The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (9 Viewers)

[chiefdave]

Schultz isn't in power in Germany let alone dictating to the EU. He may want it but for it to happen every country will have to agree. If we had remained in Europe then we could have blocked any United States of Europe. As we're leaving what's it got to do with us what they do in the future?

 

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[martcov]

No what frustrates me is it gets denyed on here and it’s obvious. They want an eu army as well. One currency. One border. One superstate to quote Schulz. As you say that’s fine and people like Mart champion this but don’t deny it.

Proof a vote for remain wasn’t for the status quo.

No. Proof that, had we waited, we would have had a justification for holding a referendum. As it is we’re out and Schultz wants the EU to move forward without us. He won’t necessarily get what he wants, but we would have been given a clear question and would not be alone in making our decision, should it ever happen. Anyway it is a proposal from a junior coalition partner in one EU country.

 

[Captain Dart]

Or, tha


Or, that different countries have different procedures of ratification.

Yes deliberately, sorry if my point went over your head.

 

[martcov]

So I've read. It was a comment in a Dutch newspaper article, I don't know the details.

I know that after the vote to reject Ukraine associate membership of the EU the Dutch government passed a totally bogus piece of legislation which effectively nullified the result of the referendum.

Have they or haven’t they?

 

[martcov]

Yes deliberately, sorry if my point went over your head.

Really? Do you have a link? Not a National Socialist link please.

 

[Kingokings204]

Schultz isn't in power in Germany let alone dictating to the EU. He may want it but for it to happen every country will have to agree. If we had remained in Europe then we could have blocked any United States of Europe. As we're leaving what's it got to do with us what they do in the future?

Ah the classic veto line. It wouldn’t of made a jot of difference and you know it or I hope you do. The Eu rebadged the Lisbon treaty and got it though.

The cat is well and truely our the bag now. This was the plan all along

 

[Kingokings204]

Great. You won’t be invited to the party. All members will be given the choice. Like it or leave it. If they are up for it. Fine. If not also fine by me. What is your problem?

No I havent got one. I get annoyed when it was denyed on here that’s all. Labour mps were right back in 1975. This was the plan all along for a European superstate. If you believe in that like you do then fine you have my respect but I don’t believe in it.

Thank goodness we are leaving is all I can say.

 

[dutchman]

Have they or haven’t they?

It depends how you define it I suppose.

 

[martcov]

Ah the classic veto line. It wouldn’t of made a jot of difference and you know it or I hope you do. The Eu rebadged the Lisbon treaty and got it though.

The cat is well and truely our the bag now. This was the plan all along

He has said that all countries will be asked if they will accept majority voting. If they don’t they have to leave. It is the only way forward because of the reasons such as Astute’s point that one country the size of a city can block the whole EU with a veto. So, when the question is put to the members, they are not forced to accept it. If there is a cat, it is that you, Astute, and others are against the EU whatever happens, even if they try and take care of Astute’s own criticism. But, leavers, your opinion doesn’t matter a fxxk. You are leaving and sailing into a glorious sunset..... allbeit withou a plan/ seachart or a clue where you are heading to. Maybe Captain May can control her motley crew and save the ship, but judging by the calibre of the crew, I think you’re going to hit the rocks sooner rather than later.

 

[martcov]

No I havent got one. I get annoyed when it was denyed on here that’s all. Labour mps were right back in 1975. This was the plan all along for a European superstate. If you believe in that like you do then fine you have my respect but I don’t believe in it.

Thank goodness we are leaving is all I can say.

Well yes. But, it is only Schultz. The coalition has not been agreed yet, and may not even happen. The 26 other interested parties, i.e. the member countries, have not had a chance to air their views. You are jumping up and down for no reason. I would like to see what exactly is proposed and what the others are prepared to accept. Seems a more sensible approach.

 

[dutchman]

Great. You won’t be invited to the party. All members will be given the choice.

The member states' governments will be given a choice, the member states' voters will not necessarily be given one.

 

[martcov]

The member states' governments will be given a choice, the member states' voters will not necessarily be given one.

Good. They elected their parliament. It’s parliament’s job to look after their interests. Look what happened with our referendum. A total and utter mess. Completely planless. Pity parliament didn’t debate the case for and against based on evidence. Then we could elect a new government if they got it wrong. If 17,4 million people have made a mistake, we don’t have any recourse.

 

[SIR ERNIE]

Well yes. But, it is only Schultz. The coalition has not been agreed yet, and may not even happen. The 26 other interested parties, i.e. the member countries, have not had a chance to air their views. You are jumping up and down for no reason. I would like to see what exactly is proposed and what the others are prepared to accept. Seems a more sensible approach.

