IDS are not remainers and want the subsidies they receive to continue post Brexit. Don’t single remainers out as being the only receivers of farming subsidies. And don’t believe the situation will end after Brexit. It may change in some ways, but there will have to be some farming subsidies and the same people will be first in the queue.

And because you can name just a few out of the vast majority you must be right?

 

[Sick Boy]

Bollocks. You agreed with most of what I said. It was you that defended the EU as usual though.

Hahaha the only one talking bollocks here is you. You actually agreed with what I said after I elaborated and liked my posts about it at the time.

 

[Astute]

Great. 500 million people in a trade bloc are toothless, but you want to take on China with 65 million.

I like the way you try to twist things.

So where did I say we would succeed where the EU has failed?

 

[Astute]

Hahaha the only one talking bollocks here is you. You actually agreed with what I said after I elaborated and liked my posts about it at the time.

Shows I am not biased with the truth.

I agreed with you on the mafia bit. And you agreed with me about the EU continuing to put money into where the frauds were being committed without doing anything about it.

So your point is?

 

[Sick Boy]

Shows I am not biased with the truth.

I agreed with you on the mafia bit. And you agreed with me about the EU continuing to put money into where the frauds were being committed without doing anything about it.

So your point is?

Actually you ignored it the first time and then regurgitated what I said later on. Do you expect the EU to take on the Mafia now? Withholding money would affect those people who already live in communities blighted by corruption and fear.

 

[Astute]

Actually you ignored it the first time and then regurgitated what I said later on. Do you expect the EU to take on the Mafia now? Withholding money would affect those people who already live in communities blighted by corruption and fear.

So are you saying that the EU is best keep putting money into road building schemes where most of it ends up in the hands of the mafia as it will help people living in those areas?

 

[Sick Boy]

So are you saying that the EU is best keep putting money into road building schemes where most of it ends up in the hands of the mafia as it will help people living in those areas?

Not all of the money disappears and it goes to a variety of different schemes, most are not mafia contracts either.

 

[martcov]

Patents are not defended by the EU. They are a worldwide thing that gets ignored in certain countries and nothing is done about it. China being
the worse offender.

The EU is a receiving office according to international patent law.