The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter jimmyhillsfanclub
- Start date
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Best site for factual information is fullfact.org, not just for the EU for politics in general. They fact check, and list sources, PMQs, Question Time etc.
mrtrench
Well-Known Member
The problem is that there are few facts - we just have to weigh up the probabilities and take a punt. This is a vote for the long term. I just read an article however which points out that if we remain it may lead to a huge vote for UKIP in 2020 - I doubt they could get enough to govern but could they get enough to push through leave anyway with the support from Tory & Labour EUphobes?
Otis
Well-Known Member
Apologies for fiddling with your post, but if the shoe fits!
SIR ERNIE
Well-Known Member
Full Fact are anything but independent. Suggest you research and you'll find they too have a clear agenda.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
They discredit a load of tripe that's reported as fact however. Sure you'd agree with that?
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
I can't see that particularly. They have a comical ability to shoot themselves in the foot once you get past the top layer.
I do think (as a left leaning voter) this whole referendum has been marred by it being a Conservative v Conservative focus however. I've wanted to see dynamic left-influenced arguments for both leav an remain. There is, after all, a philosophical argument behind leave that doesn't have to go near immigration or, even, the economy... but nobody seems to have wanted to make it.
tisza
Well-Known Member
"Are we going to choose Nigel Farage's vision - one which takes Britain backwards; divides rather than unites; and questions the motives of anyone who takes a different view," Mr Cameron wrote.
"Or will we, instead, choose the tolerant, liberal Britain; a country that doesn't blame its problems on other groups of people; one that doesn't pine for the past, but looks to the future with hope, optimism and confidence? I think the answer will determine what our country feels like for a very long time."
So is the PM saying that without EU membership the country under his Govt would naturally be intolerant & illiberal? If there is a Brexit his party would still be in Govt until the next election. Is he admitting he can't run our country without European help?
If we leave the EU Farage isn't going to take control it would still be the same main political parties & choices we've always had.
How about our leaders (political & business etc,.) telling us we would be better off in the EU but if we left they would still be good enough to carry the country forward? If they can't then we have the wrong people running the country anyway.
"Or will we, instead, choose the tolerant, liberal Britain; a country that doesn't blame its problems on other groups of people; one that doesn't pine for the past, but looks to the future with hope, optimism and confidence? I think the answer will determine what our country feels like for a very long time."
So is the PM saying that without EU membership the country under his Govt would naturally be intolerant & illiberal? If there is a Brexit his party would still be in Govt until the next election. Is he admitting he can't run our country without European help?
If we leave the EU Farage isn't going to take control it would still be the same main political parties & choices we've always had.
How about our leaders (political & business etc,.) telling us we would be better off in the EU but if we left they would still be good enough to carry the country forward? If they can't then we have the wrong people running the country anyway.
mrtrench
Well-Known Member
I'm a centralist voter - I make my own mind up on every issue and then switch my vote depending on which party is closest to what would be best for the country at that time. I think there are centralist reasons on both sides and I think it boils down to whether you think that the EU can create a benevolent single "country" with wealth and population equally shared or not, because I'm under no doubt that this is what is being attempted. Other factors I've considered is how long it would take to get there; how much pain there will be during the journey and if that pain would cause unrest and disintegration before it got there.
The economy has to be the main concern of everyone IMO - because without a good economy we can't do anything. If you don't like thinking about the impact on the UK and Germany of mass immigration then think about the impact on Poland et al from mass emigration.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
It's the simplistic arguments on the economy (my problem with elections too - I don't care if I'm £500 better off tomorrow if it stuffs the entire economy for years to come) and the sensationalist merging if economic migrants, refugees, and bad people.
That, then, as nobody wants to make the other arguments, means it's the status quo for me as I won't buy into rhetoric for the sake of it.
FWIW, I do think we need to seriously consider how to help countries in danger of losing their skilled workforce
That, then, as nobody wants to make the other arguments, means it's the status quo for me as I won't buy into rhetoric for the sake of it.
FWIW, I do think we need to seriously consider how to help countries in danger of losing their skilled workforce
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
I'm not lifting a finger to help Saudi when the oil runs out. :smuggrin:
eastwoodsdustman
Well-Known Member
No Surprise that Ms Warsi has announced that she's jumped across to the other side. Should be ashamed of herself for allowing herself to be a pawn in ther political game being played.
jimmyhillsfanclub
Well-Known Member
Yep....and what a shit reason for swapping sides......surely as a politician & public figure, she should make an argument regarding the pros & cons for leave & remain.....not just switch sides cos she doesn't like a poster used by the unofficial leave campaign.....
Can she not remember some of her own comments regarding immigration, the BNP & homosexuality by the way....
