The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (173 Viewers)

Astute · Dec 17, 2018

Sick Boy said:
It’s all about her wanting to appear tough to the Brexiteers and saving her career, who knows what she genuinely thinks.

I wonder when she is going to start being ‘a bloody difficult woman’ in these ‘negotiations’?

She doesn't want to save her career. She has already said she is going.

To me what she wants to save is the Tory party. The Tories rely on floating voters. There is not enough rich to keep them in. There isn't enough middle class to keep them in. What they need is people who class themselves as middle class when they are working class.

And here is her problem. Most seats are in England. Most of England voted leave. Hardly anywhere voted remain. So if we end up staying in the EU the Tories will struggle for votes in the next GE. So she is trying to keep everyone happy but is making most unhappy. The EU doesn't want a deal. They want us to stay in. Those who want to remain are not happy. Those who want to leave are not happy.

And yet again she is ruling out another referendum as it would be irreparable damage to the integrity of our politics. I expect her to reiterate it again today. And I think it is for the reasons above.

Astute · Dec 17, 2018

Sky Blue Pete said:
New EU poll 'would break faith with people'

Would it really? I’m still reeling that our elected representatives abdicated their responsibility on the issue but surely there is a way of asking the people on what they would know want given what’s happened? Maybe trust is irrecoverably lost in any case as there are very few politicians that seem to understand the issue affecting a majority of their constituents.

Missed this post :shy:

Of course it will. They voted to leave. They wanted to leave. They still want to leave. And many will feel that the government will do anything to stop what they voted for happening.

martcov · Dec 17, 2018

Astute said:
Is it surprising that people thought it would be easy when we had MP's that didn't have a clue?

It could have been a lot easier. But the EU doesn't want us to leave. They constantly told us we could change our minds and they wouldn't hold it against us. They have continued with project fear like for instance all of our aircraft will not be able to fly. That has never been correct.

They have too much to lose from us leaving. But it has all been directed to what we have to lose. And the fear is getting to people.

They need the billions off us each year. Germany isn't as strong as people think. They have more poor than us. And they are by far the strongest.

But the EU is the same as nearly every government. This includes the UK government. They don't care about the citizens. They care about themselves and the rich.

All we can do is vote someone in and hope they will be better than the last lot. But when did we last have a government that was for the people? Most on here wouldn't have even been born.

All we have is mistrust for those in charge. And if we end up staying in the EU the last small bit of trust will be gone.

If we end up staying in the EU your remain vote in the first referendum would not be betrayed. You voted remain don’t forget.

Sick Boy · Dec 17, 2018

Astute said:
She doesn't want to save her career. She has already said she is going.

To me what she wants to save is the Tory party. The Tories rely on floating voters. There is not enough rich to keep them in. There isn't enough middle class to keep them in. What they need is people who class themselves as middle class when they are working class.

And here is her problem. Most seats are in England. Most of England voted leave. Hardly anywhere voted remain. So if we end up staying in the EU the Tories will struggle for votes in the next GE. So she is trying to keep everyone happy but is making most unhappy. The EU doesn't want a deal. They want us to stay in. Those who want to remain are not happy. Those who want to leave are not happy.

And yet again she is ruling out another referendum as it would be irreparable damage to the integrity of our politics. I expect her to reiterate it again today. And I think it is for the reasons above.

Hardly anyone in England voted remain? Apart from the 13.2 million people, you mean? The split was 53.4% leave and 46.6% for remain.

martcov · Dec 17, 2018

Astute said:
Missed this post :shy:

Of course it will. They voted to leave. They wanted to leave. They still want to leave. And many will feel that the government will do anything to stop what they voted for happening.

They were told leaving would be easy. Leaving would benefit them. Leaving would be quick.

Turned out to be bullshit.

Now the majority of them would vote remain in a second referendum.

They are pissed of with their government. Soon they will turn on the people who lied to them.