Interesting, I’ve noticed this repeatedly with you. Whenever the subject is Germany/EU it’s always ‘let’s wait and see what happens’ or in this case ‘I would like to see what exactly is proposed and what the others are prepared to accept. Seems a more sensible approach’

Whereas when it’s UK/EU/Brexit, you have the ability to confidently predict and forecast with absolute certainty that the inevitable outcome post March 2019 will be disastrous.

Strange that.

Anyone might think you were a sore loser.

 

[SIR ERNIE]

Good. They elected their parliament. It’s parliament’s job to look after their interests. Look what happened with our referendum. A total and utter mess. Completely planless. Pity parliament didn’t debate the case for and against based on evidence. Then we could elect a new government if they got it wrong. If 17,4 million people have made a mistake, we don’t have any recourse.

The thing you don’t get is that the people directly responsible for the narrow leave vote were your heroes Juncker and Tusk. Their arrogant refusal to give Cameron anything substantial to bring back to the pre--referendum electorate gave the Leave campaign just the evidence they needed to demonstrate that ‘leave’ was the way to go.

Any kind of gesture would have more than wiped out that narrow 4% winning margin but instead the two bumbling fools just stuck two fingers up to the UK.

 

[martcov]

Interesting, I’ve noticed this repeatedly with you. Whenever the subject is Germany/EU it’s always ‘let’s wait and see what happens’ or in this case ‘I would like to see what exactly is proposed and what the others are prepared to accept. Seems a more sensible approach’

Whereas when it’s UK/EU/Brexit, you have the ability to confidently predict and forecast with absolute certainty that the inevitable outcome post March 2019 will be disastrous.

Strange that.

Anyone might think you were a sore loser.

No. Brexit is Brexit and is happening. Schultz does not hold any position in the EU or German government. He has put forward a proposal to his party and their annual conference. He is not the EU. He is not in government. So, wait and see is the sensible thing to do.

I predicted a screw up with Brexit and problems with GFA and the border question. That was obvious after the vote. I did not say much before the vote. I waited and I saw. Then I had something to say. If this, whatever the exact detail is, gets accepted and looks like it will happen then I can have an opinion as to what will happen.

Until then let’s see how far it goes. I am in favour of radical reform, but tbf I don’t know all the details.

 

[martcov]

The thing you don’t get is that the people directly responsible for the narrow leave vote were your heroes Juncker and Tusk. Their arrogant refusal to give Cameron anything substantial to bring back to the pre--referendum electorate gave the Leave campaign just the evidence they needed to demonstrate that ‘leave’ was the way to go.

Any kind of gesture would have more than wiped out that narrow 4% winning margin but instead the two bumbling fools just stuck two fingers up to the UK.

Well you may be right on that point. There should have been more negotiations and not just the UK asking for change. Cameron put himself under a time frame and was asking for things for the UK and no one else. There is no way the EU was going to bend yet again ( after the Thatcher rebate, Schengen opt out and Euro opt out ). Yes, I would have preferred some concession, if only limited for a few years to ease the pressure on the UK. We are leaving on, what is for many, a one issue reason. Immigration. We will regret it- imo.

 

[clint van damme]

Why would I need to? The left constantly panders to Islam as they are a minorty, completely disregarding that it is largely a medieval belief system.

There are some right wing nut jobs, but they are generally isolated lone wolves to be honest. I hate them too.

You are right both groups are facists, but the Islamists are far more dangerous and in much greater numbers.

so the "left" is why we have Islamofascism and not the west giving the green light to the Sauds to spread Wahhabism as long as they keep the oil flowing?! The seeds for this shit were sown long ago, all me and the others on the "left" are saying is don't tar everyone, (e.g. my Muslim neighbours with the same brush).

 

[skybluetony176]

Ah the classic veto line. It wouldn’t of made a jot of difference and you know it or I hope you do. The Eu rebadged the Lisbon treaty and got it though.

The cat is well and truely our the bag now. This was the plan all along

I’m thinking you don’t understand how the veto works.

