The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (308 Viewers)

[skybluetony176]

Spain?

Going on Sunday for two weeks. Woohoo!

 

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[Brighton Sky Blue]

Spain?

Got sunburnt there last year. Preferred Austria this year, even if my waistline didn't.

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

Have tried staying off this thread for a while because it was going round in circles but to go back to the very start, the reason I voted remain wasn't because of any confidence I had in the institutions of the EU rather I was absolutely convinced the tories would make a raging arse of things. I seen nothing to change my opinion but that isn't an endorsement of the EU.

I also only occasionally dip into this thread now too for the same reasons.......

...and to go back to the start, without wishing to repeat myself, I voted out as I believed the status quo, post 2008, was not acceptable....the system was/is broken & it was aggressively & blatantly all about benefiting the banks & big business at the cost of the average citizen & the environment......

I agree the tory pricks are making a total hash of it......its just a crying shame the opposition are also a bunch of incompetent twats more concerned about re-defining what is and isn't an acceptable level of antisemitism rather than taking the tories to task......

....and around we go....

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Didn’t Ferage also quote a number for apparent Romanians queuing up to come to the U.K. the moment that they were allowed and it turned out that the number he quoted was higher than the population of Romania? Maybe he confused the Romanian empire with the Holy Romanian Empire. Easy done so I’m led to believe

Can't find him saying that but it's very clear from what he's said in the past that he thinks they are of inferior class/quality and are not welcome on that basis.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

its just a crying shame the opposition are also a bunch of incompetent twats more concerned about re-defining what is and isn't an acceptable level of antisemitism rather than taking the tories to task...…

Thanks to a media which insists on calling left wingers racist and right wingers beacons of tolerance

 

[torchomatic]

Thanks to a media which insists on calling left wingers racist and right wingers beacons of tolerance

Mmm...there's plenty of evidence, just look at Twitter. Everything isn't always the fault of the media. Corbyn, McDonnell not doing themselves any favours.

I think what makes it worse is those that insist AS is just a way to get at the Dear Leader. Excusing AS is shameful. If people were saying similar things about asians, black people, etc then there would an outcry - and rightly so. It does seem that there is an attitude that Jews are "fair game".

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Mmm...there's plenty of evidence, just look at Twitter. Everything isn't always the fault of the media. Corbyn, McDonnell not doing themselves any favours.

It's easy to find bellends attached to any political movement. A lot of the 'anti-semitism' I have seen is in fact criticism of the Israeli state, which has been a position held for decades.

 

[torchomatic]

It's easy to find bellends attached to any political movement.

Agree, but a lot of things aren't just being said by the usual anonymous idiots on Twitter. I'm Labour through and through so it's sad to see how Labour have (mis)handled things.

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

Thanks to a media which insists on calling left wingers racist and right wingers beacons of tolerance

dunno about that.......but there are certainly plenty of rank & file members as well as MPs & leading Jewish figures uncomfortable with it......

....anyway.....that issue aside, Brexit offered a huge opportunity for Labour to offer an alternative brexit, leaving out of the door on the left which could have re-united the disenfranchised, the youth & the working classes.....and garnered much support & sympathy from many other member states unhappy with the Federalist state expansion....but Corbyn turned out to be a bottler who didn't have the courage of his convictions......shame

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

dunno about that.......but there are certainly plenty of rank & file members as well as MPs & leading Jewish figures uncomfortable with it......

....anyway.....that issue aside, Brexit offered a huge opportunity for Labour to offer an alternative brexit, leaving out of the door on the left which could have re-united the disenfranchised, the youth & the working classes.....and garnered much support & sympathy from many other member states unhappy with the Federalist state expansion....but Corbyn turned out to be a bottler who didn't have the courage of his convictions......shame

Let's be honest whatever he did he would have pissed off half the country and a substantial chunk of Labour voters. He still was able to produce the best Labour manifesto in a long time full of policies which have popular support. Once Brexit is finished, the groups you speak of can be united behind that.