Grendel · Dec 17, 2018

martcov said:
Having failed to give an intelligent response to a link to a speech made by our ex representative in the EU, a man who does know what he is talking about and who didn’t take an agressive stance in his speech, you resort to summing it up as bilge and throwing in a misspelled insult. ( It is Haw Haw not Hawe Hawe ).

Says it all really.

The fact is Mart its the most fitting response of all to you as you cannot cope with any discussion on anything. As soon as you are on the backfoot (as always) you always do what you have accused me of. You rant, you froth and you go off on wild delusional tangents.

You ruin the whole discussion and add nothing positive which is why people hit the ignore button.

The only purpose you serve is to show people how the EU view the UK and the bitterness and resentment you have at having people dare to stand up to the Brussels machine that you are obsessed with

The EU is your Koran. You are an obsessive and as the date nears your rabid nonsense is increasing by the day

Oh and aggressive has 2 G's Mart and yes I am sure you are far more familiar with him than me

Sky Blue Pete · Dec 17, 2018

Astute said:
Is it surprising that people thought it would be easy when we had MP's that didn't have a clue?

It could have been a lot easier. But the EU doesn't want us to leave. They constantly told us we could change our minds and they wouldn't hold it against us. They have continued with project fear like for instance all of our aircraft will not be able to fly. That has never been correct.

They have too much to lose from us leaving. But it has all been directed to what we have to lose. And the fear is getting to people.

They need the billions off us each year. Germany isn't as strong as people think. They have more poor than us. And they are by far the strongest.

But the EU is the same as nearly every government. This includes the UK government. They don't care about the citizens. They care about themselves and the rich.

All we can do is vote someone in and hope they will be better than the last lot. But when did we last have a government that was for the people? Most on here wouldn't have even been born.

All we have is mistrust for those in charge. And if we end up staying in the EU the last small bit of trust will be gone.

Thank you again. Most of my friends (though by no means all) see being part of a joined up europe as the main reason for staying part of it. It’s way bigger than a few billion here or a regulation there but that does make sense. So I think I’m on the side of i do trust people until they give me reason not too and that means I implicitly distrust the conservative policies more than I distrust the social democrat leaning of Most of Europe. Accepting your premise that this is the last bit of trust how do we get to the point where we can move forward without asking everyone again?

martcov · Dec 17, 2018

Grendel said:
The fact is Mart its the most fitting response of all to you as you cannot cope with any discussion on anything. As soon as you are on the backfoot (as always) you always do what you have accused me of. You rant, you froth and you go off on wild delusional tangents.

You ruin the whole discussion and add nothing positive which is why people hit the ignore button.

The only purpose you serve is to show people how the EU view the UK and the bitterness and resentment you have at having people dare to stand up to the Brussels machine that you are obsessed with

The EU is your Koran. You are an obsessive and as the date nears your rabid nonsense is increasing by the day

Oh and aggressive has 2 G's Mart and yes I am sure you are far more familiar with him than me

I don’t rant. I don’t froth. I don’t insult most people. I don’t ruin the whole discussion by putting an alternative viewpoint to yours. Look at the people who push the ignore button: Dart ( Breitbart and other far right websites as his source), Bazza ( thick ), Astute ( flounce and confusing), and yourself rabid and inconsistent.

No mate, it is your constant insults and half baked posts that ruin the discussion.

Astute · Dec 17, 2018

Sick Boy said:
Hardly anyone in England voted remain? Apart from the 13.2 million people, you mean? The split was 53.4% leave and 46.6% for remain.

Would you like to point out where I said that hardly anyone voted remain?

Is this a twisting of words or was it just not reading what I said properly?

Most areas of England voted leave. That is what I said. MP's get voted in by an area voting for them. It isn't proportional representation.

Here is something for you to deny if you are trying to say I am being untruthful.

EU Referendum Results

martcov · Dec 17, 2018

Grendel said:
The fact is Mart its the most fitting response of all to you as you cannot cope with any discussion on anything. As soon as you are on the backfoot (as always) you always do what you have accused me of. You rant, you froth and you go off on wild delusional tangents.

