Grendel
Well-Known Member
I fail to see what focus on the grand national has to do with vegetarianism
The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter jimmyhillsfanclub
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I fail to see what focus on the grand national has to do with vegetarianism
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
You say it is cruel, causes unnecessary suffering that often results in death. I know you particularly like horses but should that anger not extend to the death of all other animals? Mass production of animals for human consumption is both unnatural and cruel.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Correct.
Are you a meat eater? If so those animals are killed for you to eat. At least in the UK the vast majority are killed as humanely as possible without long suffering.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
That’s general animal cruelty. We’re talking specifically about farming practices. Can you stay on subject please.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Revealed: exported EU animals subject to abuse and illegal conditions
UK pig farmers losing out as EU 'fails to enforce' welfare rules
Hidden animal cruelty in Italian buffalo farms providing mozzarella to UK supermarkets
://www.jeanlambertmep.org.uk/2014/03/24/mep-calls-for-eu-investigation-into-pig-farm-cruelty/
Analysis of the Hidden Cost of the German Meat Industry - SPIEGEL ONLINE
Animal cruelty: is violence inherent to abattoirs?
How much would you like?
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
And for all of the articles you've posted there are also equivalents for cruelty in the UK.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
I discussed this earlier in the thread. There's been numerous instances of cruelty highlighted in the UK, yet you've tried to turn it into cheap political point scoring. Nice.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Why do you have to defend the EU all the time?
How about the pig one where it specifically says that the rest of the EU do not keep up with the UK. Or that we brought in the rules in the 90's that the EU haven't caught up with yet?
Yes nothing is perfect here. But just be impartial for once. Tony asked for links. He has got them. The vast majority in the UK keep up with the rules. We had them well before the EU. Although for religious reasons not all have to keep to them......
Astute
Well-Known Member
No. Tony wanted proof. Tony got proof. You defended it as it happens in the EU.
It shouldn't happen anywhere. Why should it become a stupid Brexit thing?
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
They had to install cctv cameras in UK slaughter houses to ensure that cruelty and suffering was not taking place.
All countries still having battery farming, which should absolutely be banned. Most people don't really bother to think where their meat comes from.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
It's not a Brexit thing, apart from we shouldn't be allowing chlorine washed chicken and hormone injected beef into our food chain.
Britain is still very much part of and has played a part in shaping it btw
Astute
Well-Known Member
So if we can install CCTV why can't the other EU countries?
Many people do know what goes on. And they say that they would pay extra for better reared meat. But when it comes to the price difference they change their minds.
Astute
Well-Known Member
We are a big part of it because we are ahead of the EU in a lot of it. But we will see comments about how animal welfare will suffer once we leave. Anything for another cheap shot.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
I suppose it's their choice? When you animals reared as commodities on a production line with low paid people working to tight schedules, what do you expect is going to happen?
The amount of meat eaten is too high across the West and is not sustainable in the long-term.
That's fair enough, I make sacrifices in other areas though to be able to buy decent meat as it's that important to me. These same people will pay £4/£5 for a drink though, so it's all about priorities.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Which exactly my point. We have a higher standard of welfare in the EU than America in farming and struggle to police it. If we lower the bar again to allow British farmers to compete with American farmers whose bar is much lower we aren’t going to all of a sudden become more proficient in policing it. It just means more will get away with an even lower standard again. Both legally and illegally farming standards of animal welfare will drop again. It’s a lowering of the bar and anyone claiming to be concerned with animal welfare shouldn’t be championing that. Yet...
Astute
Well-Known Member
But as I said the UK is ahead of a lot of the EU on animal welfare. Their choice? It wasn't the pig farmers choice here.
I agree on meat quality. Everything we eat is free range from farms in the lake district. It is double the price of what you can pay. But worth every penny.
At the start of this post you mentioned low paid workers. Then you say you make sacrifices to pay the extra for your meat. That isn't possible for everyone. That is why we have foodbanks. A lot of people even struggle to pay for cheap food.
I would make the wording on food packaging more graphic. Like this xhicken got pumped with hormones to grow quickly or this pig never saw daylight in its short life. It would give more of a choice but would still be available for thise who can't afford anything else.
Astute
Well-Known Member
How about mentioning how the UK is ahead of the EU in a lot of animal welfare?
How about the EU making a trade deal with the USA? It was a good reason for us to stay in the EU earlier in this thread. So now you say we will drop our standards. How do you know that? Could you bring yourself to mention that the EU could lower their standards?