 

[torchomatic]

Yawwwnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

 

[martcov]

Didn’t Ferage also quote a number for apparent Romanians queuing up to come to the U.K. the moment that they were allowed and it turned out that the number he quoted was higher than the population of Romania? Maybe he confused the Romanian empire with the Holy Romanian Empire. Easy done so I’m led to believe

Especially for right wing bullshitters.....

 

[martcov]

Let's be honest whatever he did he would have pissed off half the country and a substantial chunk of Labour voters. He still was able to produce the best Labour manifesto in a long time full of policies which have popular support. Once Brexit is finished, the groups you speak of can be united behind that.

The problem is just beginning as he starts the propaganda for his 70s program of the state sponsored manufacturing.

We are supposed to be getting a great trade deal with Trump to make up for leaving the EU. Trump has already made any deal dependent on no state subsidies. So that’s that then if Corbyn comes to power.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

It is not the EU who is leaving. They can hardly be to blame for Brexit problems. I blame the people who led the leave campaign and those papers who wound people up against the EU.

This is a common misconception that I've seen many times. It was also @torchomatic having a pop at the voters a few pages back.

The reality is, if there was no doubt the EU were doing a good job, we wouldn't have left. You can blame Farage, The Daily Mail, the voters, whatever you like. The reality is, 17.5 million people voted to leave. This is not a mass brainwashing or people not knowing what they were voting for. This is literally millions and millions of people expressing dissatisfaction with them. The numbers would have been considerably less had they been doing a decent job.

There has been almost zero acceptance that the EU have done anything wrong in all of this. They seem to escape criticism a lot more than they should and I do not understand it. Even as a leave voter I acknowledge the EU do a lot of really good things, I also think they do a lot of bad things. The reason this debate goes round and round, and has done for two years is that not everyone in this argument is able to see things from both sides.

Blaming the voters is the same strain of attitude which pushed a lot of people to reject the EU at the referendum in the first place.

 

[Grendel]

Spain?

Greece? Portugal?

 

[Sick Boy]

Really? Ha! I see them agreeing to maybe hold some talks towards it in future... maybe....hardly the same thing is it?

Meanwhile, 25% tariffs remain on Steel & Aluminium & associated products......

I see Juncker agreeing in principle (on behalf of 28 allegedly sovereign states) to spend billions on LNG & soy beans........yep, Trump has managed to sell Juncker some magic beans. LOL

Trump will now probably pat himself on the back, go home & then tweet a correction to his mis-speaking & back-track on it all anyhow.

As for the question "why are we leaving again".......well, I'd suggest having 2 cunts like them negotiating trade deals on our behalf is a good place to start....wouldn't you?

And the honest Liam Fox is any better?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The problem is just beginning as he starts the propaganda for his 70s program of the state sponsored manufacturing.

We are supposed to be getting a great trade deal with Trump to make up for leaving the EU. Trump has already made any deal dependent on no state subsidies. So that’s that then if Corbyn comes to power.

Except he hasn't planned that whatsoever has he.

 

[Cov City Daytrader 87]

Thanks to a media which insists on calling left wingers racist and right wingers beacons of tolerance

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it the same media calling UKIP, Day of freedom of speech, Tommy Robinson etc racist.

So who's side are the media really on?

Or are they playing both sides?

 

[SkyblueBazza]

And those now leading Brexit and the ministers and ex ministers who were so bolshy at the time of the campaign were competent, I suppose?

Well they got the result they wanted is about all I can say on those involved in the leave campaign.
As for the competence of those now leading Brexit...it is slightly worrying that for example Teresa May was a remainer but largely kept quiet

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[SkyblueBazza]

This is a common misconception that I've seen many times. It was also @torchomatic having a pop at the voters a few pages back.

The reality is, if there was no doubt the EU were doing a good job, we wouldn't have left. You can blame Farage, The Daily Mail, the voters, whatever you like. The reality is, 17.5 million people voted to leave. This is not a mass brainwashing or people not knowing what they were voting for. This is literally millions and millions of people expressing dissatisfaction with them. The numbers would have been considerably less had they been doing a decent job.