You ruin the whole discussion and add nothing positive which is why people hit the ignore button.

The only purpose you serve is to show people how the EU view the UK and the bitterness and resentment you have at having people dare to stand up to the Brussels machine that you are obsessed with

The EU is your Koran. You are an obsessive and as the date nears your rabid nonsense is increasing by the day

Oh and aggressive has 2 G's Mart and yes I am sure you are far more familiar with him than me

As for contributions, the most recent example from me was a link to a speech at Liverpool Uni explaining where the negotiations went wrong and why from our ex representative in Brussels. Your contribution was „bilge“. You now accuse me of adding nothing to the discussion. Would you evaluate the contribution of 1. a rational and knowledgeable speech by someone who knows what he is talking about and 2. an insulting clown on social media who says „bilge“?

Thanks in advance for the sensible answer.

Astute · Dec 17, 2018

Sky Blue Pete said:
Thank you again. Most of my friends (though by no means all) see being part of a joined up europe as the main reason for staying part of it. It’s way bigger than a few billion here or a regulation there but that does make sense. So I think I’m on the side of i do trust people until they give me reason not too and that means I implicitly distrust the conservative policies more than I distrust the social democrat leaning of Most of Europe. Accepting your premise that this is the last bit of trust how do we get to the point where we can move forward without asking everyone again?

As I said before I don't have the answer.

I have always had a mistrust of the Tories. Personally I haven't done as bad as most out of their policies. But that doesn't mean that I should ignore what has happened. Most people don't do well out of the Tories. They are all for the rich and better off. That is why they love the EU.

As I keep saying there is good and bad of being in the EU. It is just like the Tories. Many don't see themselves as personally gaining out of the EU. But they see where they are worse off. They don't look at the whole picture. But that is the same for many on both sides.

Ideally there would be a good deal. It would be win win for all. But the EU wants and needs our money. They know they will still get our trade. So I don't expect tariffs. But as we all know there is much more to it than that.

SkyblueBazza · Dec 17, 2018

Grendel said:
The fact is Mart its the most fitting response of all to you as you cannot cope with any discussion on anything. As soon as you are on the backfoot (as always) you always do what you have accused me of. You rant, you froth and you go off on wild delusional tangents.

You ruin the whole discussion and add nothing positive which is why people hit the ignore button.

The only purpose you serve is to show people how the EU view the UK and the bitterness and resentment you have at having people dare to stand up to the Brussels machine that you are obsessed with

The EU is your Koran. You are an obsessive and as the date nears your rabid nonsense is increasing by the day

Oh and aggressive has 2 G's Mart and yes I am sure you are far more familiar with him than me

Mart suddenly thinks the man he poured scorn on during his tenure as negotiator, is now a man who knows what he is talking about.

Incredible & laughable

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Mucca Mad Boys · Dec 17, 2018

dutchman said:
If she is then she's committed to a 'Brexit' in name only. Her so-called 'deal' would tie the UK to Brussels indefinitely.

She wants to able to say to the Brexiteers in her party "Look, I've taken us out" then say to the anti-Brexiteers "Look, I've taken us out but in name only".

She wants to say to able to say the Irish: "You're still in the EU even though you're still part of Britain and Britain has left the EU".

One of the briefs to her underlings was "How can we find a form of words which appeals to both sides?"

She's "all things to all men", that's been her style all along.

So why is Theresa May dead set against a second referendum and has staked her career on delivering Brexit? It doesn’t sound like someone who is deliberately undermining Brexit.

Of course she has to peddle both sides carefully in government, otherwise she wouldn’t be able to get a deal through. MPs who voted Leave are a minority in Parliament. An aggressive Brexit, negotiated by someone like Boris Johnson, for example, would face the exact same problems Theresa May faces. Parliament is in charge of the final Brexit deal, not the PM.

