The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (182 Viewers)

[Otis]

Do you think May really wants to take us out of the EU Otis?

I have had this doubt for a long time. She only aims to take the path which is already blocked. She has used delay tactics to run the clock down knowing that most MP's will do what they can to stop us leaving without a deal. And she has said from the start that she will give up her position of PM as soon as Brexit is over. So she wasn't expecting a good end to the situation.

To me the next thing that will happen is the leave date of March will be extended. Leave without a deal will still be on the table. And we will end up with close ties to the EU remaining.

The irony is that if it happens it will be what nobody at all voted for.

No, I don't think she does. I get this feeling she wants to come across as the peoples champion and If it does happen, go down in the history books as the PM who brought about a new dawn.

 

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[Otis]

And why have successive Brexit Secretaries not suggested them?!?

The vote against a no deal was closer than I'd like. Frightening, really.

Yeah, said the same to my wife. Wasn't expecting that level of opposition to the amendment.

 

[Astute]

I only listened to about 5 mins all told of the debate and that question was asked numerous times. What are the alternative arrangements? And no one had an answer.

This scenario fits astutes she doesn’t wanna leavie and gives May the opportunity to say she listened to Parliament even though she didn’t suggest it.

It gives the mail and express the opportunity to blame the Eu when they say and what does alternative arrangement mean ?

Does someone have an answer or solution?

Solution?

Yes. What I have thought would happen for ages. What we have seemed to be going towards for ages. Leave the EU in name but tied to the EU in another way. Still pay billions of pounds each year. Freedom of movement to continue. EU rules and regulations to continue in the UK so movement of goods continue as they are now.

The only thing that makes me unsure is we wouldn't be able to make our own trade agreements and be able to keep movement of goods as they are now. So this could change.

 

[Astute]

No, I don't think she does. I get this feeling she wants to come across as the peoples champion and If it does happen, go down in the history books as the PM who brought about a new dawn.

Even simpler to me. She doesn't want us to leave but doesn't want to go against what the majority voted for. But she also wants to keep the rest happy. There is no majority for leave or remain if you take into account those still unsure.

So Corbyn will have to back down if he still wants a chance of becoming MP. Because IMO May has played the game well.

 

[Otis]

Even simpler to me. She doesn't want us to leave but doesn't want to go against what the majority voted for. But she also wants to keep the rest happy. There is no majority for leave or remain if you take into account those still unsure.

So Corbyn will have to back down if he still wants a chance of becoming MP. Because IMO May has played the game well.

I don't think Corbyn has any chance of becoming the new PM anyway.

 

[Astute]

I don't think Corbyn has any chance of becoming the new PM anyway.

Have said all along I can't see him being PM. Too many skeletons in the closet. No charisma. Nobody even knows what he wants with Brexit.

I can't even think of anyone from the Tories or Labour who would make a good PM though.

The one big problem I can see is this Farage Brexit party causing even more diversion when we don't leave the EU in March.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Voted for what?

They voted to remain in the EU. But we would be leaving the EU but to be tied to the EU in another way. Those who voted leave didn't vote to be tied to the EU after leaving.

So it would be the best result all round but not the result anyone voted for.

Got ya

 

[Ian1779]

Even simpler to me. She doesn't want us to leave but doesn't want to go against what the majority voted for. But she also wants to keep the rest happy. There is no majority for leave or remain if you take into account those still unsure.

So Corbyn will have to back down if he still wants a chance of becoming MP. Because IMO May has played the game well.

The inability of her and her government to run this country properly outside of the 'Brexit bubble' will be her downfall.

Only for so long can she carry on in the pretence that she has played a good game whilst the rest of the country burns through welfare cuts, public spending cuts and austerity.

 

[Astute]

The inability of her and her government to run this country properly outside of the 'Brexit bubble' will be her downfall.

Only for so long can she carry on in the pretence that she has played a good game whilst the rest of the country burns through welfare cuts, public spending cuts and austerity.

If what she has said......She won't stay in place after this crap is all finished......She won't care about her downfall as there won't be one that can happen. New PM new start. But Labour won't have a high ground on the subject as they are also split on the subject and so are the voting public. But May will be seen as trying to give what the leave voters wanted yet will have given the remain voters what they wanted. Ties remaining to the EU.

As usual it isn't as black and white as many people think it is.

 

[Otis]

If what she has said......She won't stay in place after this crap is all finished......She won't care about her downfall as there won't be one that can happen. New PM new start. But Labour won't have a high ground on the subject as they are also split on the subject and so are the voting public. But May will be seen as trying to give what the leave voters wanted yet will have given the remain voters what they wanted. Ties remaining to the EU.

As usual it isn't as black and white as many people think it is.

Cue the phoenix club thread.