There has been almost zero acceptance that the EU have done anything wrong in all of this. They seem to escape criticism a lot more than they should and I do not understand it. Even as a leave voter I acknowledge the EU do a lot of really good things, I also think they do a lot of bad things. The reason this debate goes round and round, and has done for two years is that not everyone in this argument is able to see things from both sides.

Blaming the voters is the same strain of attitude which pushed a lot of people to reject the EU at the referendum in the first place.

And there may yet be more to come...
"Exclusive - Polls point to anti-EU surge in European Parliament" - Exclusive - Polls point to anti-EU surge in European Parliament

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[SkyblueBazza]

Fxxk me! I asked a question which covered the ages between 18 and 63. That is a huge section of the population. If Rees Mogg is right, most of us will not see much from the benefits in 50 years time. I said „people“ like us. The reason being that I and my daughter probably won’t be working in Brexit Britain- so not selfish at all. The question was meant to explain the benefits for the people e.g. between 18 and 63. I hardly think that government policy is geared to me and my daughter. Plus, on a „selfish“ note, Brexit takes away my automatic right to live and work in the country where I live ( plus the same goes for the other 1,5 million EU Brits ). You say I have disowned the UK by taking German citizenship- I now have both, so you are wrong as usual. If anything, the UK has disowned me ( and 1,5 million others ) up until now. We are bargaining chips.

I have not referred to the older generation as „little englanders“.

Keep taking the medications

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[Astute]

Following on from that line of posts...

Do you genuinely believe that hardly anyone who voted remain was and is still actually pro EU and it was all votes based on fear?

No mention of Turkey being on the verge of joining the EU with millions of Turks on their way and Syria being highlighted just to increase the levels of fear?

That's a surprise.

Surprise?

You said nobody voted remain through fear. True? Of course it isn't.

So I reminded you that project remain was all about fear. Nobody could say that isn't true as it is a well known fact.

So when pointing out an error you have made in the future would you like to come out with a list of everything I must state so you don't make up such a reply again?

 

[Astute]

Farage put up billboards of immigrants as a consequence of voting Remain. Nobody covered themselves in glory in the referendum, least of all Cameron spending millions of taxpayer pounds trying to persuade people to vote for his side.

All you have to do is look at those who defend anything about the campaigns for the Brexit vote. The vast majority are those desperate to remain. The Tories have always relied on putting fear to the minds of the voters.

The whole thing has been a fuck up from start to where we are now. That DOES include both sides. But of course we have some that only want to discuss one side.

 

[Astute]

Mmm...there's plenty of evidence, just look at Twitter. Everything isn't always the fault of the media. Corbyn, McDonnell not doing themselves any favours.

I think what makes it worse is those that insist AS is just a way to get at the Dear Leader. Excusing AS is shameful. If people were saying similar things about asians, black people, etc then there would an outcry - and rightly so. It does seem that there is an attitude that Jews are "fair game".

This is strange.

When I have said similar Mart and others have ripped into me. Now Mart agrees with you.

I just don't get it.

 

[skybluetony176]

Surprise?

You said nobody voted remain through fear. True? Of course it isn't.

So I reminded you that project remain was all about fear. Nobody could say that isn't true as it is a well known fact.

So when pointing out an error you have made in the future would you like to come out with a list of everything I must state so you don't make up such a reply again?

Project leave was all about fear as well. Vote leave to stop all these immigrants coming to the U.K. and stealing our jobs, homes, benefits, school places, hospital places etc. Vote leave because the the EU is stealing £360M from the NHS on a weekly basis. Vote leave so we can have free trade deals with the US, India, Japan, Australia etc (most of which the EU has tied up free trade deals of some sort over the last two years or has started negotiations with to conclude that). Vote leave because the EU stole our blue passport, only they didn’t. Vote leave to give sovereign powers back to the Houses of Parliament, although we’ll rip a hole through that sovereignty in the name of brexit. The list goes on and on. If people were making their choice based on fear they didn’t vote for either and it’s a nonsense to suggest otherwise.

