clint van damme
Well-Known Member
so my point stands, you're making a good case for a second referendum as this was one mans poor policy making.
I don't agree with your point and I don't agree with a second referendum.
Yes I do blame Cameron more than the voters who were lied to.
He bought votes in the GE by saying that we would get a referendum if the Tories got back in. If Cameron never offered the referendum to buy cites the referendum wouldn't have happened.
Then you have the voters. Cameron told the truth about getting a referendum if he got back in. Vote for Cameron vote for referendum. Yet not the voters fault.
Listen to the lies and project fear from both sides. Millions voted both ways because of the lies. Yet you say it was the voters fault.
Hope that clears it up for you.
Likewise. Dunno who does these opinion polls, but everyone I speak to (whichever way they voted) still feel the same......I literally haven't met a single leave voter who has changed their mind. .....
But you want to go against a democratic vote to see if you can have another referendum because you don't like the result.
And again I put up the same long post. You pick out one small single sentence from it. How about putting that small single sentence into the context of the whole post. As in the problems caused if another referendum is called.
All you keep doing is pushing forward your own agenda. How about considering other things. Like what would happen if you got your own way.
What was the question posed in the referendum?
I'm sure it was leave or remain. Nothing about deals. Nothing to do with the EU doing whatever they can to keep their claws in us.
I think that’s as blind to the realities of the situation as some who about second refurrendum without understanding the complexities of how this would be interpreted by millions of people.There's only 'impasse' because remainers won't stop making noise.
My solution would be to carry on as normal and execute a no deal, but I'm not in charge...
There was no pressure on Cameron. He thought the plebs would vote remain.
And I was right. You are going to come out with excuses to try and back up your comments.
You are preaching to someone who would prefer to stay in the EU. My wife right at this minute is looking for a house to buy in France. But I look at the faults of each side. I don't look to blame the voters.
......Is May’s deal what you and most Leavers voted for? No. Do you want May’s deal to be ratified? From what I gather, no. Voters did not vote for no-deal......
.......As I’ve outlined, a second referendum is just as much in the Brexiteers interests than the Remainers. Why let Brexit be held accountable to May’s deal?
Of course I see the benefits. Even the blind can see the benefits. But it isn't all good. And the blind can also see that.
We joined a trading block. It has become much more. And they want it to continue becoming much more. Even the countries leaders say the EU needs reform. But it isn't happening.
The EU looks like it could be heading for recession. It could bring us down with it. We are tied too tightly with it. It is a worry.
I don’t feel the same and I know loads who feel that a fresh refurrendum is needed to move the situation forward. Next step is the vote is taken to vote down may’s Deal. It looks like Parliament will then move to avoid a no deal. It’s not clear what happens then, probably something in the year the Eu have said things will stay the same. You’d like the Conservative party to say general election and for the country to decide based on what’s offered who they want to lead this year. More likely May should stand aside and say right you wanted to leave you need to work with the Eu to decide how to Johnson and Gove and the erg but they don’t have the support of the majority of the party so how on earth does that work??Likewise. Dunno who does these opinion polls, but everyone I speak to (whichever way they voted) still feel the same.
Which is exactly what I have been saying.We won't know for sure, you're right, but in the case of a no deal we can do a lot more than guess. And it doesn't look good.
I don't think there is any possible outcome that won't cause turmoil either politically or economically.
Still a lot of twists and turns to come.
The point of those voting for the referendum are at fault as much as those voting leave are at fault as much as each other?so my point stands, you're making a good case for a second referendum as this was one mans poor policy making.
I don't agree with your point and I don't agree with a second referendum.
Of course I see the benefits. Even the blind can see the benefits. But it isn't all good. And the blind can also see that.
We joined a trading block. It has become much more. And they want it to continue becoming much more. Even the countries leaders say the EU needs reform. But it isn't happening.
The EU looks like it could be heading for recession. It could bring us down with it. We are tied too tightly with it. It is a worry.
Yes having another referendum is about reversing the first one.You asked me if I was willing to overturn a democratic vote with another, I said yes. That has been established and an increasing amount of others want to have the final day on a Brexit deal. It’s not about reversing the original referendum.
Is May’s deal what you and most Leavers voted for? No. Do you want May’s deal to be ratified? From what I gather, no. Voters did not vote for no-deal.
Personally, you should focus on the positives of a second referendum for Brexiteers.
The point of those voting for the referendum are at fault as much as those voting leave are at fault as much as each other?