 

[Ian1779]

If what she has said......She won't stay in place after this crap is all finished......She won't care about her downfall as there won't be one that can happen. New PM new start. But Labour won't have a high ground on the subject as they are also split on the subject and so are the voting public. But May will be seen as trying to give what the leave voters wanted yet will have given the remain voters what they wanted. Ties remaining to the EU.

As usual it isn't as black and white as many people think it is.

I should have clarified... it will be the governments downfall.

 

[Ian1779]

If what she has said......She won't stay in place after this crap is all finished......She won't care about her downfall as there won't be one that can happen. New PM new start. But Labour won't have a high ground on the subject as they are also split on the subject and so are the voting public. But May will be seen as trying to give what the leave voters wanted yet will have given the remain voters what they wanted. Ties remaining to the EU.

As usual it isn't as black and white as many people think it is.

Labour aren't split on austerity - neither are the public as a whole, unless you are referring to the haves/have nots.

 

[Astute]

I should have clarified... it will be the governments downfall.

Labour aren't split on austerity - neither are the public as a whole, unless you are referring to the haves/have nots.

So the next GE will be settled on austerity and nothing else?

A lot of the UK is doing OK to well. They personally have more important things than austerity measures. And a lot of those who austerity measures are a big thing for normally vote Labour anyway. And the last Labour government continued with the austerity measures put in place by the Tories.

Many would want a Labour leader they could trust. They don't want another Bliar. Do you think they would trust Corbyn?

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

After those indicative votes in Parliament last night, the EU is still refusing to reopen negotiations. Have said reopening negotiations could ‘backfire’ with Gibraltar, fisheries and the Divorce Bill would be opener too. An MEP said that a no deal Brexit was a ‘lesser of two evils’ when it came to potentially dropping the Irish backstop. The EU have set a contingency plan where Britain continues to pay into the EU budget in the event of a no deal Brexit (the deadline set deliberately after the 29/3).

Co’mon now, are we really sure this is not a monty python sketch?

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

So the next GE will be settled on austerity and nothing else?

A lot of the UK is doing OK to well. They personally have more important things than austerity measures. And a lot of those who austerity measures are a big thing for normally vote Labour anyway. And the last Labour government continued with the austerity measures put in place by the Tories.

Many would want a Labour leader they could trust. They don't want another Bliar. Do you think they would trust Corbyn?

Theresa May made the 2017 election about Brexit, look what happened. Labour’s Brexit policy was totally flawed and lacked coherence: access to single market, but ending freedom of movement wasn’t going to happen. It didn’t matter because they weren’t going to win, and needed to appease their metropolitan city voters and their working-class constituencies that voted leave.

I weren’t born then, but Ted Heath also framed the 1974 election over a single issue and lost that election. Generally, it’s not a good idea to have an election over a single issue.

 

[Ian1779]

So the next GE will be settled on austerity and nothing else?

A lot of the UK is doing OK to well. They personally have more important things than austerity measures. And a lot of those who austerity measures are a big thing for normally vote Labour anyway. And the last Labour government continued with the austerity measures put in place by the Tories.

Many would want a Labour leader they could trust. They don't want another Bliar. Do you think they would trust Corbyn?

Comparing Corbyn to Blair is laughable. Blair was a continuation of the Tories, and people can clearly see the distinction between Labour in 1997-2010 and Labour now.

You say a lot of the UK is doing well - yet every credible research or study has concluded that nearly every measure of prosperity is declining. Unless of course you count the increase of millionaires as a measure of success.

What exactly would people not trust Corbyn outside of the fact he may not strike back if we get nuked, or he might want to suggest that Israel doesn't have the right to wipe Palestine out of existence. He may have what is perceived as baggage from his past, but I would suggest that trying to negotiate with the IRA to ultimately lead to peace is far less questionable than the current PM who thought it appropriate to implement project 'hostile environment' or maybe even as suggested (not proven) 'covered up evidence of systemic child abuse when she was Home Secretary'.

 

[Grendel]

I

Theresa May made the 2017 election about Brexit, look what happened. Labour’s Brexit policy was totally flawed and lacked coherence: access to single market, but ending freedom of movement wasn’t going to happen. It didn’t matter because they weren’t going to win, and needed to appease their metropolitan city voters and their working-class constituencies that voted leave.

I weren’t born then, but Ted Heath also framed the 1974 election over a single issue and lost that election. Generally, it’s not a good idea to have an election over a single issue.

The 1974 election was fought on what single issue?

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

The 1974 election was fought on what single issue?

Ted Heath’s famous ‘who governs Britain?’ ring any bells for you?

 

[chiefdave]

With no sense of irony had someone at work today saying the Spelman amendment (that we can't crash out with no deal) can be ignored as it was only advisory, not legally binding and only won by a narrow margin.

 

[Johnnythespider]

I


The 1974 election was fought on what single issue?

Germany winning the world cup again

 

[Grendel]

Ted Heath’s famous ‘who governs Britain?’ ring any bells for you?