The failing of both campaigns was that they tried to buy votes based on fears, many of which were irrational rather than trying to buy your votes based on your dreams of aspirations. Neither campaign told you why to vote for them they just told you why not to vote for the other. Anyone who cast their vote based on either campaign needs their head checking.

 

[Astute]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it the same media calling UKIP, Day of freedom of speech, Tommy Robinson etc racist.

So who's side are the media really on?

Or are they playing both sides?

It depends on what the argument of the day is to decide which are racist.

UKIP voters were deemed to be racist on here. Even when it was pointed out black people voted for them. But once it was pointed out that one of the most vociferous remainer on here voted remain it suddenly changed.

 

[Astute]

Project leave was all about fear as well.

And that is the only point that you and others.on here want to put across. But strangely enough I have constantly mentioned both sides.

But you also carry on with lies. The battle bus never said 350m extra a week to the NHS. Wow what an astronomical amount of money. But yes that is how much we hand over to the EU.

Next you will say that we get half back. Half truth half lie. Yes about half comes back to the UK. But it doesn't go back to the tax payer does it. Take a look at where it does go. Billions goes to the rich. But that seems to be OK with some as it can be twisted.

 

[Grendel]

Why people believe Jeremy Corbyn should be criticised for standing up for socialism and true left wing ideology i don’t know.

The problem is the members who got Corbyn into power are essentially half baked liberals who think it’s cool to be left wing. Really they should side with cable and his motley crew of losers.

Now Corbyn is fairly established as a leader he needs to reach out to his core vote. The northern heartlands who voted leave want a voice to protect uk jobs and to be outside the traditional customs union. Protectionism is at the heat of socialism - it’s a core principal.

I’m sure the real voters of labour are pretty happy with Mr Corbyn at the moment.

 

[skybluetony176]

And that is the only point that you and others.on here want to put across. But strangely enough I have constantly mentioned both sides.

But you also carry on with lies. The battle bus never said 350m extra a week to the Wow what an astronomical amount of money. But yes that is how much we hand over to the EU.

Next you will say that we get half back. Half truth half lie. Yes about half comes back to the UK. But it doesn't go back to the tax payer does it. Take a look at where it does go. Billions goes to the rich. But that seems to be OK with some as it can be twisted.

You talk about lies then rewrite what was said on the side of the bus. No it isn’t what we send to the EU. The gross figure is higher and the nett figure is lower. Still it had a nice ring to it so they slapped it on the side of a bus with a deliberately misleading tag line aimed to scare.

 

[skybluetony176]

UKIP voters were deemed to be racist on here.

By you.

 

[Grendel]

You talk about lies then rewrite what was said on the side of the bus. No it isn’t what we send to the EU. The gross figure is higher and the nett figure is lower. Still it had a nice ring to it so they slapped it on the side of a bus with a deliberately misleading tag line aimed to scare.

It isn’t what we send to the NHS? Oh quick edit.

How’s it aimed to scare? It wasn’t actually a lie.

 

[Astute]

You talk about lies then rewrite what was said on the side of the bus. No it isn’t what we send to the EU. The gross figure is higher and the nett figure is lower. Still it had a nice ring to it so they slapped it on the side of a bus with a deliberately misleading tag line aimed to scare.

Come on then. What words were on the side of the bus. You love to say that it was 350m a week to the NHS........

 

[Astute]

By you.

Oh yes. And why was that?

Just remembered. Those you always agree with on here were calling UKIP voters racist. But strangely enough you never spoke up once about being a UKIP voter. So I was calling you racist to see if those who called UKIP voters racist who normally agree with you would agree with me. But strangely enough they never said a word.

Can you see something common with yourself and those who always agree with you?

If you don't agree with each other you just don't make a comment of any sort. But have a biopsy on everything that anyone who doesn't agree with everything you say.

 

[Astute]

It isn’t what we send to the NHS? Oh quick edit.

How’s it aimed to scare? It wasn’t actually a lie.

He has told the lie so many times about what was on the side of the bus that he now believed his own lies :smuggrin:

 

[Sick Boy]

And that is the only point that you and others.on here want to put across. But strangely enough I have constantly mentioned both sides.

Have you ever considered working for Donald Trump?