For a major change it’s usually 2/3 isn’t it? I get annoyed by the will of the people mantra and can see why this level of support either way is important to make major changes. I think a refurrendum should be once in a generation. This was an abdication of responsibility for me. Our elected representatives are paid to consider and then make decisions.Yes having another referendum is about reversing the first one.
I didn't vote leave. The question was leave or remain. Or would you like to point out where it was put forward differently.
So what are the positives on another referendum? You haven't made one comment to the points I made on the difficulties it would create.
Best of how many referendums?
Keep having referendums until there is a big enough majority either way?
Keep having referendums until we get a remain result?
If we had another referendum and it ended up 52% remain would that be the end of it?
Yep absurdThe notion Brexiteers would want another referendum which includes an option to remain is an absurd one.
Pressure? It was a vote winning miscalculation by Cameron.There was no pressure on Cameron? People had been carefully building an anti EU sentiment for decades causing huge division in the Tory party! He called the vote due to this and the fact they were losing voters to UKIP.
I’m not making excuses, just stating facts. I’m sure Cameron is still kicking himself but the Brexiters and the public who voted leave have to take responsibility too.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I have asked repeatedly on this thread for someone to spell out the potential economic benefits of leaving the EU, no one has come back with anything that make sense.
I'm sure eventually we will get things back on an even keel but how long and at what cost?
The vultures will be hovering next year, (Trump, Bolnasaro etc,), I don't see it ending well.
I think you need to check the latest numbers. They are nothing like the EU told us they would be. Not a surprise though. But many EU countries are struggling. We have had yet another month of record employment.Why do you think the EU is heading for a recession?
I think it’s highly likely there will be a world wide recession this year but I suspect it will be worse for the U.K. than the EU as our growth has already slowed significantly and were wasting money trying to get out of the worlds biggest trading bloc with no plan what to do after.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
For a major change it’s usually 2/3 isn’t it? I get annoyed by the will of the people mantra and can see why this level of support either way is important to make major changes. I think a refurrendum should be once in a generation. This was an abdication of responsibility for me. Our elected representatives are paid to consider and then make decisions.
I almost feel like stopping any discussion until parliament has voted agianst the deal and then we will know a bit more
What I think is true is it’s May’s deal or no deal at this stage.
Plenty of twists and turns ahead.I don’t feel the same and I know loads who feel that a fresh refurrendum is needed to move the situation forward. Next step is the vote is taken to vote down may’s Deal. It looks like Parliament will then move to avoid a no deal. It’s not clear what happens then, probably something in the year the Eu have said things will stay the same. You’d like the Conservative party to say general election and for the country to decide based on what’s offered who they want to lead this year. More likely May should stand aside and say right you wanted to leave you need to work with the Eu to decide how to Johnson and Gove and the erg but they don’t have the support of the majority of the party so how on earth does that work??
As someone said twists and turns ahead
I take a look at what you say and straight away wonder why I bothered.The EU reforms that the governments are talking about are a fiscal union and a defence force. No one wants to end FOM as you would like.
The UK is virtually definitely going to take a bigger hit because of Brexit. And you are worried about the EU?
Yes having another referendum is about reversing the first one.
I didn't vote leave. The question was leave or remain. Or would you like to point out where it was put forward differently.
So what are the positives on another referendum? You haven't made one comment to the points I made on the difficulties it would create.
Best of how many referendums?
Keep having referendums until there is a big enough majority either way?
Keep having referendums until we get a remain result?
If we had another referendum and it ended up 52% remain would that be the end of it?
The thing is the May deal or no deal isn't as important as many like to make out.For a major change it’s usually 2/3 isn’t it? I get annoyed by the will of the people mantra and can see why this level of support either way is important to make major changes. I think a refurrendum should be once in a generation. This was an abdication of responsibility for me. Our elected representatives are paid to consider and then make decisions.
I almost feel like stopping any discussion until parliament has voted agianst the deal and then we will know a bit more
What I think is true is it’s May’s deal or no deal at this stage.
Richest trading block?I don’t think we will ever again have the negotiating power with other countries or the influence in Europe that we have at the moment. We had to give up our empire and now we are withdrawing from the wealthiest and largest trading block in the world because a portion of the population doesn’t like the EU. Another step downwards.
If polls are accurate, Remain would win comfortably, about 64% if May’s deal is rejected.
How do you know remain would even win? The polls said remain would win comfortably first time. Now you say at least 64%. That certainly isn't the case.I’ve answered most of these questions in previous posts, but for your benefit.