 

[Astute]

Martin Schulz calls for ‘United States of Europe’ German SPD leader says EU member states must sign up to a federal union or leave the bloc Allies of Martin Schulz say his Social Democratic party would have fared better in September if he had made his EU reform proposals then © AFP Share on Twitter (opens new window) Share on Facebook (opens new window) Share on LinkedIn (opens new window) Share on Whatsapp (opens new window) Save

He has said that all countries will be asked if they will accept majority voting. If they don’t they have to leave. It is the only way forward because of the reasons such as Astute’s point that one country the size of a city can block the whole EU with a veto. So, when the question is put to the members, they are not forced to accept it. If there is a cat, it is that you, Astute, and others are against the EU whatever happens, even if they try and take care of Astute’s own criticism. But, leavers, your opinion doesn’t matter a fxxk. You are leaving and sailing into a glorious sunset..... allbeit withou a plan/ seachart or a clue where you are heading to. Maybe Captain May can control her motley crew and save the ship, but judging by the calibre of the crew, I think you’re going to hit the rocks sooner rather than later.

And now the truth is out in the open many more that were having doubts that voted leave will know they are right.

 

[Astute]

I’m thinking you don’t understand how the veto works.

If you want to keep the veto you are out of the EU.

 

[Kingokings204]

I’m thinking you don’t understand how the veto works.

I understand fully how the veto works. I also understand how referendums work. The french and dutch had one of the constitution in 2005 and the EU rebadged it the Lisbon treaty on a carbon copy and got it through regardless.

Our veto wouldn’t of made the blindest bit of difference if even we dared to use it. Surely you acknowledge that?

 

[martcov]

Martin Schulz calls for ‘United States of Europe’ German SPD leader says EU member states must sign up to a federal union or leave the bloc Allies of Martin Schulz say his Social Democratic party would have fared better in September if he had made his EU reform proposals then © AFP Share on Twitter (opens new window) Share on Facebook (opens new window) Share on LinkedIn (opens new window) Share on Whatsapp (opens new window) Save

And now the truth is out in the open many more that were having doubts that voted leave will know they are right.

No the truth is not out in the open. Can’t you read? Martin Schulz was the loser in the election. He has a chance to be in a coalition with Merkel ... only because the FDP dropped out. He isn’t in a coalition yet. His coalition partner hasn’t accepted his suggestion.. yet, or maybe it won’t. His party hasn’t accepted it yet. He is not in the EU. You are talking BS as per usual. Stop reading the Express. You are the biggest leaver on here and your general incapacity to understand your own posts must be embarrassing for you... if you actually notice that you don’t understand.

 

[skybluetony176]

I understand fully how the veto works. I also understand how referendums work. The french and dutch had one of the constitution in 2005 and the EU rebadged it the Lisbon treaty on a carbon copy and got it through regardless.

Our veto wouldn’t of made the blindest bit of difference if even we dared to use it. Surely you acknowledge that?

Again. I’m not sure you know how the veto works.

 

[martcov]

I understand fully how the veto works. I also understand how referendums work. The french and dutch had one of the constitution in 2005 and the EU rebadged it the Lisbon treaty on a carbon copy and got it through regardless.

Our veto wouldn’t of made the blindest bit of difference if even we dared to use it. Surely you acknowledge that?

If Schultz gets his way... it is take it or leave it. If you don’t like it leave. It is not a veto in that sense, but an invitation to leave because of something you don’t like or want. Where is the problem?

 

[martcov]

If you want to keep the veto you are out of the EU.

Yes. Bingo. As you say, you cannot have a country the size of a city using it’s veto to block something everyone else wants. Rejoice. The SDP is on your wavelength.

 

[Kingokings204]

He has said that all countries will be asked if they will accept majority voting. If they don’t they have to leave. It is the only way forward because of the reasons such as Astute’s point that one country the size of a city can block the whole EU with a veto. So, when the question is put to the members, they are not forced to accept it. If there is a cat, it is that you, Astute, and others are against the EU whatever happens, even if they try and take care of Astute’s own criticism. But, leavers, your opinion doesn’t matter a fxxk. You are leaving and sailing into a glorious sunset..... allbeit withou a plan/ seachart or a clue where you are heading to. Maybe Captain May can control her motley crew and save the ship, but judging by the calibre of the crew, I think you’re going to hit the rocks sooner rather than later.

Schulz has made it clear as day and juncker did it 2 months ago, there is full steam ahead with EU superstate (his word) and everything that comes with that. Currency and army etc etc

Now, I have been blasted on here for saying the word superstate and the man about to become vice chancellor in Germany it saying it for goodness sake.

I have followed Schulz strangely for the last ten years indirectly and he is a very dangerous man. He calls everyone who disagrees with him a fascist (his word) and he hates to his fingertips free markets and the British. However I say all that but he is also very honest and I’ve known him to speak the truth. This guy means what he says. He is no nonsense type of character. He wants this and believes in it. It’s going to happen.

