The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (186 Viewers)

[Philosoraptor]

Careful what you wish for

Whatever I wished doesn't come into it. It is the wishes of the British people.

It needs to be respected no matter how you voted.

 

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[clint van damme]

just to be clear, I don't for one minute think this country is a hell hole but was just copying the rather emotive description used by Philosorapter, I don't think that the other 27 EU member countries are hell holes either.
Is he right to describe the EU as neo liberal? Definitely, but so is our current government just a different type of neoliberalism.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Whatever I wished doesn't come into it. It is the wishes of the British people.

It needs to be respected no matter how you voted.

If you're into referenda, then you've got no problem with them being called again and again. The people always have the chance to vote how they like then.

Democracy certainly isn't passing something through on mistruths,

 

[Philosoraptor]

just to be clear, I don't for one minute think this country is a hell hole but was just copying the rather emotive description used by Philosorapter, I don't think that the other 27 EU member countries are hell holes either.
Is he right to describe the EU as neo liberal? Definitely, but so is our current government just a different type of neoliberalism.

I am not calling countries hell holes but the ideas on how the politicians from the different countries form their opinion from their electorates and within the EU itself.

 

[Philosoraptor]

If you're into referenda, then you've got no problem with them being called again and again. The people always have the chance to vote how they like then.

Democracy certainly isn't passing something through on mistruths,

Actually repeating referendas is a bad idea. Where do you stop? Best of Three? Best of Five?

There should be a difference in the nature of why a referendum is called. To vote for the something after we've just had a referendum on the same issue really defeats the purpose of a referendum.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Whatever I wished doesn't come into it. It is the wishes of the British people.

It needs to be respected no matter how you voted.

They didn’t vote to crash out

 

[Philosoraptor]

There should be at least some time for the country to figure out if this is the way forward from the first referendum be it ten or twenty years before another referendum is called.

 

[Philosoraptor]

They didn’t vote to crash out

It's 'We' and we voted 'No'.

This isn't hardline stuff. This is what we voted for. To subdue what we as a people voted for as a nation is completely right wing stuff.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Actually repeating referendas is a bad idea.

Not if it isn't a repetition (see below). Anyway, true democracy would see a peoples' vote on every action. You're just imposing a version of democracy in your interpretation of it which could, indeed, be argued to be particularly undemocractic.

There should be a difference in the nature of why a referendum is called. To vote for the something after we've just had a referendum on the same issue really defeats the purpose of a referendum.

Given those who voted leave are most against us, well... leaving, then it's totally undemocratic to push through something that has the support of a minority of the people. *That* is what has changed.

 

[Philosoraptor]

Not if it isn't a repetition (see below). Anyway, true democracy would see a peoples' vote on every action. You're just imposing a version of democracy in your interpretation of it which could, indeed, be argued to be particularly undemocractic.


Given those who voted leave are most against us, well... leaving, then it's totally undemocratic to push through something that has the support of a minority of the people. *That* is what has changed.

Every different person has their own version of Democracy.

Direct Democracy from the Spartans to German Democratic Republic (East Germany). Neither I would say is anywhere near the Democracy we portray in the UK.

I think the problem started here when the UK government in Thatchers time agreed to the setting up of the EU without putting these ideas before the UK people to vote on in a referendum. The same could be argued with the other European nations as well.

The simple answer would of been that these idea about an EU state would of been voted down easily by the people of the individual nations. So they kicked the idea of giving a referendum to individual nations into the long grass and thought they would solve this issue further on down the road whilst there was a one of the biggest sovereignty changes in modern times without the people having a say on the issue.

What we are look at here is the people of some of these nations not being listened to for the last thirty years.

Maybe we should have another thirty years to sort this mess out before we have another referendum. After all, this seems to be the time limit from when the EU was set up for us until we had a vote on the issue.

It seems like there is a precedent already set up now in this regards.

 

[Philosoraptor]

I really need to install spell checker before I type here

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

It's 'We' and we voted 'No'.

This isn't hardline stuff. This is what we voted for. To subdue what we as a people voted for as a nation is completely right wing stuff.

Ok we!! didn’t vote to crash out but I’m content to give politicians time to sort things out together but not at the expense of our economic future

 

[Captain Dart]

I see some people are struggling with understanding was Democracy means.

The People were asked for their decision. They gave it.

Everything else is secondary to us now leaving the EU.

I can see us leaving with no deal which contrary to what most political parties say, is what a 'No' vote in the referendum was all about.

I think until the governing states in the EU realise why the UK voted for leave and make the necessary changes to this neo-liberal hell hole where people have a vote but don't really vote on anything then it's doomed to failure.