Wow. Heath had no real option but to go when he did as the economy was collapsing all over the place. Given he was never popular he didn’t even do that badly and the comparison is not valid as the 74 election saw on uncharacteristic number voting liberal against the Tories

 

[Captain Dart]

and everyone was pissed off by the power cuts and 3 day week (my Dad certainly was) and wanted a change hoping for better so a lot of people voted Labour.

Actually the Tories got more votes than Labour in both 1974 elections but the boundaries didn't help them.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Wow. Heath had no real option but to go when he did as the economy was collapsing all over the place. Given he was never popular he didn’t even do that badly and the comparison is not valid as the 74 election saw on uncharacteristic number voting liberal against the Tories

He didn’t have to call an election, the Conservatives had a majority and an election wasn’t due for 18 months. It’s pretty clear that he called an election to strengthen his position against the trade unions (as union militancy was getting way out of control). Just as May sought to strengthen her position against the EU and neither election had the desired effect. Academics have been compared the two because the circumstances were pretty similar.

 

[Grendel]

He didn’t have to call an election, the Conservatives had a majority and an election wasn’t due for 18 months. It’s pretty clear that he called an election to strengthen his position against the trade unions (as union militancy was getting way out of control). Just as May sought to strengthen her position against the EU and neither election had the desired effect. Academics have been compared the two because the circumstances were pretty similar.

I disagree for the reasons stated above

 

[Grendel]

I now realise what the similarity is -- how ironic

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I now realise what the similarity is -- how ironic

What would that be?

 

[Grendel]

What would that be?

You work it out - after all you are the expert

 

[Astute]

Comparing Corbyn to Blair is laughable. Blair was a continuation of the Tories, and people can clearly see the distinction between Labour in 1997-2010 and Labour now.

You say a lot of the UK is doing well - yet every credible research or study has concluded that nearly every measure of prosperity is declining. Unless of course you count the increase of millionaires as a measure of success.

What exactly would people not trust Corbyn outside of the fact he may not strike back if we get nuked, or he might want to suggest that Israel doesn't have the right to wipe Palestine out of existence. He may have what is perceived as baggage from his past, but I would suggest that trying to negotiate with the IRA to ultimately lead to peace is far less questionable than the current PM who thought it appropriate to implement project 'hostile environment' or maybe even as suggested (not proven) 'covered up evidence of systemic child abuse when she was Home Secretary'.

Do you see Corbyn as being PM material?

So how have I compared the two other than saying I don't trust Corbyn like I didn't trust Bliar?

This thread is nothing but people having an agenda. It is a joke. IMHO Corbyn would be a disaster.

 

[Sick Boy]

This thread is nothing but people having an agenda. It is a joke. IMHO Corbyn would be a disaster.

...and presumably you’re a voice in impartiality in all of this?

 

[Astute]

...and presumably you’re a voice in impartiality in all of this?

How often do you have a go at all sides?

I do. But when I have a go at certain people/organisations there is yourself and the same other people all the time that defend them. And then you have the nerve to call me biased.

So you have a point to prove? List those I haven't had a go at or those I have had a go at more than others unless people like yourself have started an argument over them because they don't like the truth being told.

I just don't get it. You know the truth but don't want it said about the EU on a FOOTBALL forum. It isn't going to make the slightest difference to what happens next. The Spectator link definitely described you and others on here.

 

[Ian1779]

Do you see Corbyn as being PM material?

So how have I compared the two other than saying I don't trust Corbyn like I didn't trust Bliar?

This thread is nothing but people having an agenda. It is a joke. IMHO Corbyn would be a disaster.

I think he would be yes. It's about time that this country had a better chance for all, and someone was prepared to stand up to the people that treat this country as a vehicle for their own personal wealth and agenda.

Will he be successful... I don't know, but I hope he is, or at the very least someone with his ideas can take it on.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Amendment-apocalypse: Spineless MPs just voted against reality

Any leavers care to explain their thoughts? I agree completely with this standpoint.

 

[Otis]

Amendment-apocalypse: Spineless MPs just voted against reality

Any leavers care to explain their thoughts? I agree completely with this standpoint.

I just don't get how they were cheering on Tuesday like they had won some great victory.

 

[Sick Boy]

How often do you have a go at all sides?

I do. But when I have a go at certain people/organisations there is yourself and the same other people all the time that defend them. And then you have the nerve to call me biased.

So you have a point to prove? List those I haven't had a go at or those I have had a go at more than others unless people like yourself have started an argument over them because they don't like the truth being told.

I just don't get it. You know the truth but don't want it said about the EU on a FOOTBALL forum. It isn't going to make the slightest difference to what happens next. The Spectator link definitely described you and others on here.

You get called out because you only ever have a go at one side, and you're not impartial in doing so whatsoever.

Personally I am always suspicious of anyone who attempts to portay themselves as impartial on such a matter.

 

[Nick]

I do love the words used.

Apocalypse!