 

[Kingokings204]

Again. I’m not sure you know how the veto works.

Missed the point as usual.

The veto doesn’t make a difference to these people.

 

[Kingokings204]

If Schultz gets his way... it is take it or leave it. If you don’t like it leave. It is not a veto in that sense, but an invitation to leave because of something you don’t like or want. Where is the problem?

So why don’t we wait til 2025 and leave for free then?

The man is deadly serious with this as the others are but Schulz is the only one to have to balls to say the truth.

I will see how they let other countries “leave” so easily as you put it before I would say anything.

 

[martcov]

Are you really trying to tell me you are not left wing?

No he isn’t - from what he posts on here. Neither am I. I always thought I was centre right. I was in a moderate union, on the committee for Coventry and Warks, but I now own my own businesses. I have never voted labour. I always vote liberal. In Germany only in European and Municipal elections as I cannot vote in general elections. You are very right wing judging by the extreme right wing links that you post on here. I criticise them and point out that the people behind them are manipulating you. You then think that I am a lefty pandering to Muslims and justifying gang rape. To call me, a small business man a lefty, you are confirming how very right wing you are. I cannot think what you would classify a real lefty as. You need to read more varied sources to get a balance.

 

[martcov]

Missed the point as usual.

The veto doesn’t make a difference to these people.

Which people? The EU? We are in the EU. That means us as well as 27 others.

 

[martcov]

So why don’t we wait til 2025 and leave for free then?

The man is deadly serious with this as the others are but Schulz is the only one to have to balls to say the truth.

I will see how they let other countries “leave” so easily as you put it before I would say anything.

I am pleased that Schulz has made this suggestion. We have to end the veto on some, but not all, things to progress. It is in everyone’s interest as Astute has pointed out.

Whether the man is deadly serious or not is not the point. He has absolutely no power at the moment. If he joins the coalition and, if, Merkel takes that on board, he still has to convince 26 other countries that it is to their benefit.

As regarding waiting until 2025. Yes, that would have been the clever thing to do. Let the EU give you the choice, take it or leave it. But, neither the referendum nor the leavers were clever.

 

[Kingokings204]

Which people? The EU? We are in the EU. That means us as well as 27 others.

Yes the EU. My point when going off about referendums also is the EU haven’t listened to them. They ignore them and press on. As juncker says “when things get serious you have to lie”

Also another 15 months and we will be gone. So it is then 27.

Also as stated if the EU had listened to our concerns when Cameron went there for some concessions he was treated like a fool. If they gave him some immigration concessions as you suggested yourself then remain would of probably won yes I agree.

 

[martcov]

Yes the EU. My point when going off about referendums also is the EU haven’t listened to them. They ignore them and press on. As juncker says “when things get serious you have to lie”

Also another 15 months and we will be gone. So it is then 27.

I was talking of the present “people” as you were referring to past events... I presume. He is proposing a choice on a specific proposal. It is not leave or remain where nobody knows what they are really voting for. We have never had such an open choice. This is the real thing. Democracy throughout Europe. Majority decisions by countries in the EU. But, once again, Schultz is not the EU. He is not even in the EU in any form.

 

[Kingokings204]

I was talking of the present “people” as you were referring to past events... I presume. He is proposing a choice on a specific proposal. It is not leave or remain where nobody knows what they are really voting for. We have never had such an open choice. This is the real thing. Democracy throughout Europe. Majority decisions by countries in the EU. But, once again, Schultz is not the EU. He is not even in the EU in any form.

No but he is 95% sure going to be vice chancellor of the biggest country in the EU and he has been in the European Parliament for over 20 years with 5 of those years serving as the president of the parliament itself having two terms as president at that.

He has form and he has the creditionals. (See above) He is an EU fanatic.

Why are you playing him down?

 

[martcov]

No but he is 95% sure going to be vice chancellor of the biggest country in the EU and he has been in the European Parliament for over 20 years with 5 of those years serving as the president of the parliament itself having two terms as president at that.

He has form and he has the creditionals. (See above) He is an EU fanatic.

Why are you playing him down?

Because there is a long way to go. Some on here are hoping that Merkel is finished, which would mean there is no grand coalition. I think there will be, but it is not certain. He has form as you say, but he has to convince Merkel to take this as a coalition pre condition. No guarantee. Even then, he has to convince enough of the 26 to ensure that the EU continues. I hope he succeeds, at least on majority voting. But, it is far from sure.