What is needed is a complete blank slate institutionally EU-wise before the UK should even consider another referendum to join.

That is pretty much word for word what May just said. :angelic:

 

[martcov]

Every time you have started off a stupid argument with me. You always do it instead of admitting that you are wrong.

Comedy gold.

 

[martcov]

Me for one. But you will only lie about it .

Show me the post and I’ll believe you. If not I’ll put it down as another Astute lie.

 

[BackRoomRummermill]

Lets get out, the UK voted out . All this re run is bull -shite even more embarrassing than the SNP wanting indy 2 . get over it , get on board and lets move on. If you cant then fuck off we don't want you.

This debate was done 2 years ago

 

[martcov]

It's 'We' and we voted 'No'.

This isn't hardline stuff. This is what we voted for. To subdue what we as a people voted for as a nation is completely right wing stuff.

You voted to possibly screw the country up. To withdraw from the best trade deal we can get, from working together with 27 other countries in our region and to lose the benefits of all the deals the EU has with third countries. You voted to impose tariffs on the UK and end the single market for services where we have a big surplus with the EU.

You then wonder why the majority would now vote remain.

 

[martcov]

Lets get out, the UK voted out . All this re run is bull -shite even more embarrassing than the SNP wanting indy 2 . get over it , get on board and lets move on. If you cant then fuck off we don't want you.

That’s the present majority you are talking to. What does get on board mean? How?

Are you on board with SISU because they want you to be?

 

[clint van damme]

Lets get out, the UK voted out . All this re run is bull -shite even more embarrassing than the SNP wanting indy 2 . get over it , get on board and lets move on. If you cant then fuck off we don't want you.

This debate was done 2 years ago

There was a mechanism within the first Indy vote that allowed for a second referendum if there was what I think was referred to a material change.
The UK leaving the EU constitutes such as change so they're quite within their rights to call for it.
I think they're mad. Brexit has been enough for me, theyve been through two, surely no one's got the stamina for a third?!

 

[BackRoomRummermill]

You voted to possibly screw the country up. To withdraw from the best trade deal we can get, from working together with 27 other countries in our region and to lose the benefits of all the deals the EU has with third countries. You voted to impose tariffs on the UK and end the single market for services where we have a big surplus with the EU.

You then wonder why the majority would now vote remain.

get over it the vote was done. its called democracy something the UK is actually a bastion of , maybe the unwashed chavs cant understand it and didn't listen at school ( if they went ) Its done

 

[martcov]

You constantly insulted me when I had you on ignore. Every poster who wants Brexit has been abused by you.

I don’t remember that, but if I did, it was a retort to you blocking and insulting me. You insult me on a daily basis because you have no valid arguments.

 

[BackRoomRummermill]

That’s the present majority you are talking to. What does get on board mean? How?

Are you on board with SISU because they want you to be?

Random

Why cant you accept a vote ?

 

[martcov]

get over it the vote was done. its called democracy something the UK is actually a bastion of , maybe the unwashed chavs cant understand it and didn't listen at school ( if they went ) Its done

It obviously isn’t done. Reality is different to what you were told.

 

[martcov]

Random

Why cant you accept a vote ?

I accept the vote. However, things are looking different now. The public are no longer pro Brexit.

 

[BackRoomRummermill]

There was a mechanism within the first Indy vote that allowed for a second referendum if there was what I think was referred to a material change.
The UK leaving the EU constitutes such as change so they're quite within their rights to call for it.
I think they're mad. Brexit has been enough for me, theyve been through two, surely no one's got the stamina for a third?!

I live in Scotland there is no mechanism for indy 2 if Brexit was never gonna happen , that's it. If they re run it it will still be the same result .

read this as you will , Catholic 43% , Protestant 48% we know how the vote will go already which is why the littke cranky is trying to cosy up to ethnic groups and invited any Syrian she can over to win votes.

If you don't live here you don't know so don't comment from sky news ticker tape , its far deeper

 

[BackRoomRummermill]

I accept the vote. However, things are looking different now. The public are no longer pro Brexit.

So what , people vote for governments they end up regretting , its not the end of the world. I could not give a tuppeny fuck. The rose tinted glasses of Europe ….. yellow vested thugs defacing memorials , Guardia civil acting like Putin off Gibraltar , the only decent ones are the Scandinavians and they are not sure of euro either , oh and the Italians . you have been brain washed by the groping kissing president of the EU . Or you are a labour supporter wanting the conservatives out? If this is the case I will buy you an abacus off ebay for the next budget .