...shes a morally bankrupt publicity seeking careerist politician with zero mandate from the public....
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Apparantly Brexit were not even aware she was on their side.
I guess she hasn't found a way to get into the news for a while.
eastwoodsdustman
Well-Known Member
Best put down they could have come out with that one. She was clearly a 'plant' and her switch was planned to for maximum effect. The leave campaigns response shows her for what she is/was.
Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
Best of it was the poster was actually correct. It says "the eu has failed us"
This is a referendum on our eu membership so it is relevant and correct.
Obviously the poster is racist and vile as that's what they do. Anything that reflects the truth is racist or sexist or whatever. Such a shit argument.
This is a referendum on our eu membership so it is relevant and correct.
Obviously the poster is racist and vile as that's what they do. Anything that reflects the truth is racist or sexist or whatever. Such a shit argument.
Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
Oh and she was never in the leave campaign let's just clear that up.
I wouldn't want her anywhere near any campaign - always thought she was horrible.
What gets me about the politicians on either side is that most don't realise that it's down to the electorate - it's a referendum, not party politics - one vote for each of us (able and allowed). My tick in the box is just as valid and important as any of theirs!
They have a been a shambles (I will except Chris Grayling on the leave side, and Hilary Benn on remain, who have stuck to the issues, complex as they are)
What gets me about the politicians on either side is that most don't realise that it's down to the electorate - it's a referendum, not party politics - one vote for each of us (able and allowed). My tick in the box is just as valid and important as any of theirs!
They have a been a shambles (I will except Chris Grayling on the leave side, and Hilary Benn on remain, who have stuck to the issues, complex as they are)
Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
Quite right to. It's not politicians who make business and trade and decisions it's us the electorate. Heck even the queen gets a vote but it's just the same as mine.
robbiekeane
Well-Known Member
pounds strengthened today on the back of the swing in the polls&betting markets.
Phew, was getting worried then. Thought it might actually have legs
Phew, was getting worried then. Thought it might actually have legs
robbiekeane
Well-Known Member
Jesus. You know you can probably get The Beano for about the same price right?
Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
What has legs? The pound will fall and rise regardless
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Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
I have on the A45. All over the motorways around Coventry and west mids also.
mrtrench
Well-Known Member
I hope the pound will weaken if we leave. It will make UK goods more attractive and so we'll sell more - not just to the EU either.
It will also cause inflation.
Otis
Well-Known Member
And not so many made up stories about it either.
robbiekeane
Well-Known Member
not neccesarily
Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
Exactly. Got a feeling we will remain now. Seems things have changed not sure why.
We will not just survive outside the eu but we will thrive. We are a square peg in a round hole in the eu. Not part of the euro zone or shengen. Not really sure why we are there.
Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
But quite possibly also
mrtrench
Well-Known Member
I think it will. If the pound weakens it causes all imports to be more expensive. The price of goods is what makes the inflation figure. Tell me why you think it won't.
EDIT: decided to explain with a simple example: French widgets cost 2 EUR. If there are 2 EUR to 1 GBP then they cost £1 to buy in the UK. If the pound weakens to parity with EUR they will then cost £2 each. That is the definition of inflation.
robbiekeane
Well-Known Member
Monetarist quantity theory of money. MV = PT
Your assumption is based (I think? tell me if im wrong) on all international imports becoming relatively more expensive, and therefore domestic spending (and the velocity of this) would increase, which would increase price levels.
But if we left the EU (which i am against), then only EU imports would become much more expensive with a weakened pound. This would likely be offset by the benefit we get from accessing the world market prices.
Your assumption is based (I think? tell me if im wrong) on all international imports becoming relatively more expensive, and therefore domestic spending (and the velocity of this) would increase, which would increase price levels.
But if we left the EU (which i am against), then only EU imports would become much more expensive with a weakened pound. This would likely be offset by the benefit we get from accessing the world market prices.
mrtrench
Well-Known Member
If the pound weakens it becomes weak against all currencies not just the EUR, so all imports cost more. Your scenario assumes that the EUR strengthens. And we already have access to world markets - it's just that they are subject to an import tax. Eventually, if we negotiated trade deals with more markets not currently having a deal with Europe, then yes the price of those goods would fall. However if that happened the pound would strengthen anyway.
robbiekeane
Well-Known Member
My point was the two bold bits highlighted in your post above would likely offset each other, as we would no longer be subject to protectionist EU tarrifs. So, what we would previously import from Europe we would probably just get from the world market as it would be more attractive re import parity. Based on this I don't think we would neccesarily see the inflation you talk about.
jimmyhillsfanclub
Well-Known Member
Its OK everyone.....chill out.....that colossus of political, social & international financial history, Dr. David Beckham, has said we should "remain, innit, cos of cantona & schmiechel and stuff"