Of course not. This is what I meant about it becoming a stupid Brexit thing.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Actually it isn’t as the first paragraph referred to meat industry but no green fields here
New Report Says Danish Pigs Beaten Black and Blue
WE ANIMALS | Factory Farming - Pigs and Cows
About calves reared for veal | Compassion in World Farming
Help us end cruel food | Compassion in World Farming
Animal cruelty in Dutch animal agriculture and why this also concerns people outside the Netherlands – The Green Vegans
Animal abuse on Dutch mink farm exposed - Fur Free Alliance
About chickens farmed for meat | Compassion in World Farming
The real joke though is the Eu portrays itself as animal friendly. It introduces rules but routinely ignores them or makes prosecution difficult (though most countries such as Greece, Italy and Spain just ignore them anyway)
Oh and they let this lot in
Sign the Petition
Astute
Well-Known Member
Petition closed? Maybe too many signed too quickly.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Compassion in World Farming aim most of their virtiol at Europe and it’s rather disturbing practices.
European people in general have no interest in animal welfare. Countries such as Greece, Romania, Bulgaria, Spain and Italy rejoice and celebrate animal torture and view it as a form of entertainment.
CWF see leaving Eu as a potential opportunity to ban imports of Foie Gras as a start and Gove has indicated he will do it.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Yeah I am aware of low paid workers and have volunteered at foodbanks down here in Brighton. As I said, the answer is to move away from such meat-based diets.
I agree about the warnings but can't see the countries importing their products agreeing to that.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Moving away from meat is easier said than done.
If the EU signs up with a trade deal with the USA it will include their food. Otherwise there won't be a trade deal. If there is an agreement can countries not take it? Think it might be left to the consumer who would be informed where it came from. If it does then how much would come down to price?
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
Lords vote to stay in single market. Civil war in both parties to intensify after the commons vote I'd imagine.
Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
The vote is pretty meaningless other than showing how out of touch the lords are with the rest of the country, oh and going above their remit of not interfering in party manifestos.
Oh and while I’m at it they won’t tell you about how a lot of the lords get eu pensions that are very favorable shall we say. Ex eu commissioners such as mandelson as a great example.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
not really. Labour peers ignored the party line to abstain.
If the front bench abstain in the commons vote they'll be uproar.
Some similar goings on in the tory party.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
With all these votes I see masses of people taking to twitter to claim the will of the people is being ignored or that they voted to leave the single market, no deal etc. Their voting slip must have had a lot more options than mine did.
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
No matter how you try and sugar coat it, they are trying to water down Brexit. You can try to make it sound as cool as you like but I'm afraid it is glaringly obvious to everyone that this is about a lot more than just staying in the single market, or for 'the good of the country'.
This viewpoint is also backed up over 397 pages before this, and I am sure as shit if that option was on the ballot paper, we would still be seeing this rebellion today, there would just be a different excuse for trying to justify it.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
you should read comments made prior to the ballot by leavers such as Davis, Gove, Fox etc.
They all said contradictory things regarding what Brexit meant, Davis said in 2012 his preference would be to remain in the EU so what Brexit meant to people may have been clear to them in their own minds but there was not a general consensus and anyone who say there was/is is ignoring the evidence.
It would have been easier for everyone if what Brexit meant exactly had been spelled out prior to the referendum and they might be worth bearing in mind in future ballots.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
The referendum was whether to leave the EU not the single market. That vote was close, virtually 50/50 so at best you could assume is is that they’re out of touch with half the population and that’s assuming that people weren’t expecting to stay in the single market.
Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
The EU is the single market. How do you believe staying in the single market is leaving the EU?
Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
Just like any voting slip you vote for it had a name or a party or in this case a choice and using the old must of had more options than my ballot paper is just bunkum.
You quote the single market and again I ask how is leaving the Eu but staying in the single market possible? The single market is the EU.
Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
Lords are a revising chamber and in the general election both Labour and Tory clearly stated to leave SM and CU. The lords are not permitted to go against party manifestos.
The lords are full of ex EU payroll and pension benficaries though they never tell you that. Also works nicely for them to have cheap Labour at will from the EU for cheaper nannies and drivers and cleaners. They sadly don’t have the problem of lack of housing and gp appointments and school places. Wage compression. Etc.
I fully accept leaving the EU doesn’t benefit the lords or rich elistist business in general but their vote is meaningless as even arch remained lord Adonis admitted yesterday.