 

[martcov]

So what , people vote for governments they end up regretting , its not the end of the world. I could not give a tuppeny fuck. The rose tinted glasses of Europe ….. yellow vested thugs defacing memorials , Guardia civil acting like Putin off Gibraltar , the only decent ones are the Scandinavians and they are not sure of euro either , oh and the Italians . you have been brain washed by the groping kissing president of the EU . Or you are a labour supporter wanting the conservatives out? If this is the case I will buy you an abacus off ebay for the next budget .

People vote for governments they end up regretting and are given a chance every few years to change the government. It’s democracy.

I am not labour, but I would love to see the present government kicked into touch. The conservatives are responsible for this mess. They have to go.

 

[clint van damme]

I live in Scotland there is no mechanism for indy 2 if Brexit was never gonna happen , that's it. If they re run it it will still be the same result .

read this as you will , Catholic 43% , Protestant 48% we know how the vote will go already which is why the littke cranky is trying to cosy up to ethnic groups and invited any Syrian she can over to win votes.

If you don't live here you don't know so don't comment from sky news ticker tape , its far deeper

Didn't realise you had to live somewhere to have an opinion on the goings on in that country.
And have family up there, split between yes ano voters in the Indy referendum so I'm fairly well informed of what goes on thanks.
And the material change Claus I spoke about was in the wording of the first referendum albeit it isn't a guarantee of a second referendum so you're not quite as well informed as you thought.

 

[BackRoomRummermill]

The real truth is all the Labour hotspots like Sunderland , and the north voted out . That scruffy twat Corbyn is in a right pickle ha ha

 

[BackRoomRummermill]

Didn't realise you had to live somewhere to have an opinion on the goings on in that country.
And have family up there, split between yes ano voters in the Indy referendum so I'm fairly well informed of what goes on thanks.
And the material change Claus I spoke about was in the wording of the first referendum albeit it isn't a guarantee of a second referendum so you're not quite as well informed as you thought.

Are you one of the twats that waves flags over the A720 every weekend ?

You post like one

 

[clint van damme]

Are you one of the twats that waves flags over the A720 every weekend ?

You post like one

No idea what you're on and no opinion on whether Scotland should or shouldn't vote for independence.
Just pointing out to you that they're entitled to which you were oblivious to.
I wouldn't have bothered educating you if I'd known how angry it was going to make you.
Please apologise on my behalf to your carer, sounds like there in for a difficult evening.

 

[BackRoomRummermill]

No idea what you're on and no opinion on whether Scotland should or shouldn't vote for independence.
Just pointing out to you that they're entitled to which you were oblivious to.
I wouldn't have bothered educating you if I'd known how angry it was going to make you.
Please apologise on my behalf to your carer, sounds like there in for a difficult evening.

Ha ha your so funny for a tatty muncher , brilliant bravo .

Yes they have always been entitled to a new Indy 2 , Indy 3 , Indy 4 but they won’t get it

Hang on Brexit 1 , Brexit 2 , Brexit 3

My carer as you mention said that shouldn’t happen and only occurs when people cannot accept the will of the people .

I mention the flags over the Edinburgh bypass , there is only ever a single person , it must be you

Dreghorn junction or hermistan gait?

 

[Astute]

Not if it isn't a repetition (see below). Anyway, true democracy would see a peoples' vote on every action. You're just imposing a version of democracy in your interpretation of it which could, indeed, be argued to be particularly undemocractic.


Given those who voted leave are most against us, well... leaving, then it's totally undemocratic to push through something that has the support of a minority of the people. *That* is what has changed.

If that is the case then the Tories shouldn't be in charge. The majority didn't vote for them.

And what would happen if we had a referendum again and the winning side only won by 4% again?

How many more referendums would we need until everyone is satisfied?

Or is it we keep having referendums until the present minority are satisfied?

 

[Astute]

There was a mechanism within the first Indy vote that allowed for a second referendum if there was what I think was referred to a material change.
The UK leaving the EU constitutes such as change so they're quite within their rights to call for it.
I think they're mad. Brexit has been enough for me, theyve been through two, surely no one's got the stamina for a third?!

So what you are saying is that for us being allowed a referendum we should have had another one if the government didn't get the result they wanted first time?

If the Tories didn't want us to leave they shouldn't have given us the choice. They should have said if we want out we should vote for someone else. But they wanted to get back the voters that had gone to UKIP.

 

[BackRoomRummermill]

So what you are saying is that for us being allowed a referendum we should have had another one if the government didn't get the result they wanted first time?

If the Tories didn't want us to leave they shouldn't have given us the choice. They should have said if we want out we should vote for someone else. But they wanted to get back the voters that had gone to UKIP.

Stop it your talking sense , revert to some some stupidity please , it’s the general theme for this thread .