The case for a second referendum is about deferring the decision to the electorate again because of the current dissatisfaction with May’s deal and the deadlock in parliament. It is entirely possible Leave wine again.
It’s not the case of ‘best of...’ referendums, but political contexts change which creates the demand for referendums. In this scenario, Brexit is a mess and the public should have the opportunity to have a final say. Down the line, if Brexit goes badly, there will be an appetite to rejoin the EU. Likewise, if it was reversed, a resurgent eurosceptic movement may demand another Brexit referendum down the line. I’ll say it again explicitly, this issue will not go away regardless of whether or not we go through with Brexit.
Carrying on in that vain, super majorities, say, 55%+ may have been a good idea in 2016, but to contest another referendum with that rule is problematic in the event Remain won but below that threshold. If polls are accurate, Remain would win comfortably, about 64% if May’s deal is rejected.
How do you know remain would even win? The polls said remain would win comfortably first time. Now you say at least 64%. That certainly isn't the case.
How do you know remain would even win? The polls said remain would win comfortably first time. Now you say at least 64%. That certainly isn't the case.
He’s manipulating data Stalin style
The backstop means everything stays the same until we leave. Nothing changes at all until we decide to leave ant the EU decides to let us leave. That is why the leavers don't want it at all. It would mean that we sign away our right to leave unless the EU says we could leave.Yep, agreed. It should have had some kind of margin in it, bizarre that it didn’t (I don’t think Scottish independence vote had it either) but we are where we are.
Also agree that ‘the will the people’ is nonsense on so many levels as people for Remain and Leave for various different reasons, not all of which could be addressed in either scenario. Remain (not wanting change, enjoying the freedom of movement in the EU, fear). Leave (sovereignty, stopping freedom of movement, believeing their was a bigger/wider world to focus on) to name a few.
I was reading again about Mays deal and if my understanding is correct if we move into the backstop we continue to have access to the EU market with no quotas and not having to pay anything or accepting freedom of movement. If people cut out the noise around it I believe most of the public would go for that as a very worst case scenrio (until a trade deal was agreed and Irish border issue is resolved, which surely it will through technology in due course)
I don’t like the fact that we may have to accept new EU rules/laws without having a say whilst we are in it or the issues caused in relation to the union. However, let’s be honest, if the above is true there is little incentive in the EU allowing us to stay in the backstop for longer than necessary unless they introduced laws to intentionally damage the UK (extremely unlikely but if they did you breach the backstop unilaterally, argue your case and accept the consequences - undesirable but wouldn’t ever be necessary as mentioned above). If anything we might want to use it as leverage ourselves and stay in it until we finalise trade agreements which won’t be quick.
Read your own link properly.I’m not a pollster, but here are their findings.
‘If Ms May’s deal is voted down by MPs, that gap widened to 64 per cent to 36 per cent, excluding don’t knows.’
Brexit poll shows voters back second referendum as Remain takes big lead over Leave
I’m not a pollster, but here are their findings.
‘If Ms May’s deal is voted down by MPs, that gap widened to 64 per cent to 36 per cent, excluding don’t knows.’
Brexit poll shows voters back second referendum as Remain takes big lead over Leave
The backstop means everything stays the same until we leave. Nothing changes at all until we decide to leave ant the EU decides to let us leave. That is why the leavers don't want it at all. It would mean that we sign away our right to leave unless the EU says we could leave.
But remainers don't want it either as it means we have left although would remain until the EU says we could leave.
Isn't it amazing how differently two sides can see the same thing.
Agree with all other than payments to the EU. We will continue to pay into the EU until 2020 at least until the end of the transition period. This is backstop or no backstop. We had agreed to the EU budget until 2020 anyway so we're liable as such.Because both sides are too entrenched in their view and neither will consider any compromise !
As I’ve read it, we don’t contribute to the EU if we’re in the backstop and don’t have to accept freedom of movement (and also out of the common fisheries policy). That’s not quite the same as we are !
I’d imagine that would cover a fair few leave voters (not all by any stretch) reasons for leaving even though this is only the withdrawal agreement (not final position).
Ps this is what annoys me about the whole thing, people are so entrenched in their views they will listen to the noise on either side rather looking at the detail
Exactly like the: 'if you're not sure, just vote remain. You can always vote to leave next time'.
It's total nonsense and the public are smarter than you think when it comes to believing polls (remember last time). Certainly anything published by The Independent can hardly be trusted either really can it? It's just constant remainer rhetoric.
I literally haven't met a single leave voter who has changed their mind. A select bunch or remainers trying to call for a second vote just looks nothing other than childish.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?