Grendel · Dec 17, 2018

martcov said:
I don’t rant. I don’t froth. I don’t insult most people. I don’t ruin the whole discussion by putting an alternative viewpoint to yours. Look at the people who push the ignore button: Dart ( Breitbart and other far right websites as his source), Bazza ( thick ), Astute ( flounce and confusing), and yourself rabid and inconsistent.

No mate, it is your constant insults and half baked posts that ruin the discussion.

Brilliant

martcov said:
It is important that tossers like you know that. You aren’t different to plenty of other that I’ve met over the years. And, I haven’t done it all,and I am not top at everything, but I am miles ahead of you.

martcov said:
F off. Twat.

martcov said:
27 Posts in reaction to twats like you throwing Soros into a discussion you were losing. Now leg it you coward.

martcov · Dec 17, 2018

Grendel said:
Brilliant

Yes. Out of how many posts? And in reply to insults... not original insults. Now show all your insulting posts in the interest of balance.

martcov · Dec 17, 2018

SkyblueBazza said:
Mart suddenly thinks the man he poured scorn on during his tenure as negotiator, is now a man who knows what he is talking about.

Incredible & laughable

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

? No idea what you are on about.

Grendel · Dec 17, 2018

martcov said:
Yes. Out of how many posts? And in reply to insults... not original insults. Now show all your insulting posts in the interest of balance.

Oh there is hundreds shall I get a full list?

Deleted member 5849 · Dec 17, 2018

Grendel said:
Oh there is hundreds shall I get a full list?

tbf we'd have to cut down the remaining rainforests to print off your list.

martcov · Dec 17, 2018

Grendel said:
Oh there is hundreds shall I get a full list?

Yes, I like a good read. Can you publish them in book form? I don’t have enough memory in my computer.

Grendel · Dec 17, 2018

martcov said:
Yes, I like a good read. Can you publish them in book form? I don’t have enough memory in my computer.

The problem is Mart there isn’t one person who opposes your opinion that you haven’t insulted is there?

Astute · Dec 17, 2018

Grendel said:
The problem is Mart there isn’t one person who opposes your opinion that you haven’t insulted is there?

He never says a word to those who disagree with him that normally agree. He saves his rants for those who pick out the bullshit he comes out with. Because those who want the same as him rarely say anything against his bullshit. It is like a closed shop. That is why I call it remain whatever.

skybluetony176 · Dec 17, 2018

Deleted member 5849 said:
tbf we'd have to cut down the remaining rainforests to print off your list.

Grendull calling people out for being insulting would be like the winner of the Indy500 dishing out speeding tickets at the Indy500

Ashdown · Dec 17, 2018

martcov said:
I don’t rant. I don’t froth. I don’t insult most people. I don’t ruin the whole discussion by putting an alternative viewpoint to yours. Look at the people who push the ignore button: Dart ( Breitbart and other far right websites as his source), Bazza ( thick ), Astute ( flounce and confusing), and yourself rabid and inconsistent.

No mate, it is your constant insults and half baked posts that ruin the discussion.

Actually I bet I could look back and see where you have insulted and tried to humiliate all opponents to your view. You need to chill out !

martcov · Dec 17, 2018

Grendel said:
The problem is Mart there isn’t one person who opposes your opinion that you haven’t insulted is there?

Name one person who I have insulted that hasn’t insulted me first.

martcov · Dec 17, 2018

Ashdown said:
Actually I bet I could look back and see where you have insulted and tried to humiliate all opponents to your view. You need to chill out !

You’re not a choir boy yourself. Look at who insults first. Not me.

martcov · Dec 17, 2018

Astute said:
He never says a word to those who disagree with him that normally agree. He saves his rants for those who pick out the bullshit he comes out with. Because those who want the same as him rarely say anything against his bullshit. It is like a closed shop. That is why I call it remain whatever.

Give me an example of you picking out bullshit.

Astute · Dec 17, 2018

martcov said:
Name one person who I have insulted that hasn’t insulted me first.

Me for one. But you will only lie about it .

Astute · Dec 17, 2018

martcov said:
Give me an example of you picking out bullshit.

Every time you have started off a stupid argument with me. You always do it instead of admitting that you are wrong.

Astute · Dec 17, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
Grendull calling people out for being insulting would be like the winner of the Indy500 dishing out speeding tickets at the Indy500

And backed up by the biggest bullshitter on here. What a shock.

Sky Blue Pete · Dec 17, 2018

Astute said:
As I said before I don't have the answer.

I have always had a mistrust of the Tories. Personally I haven't done as bad as most out of their policies. But that doesn't mean that I should ignore what has happened. Most people don't do well out of the Tories. They are all for the rich and better off. That is why they love the EU.

As I keep saying there is good and bad of being in the EU. It is just like the Tories. Many don't see themselves as personally gaining out of the EU. But they see where they are worse off. They don't look at the whole picture. But that is the same for many on both sides.

Ideally there would be a good deal. It would be win win for all. But the EU wants and needs our money. They know they will still get our trade. So I don't expect tariffs. But as we all know there is much more to it than that.

I’ve no answer either if I’m honest. I think my barrier to moving forward is that I can’t get over Cameron abdicating his responsibility and the responsibility of Parliament

Grendel · Dec 17, 2018

martcov said:
Name one person who I have insulted that hasn’t insulted me first.

You constantly insulted me when I had you on ignore. Every poster who wants Brexit has been abused by you.

Philosoraptor · Dec 17, 2018

I see some people are struggling with understanding was Democracy means.

The People were asked for their decision. They gave it.

Everything else is secondary to us now leaving the EU.

I can see us leaving with no deal which contrary to what most political parties say, is what a 'No' vote in the referendum was all about.

I think until the governing states in the EU realise why the UK voted for leave and make the necessary changes to this neo-liberal hell hole where people have a vote but don't really vote on anything then it's doomed to failure.

What is needed is a complete blank slate institutionally EU-wise before the UK should even consider another referendum to join.

clint van damme · Dec 17, 2018

Philosorapter said:
I see some people are struggling with understand was Democracy means.

The People were asked for their decision. They gave it.

Everything else is secondary to us now leaving the EU.

I can see us leaving with no deal which contrary to what most political parties say, is what a 'No' vote in the referendum was all about.

I think until the governing states in the EU realise why the UK voted for leave and make the necessary changes to this neo-liberal hell hole where people have a vote but don't really vote on anything then it's doomed to failure.

What is needed is a complete blank slate institutionally EU-wise before the UK should even consider another referendum to join.

we're living in a neo liberal hell hole, (see recent UN report), just not a globalist one.

Sky Blue Pete · Dec 17, 2018

Philosorapter said:
I see some people are struggling with understand was Democracy means.

The People were asked for their decision. They gave it.

Everything else is secondary to us now leaving the EU.

I can see us leaving with no deal which contrary to what most political parties say, is what a 'No' vote in the referendum was all about.

I think until the governing states in the EU realise why the UK voted for leave and make the necessary changes to this neo-liberal hell hole where people have a vote but don't really vote on anything then it's doomed to failure.

What is needed is a complete blank slate institutionally EU-wise before the UK should even consider another referendum to join.

Careful what you wish for

Philosoraptor · Dec 17, 2018

clint van damme said:
we're living in a neo liberal hell hole, (see recent UN report), just not a globalist one.

I wouldn't deny this.

When the two main parties search for the centre ground and lose sight on the goals on what their parties were set up on then what do you expect.

British politics has/had lost it way from the capitalist/socialist divide and it almost like we vote for managers now to run the economy/country instead of ideologies.

You can see this in the falling turnover for elections that has happened over the last few decades but the turnout is still there for the major referendums.

This tells me people want change and their voice is not being listened to by the major parties.

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (173 Viewers)

As of right now, how are thinking of voting? In or out

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